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Smallish 4-manual organs

Started by AnOrganCornucopia, February 21, 2012, 10:47:14 AM

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AnOrganCornucopia

I just can't understand why the still only 40-year-old N&B was simply broken up rather than moved East. It was also a far larger and presumably more powerful organ than even the Harrison-incarnation Sutton organ.

http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N13691 is the Hope-Jones to which I referred. Intriguing spec, and as most of the pipework was by Hele (and even included a mixture), it could have been rather nice. It does seem odd, though, that the Great is effectively a Choir/Solo organ, with the only semblance of a chorus on the Swell.

David Drinkell

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on February 29, 2012, 07:43:25 PM
I just can't understand why the still only 40-year-old N&B was simply broken up rather than moved East. It was also a far larger and presumably more powerful organ than even the Harrison-incarnation Sutton organ.

http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N13691 is the Hope-Jones to which I referred. Intriguing spec, and as most of the pipework was by Hele (and even included a mixture), it could have been rather nice. It does seem odd, though, that the Great is effectively a Choir/Solo organ, with the only semblance of a chorus on the Swell.

There wouldn't have been room for the big N&B at the east end of Jesus Chapel.  The organ wasn't lost at that time because the insides served as the basis for Rutt's organ at the City Temple in London and the case to a church in Portsmouth (I think), but both were destroyed in the Blitz.

The HJ/Hele at Ewell is not so unusual if you consider that organs in those days were regarded as crescendo machines - a trend started by Cavaille-Coll.  The Great supplied the foundation and the oter departments coloured it.

AnOrganCornucopia

Yet a Cavaillé-Coll will, except on the smallest instruments, have a complete chorus to mixture plus a good provision of reeds.

Interesting to hear what became of that case. Would the organ not have fitted in one of the transepts, near the choir?

David Drinkell

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 02, 2012, 01:49:52 AM
Yet a Cavaillé-Coll will, except on the smallest instruments, have a complete chorus to mixture plus a good provision of reeds.

Depends on your definition of smallest, although even without mixtures and reeds a Cavaille will, as you know, sound much richer than most English jobs (Father Willis possibly excepted).  The 4m CC at St-Roch, Paris, has no mixtures or reeds on the Grande, although plenty elsewhere to couple.

My point was that, from CC onwards, coupling was an essential part of registration.  Ralph Downes even maintained that most of the average Great was only used for climax effects.  I'm not sure that he was entirely correct about that, but he certainly identified a common practice.

The other point to bear in mind is based on English usage and rooted in choral accompaniment, probably in an orchestral style:  a lot of organs consisted of the stops a cathedral organist would use most often to accompany his choir, plus a big diapason to bump the hymns along.  That this approach to organ design was not ideal for smaller churches where choirs might be less competent and congregational participation more important does not seem to have occurred to people for a very long time!  Even purveyors of big choruses like Lewis and Binns fell into the trap.

And we are talking about a residence organ here, so the smaller and more orchestral effects might well be provided in greater profusion than in a church instrument.

Pierre Lauwers

Well, Cavaillé-Coll did not invent all ! The Crescendo-based tonal design was already emerging
during Bach's time, in his region, with the whitdrawal of the division of the organ in two parts
(Engchor versus Weitchor, i.e. the Principal chorus and the rest)  and the builder who summarized it in an integrated concept
was Eberhard Friedrich Walcker.
As for the couplers, the very last move, that is, having the reeds and mixtures "exported" towards enclosed divisions,
leaving the Great with only fundation stops, this was imagined by E.M. Skinner in the US, and nearly all the europeans
quickly followed.
One should not underestimate the influence of the US builders in Europe. As early as 1880, for example, a belgian builder,
Kerkhoff, who worked nearly only in Brussels and Liège, built his own version of the Roosevelt windchest.

Best wishes,
Pierre

pcnd5584

#25
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on March 03, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
Well, Cavaillé-Coll did not invent all ! The Crescendo-based tonal design was already emerging
during Bach's time, in his region, with the whitdrawal of the division of the organ in two parts
(Engchor versus Weitchor, i.e. the Principal chorus and the rest)  and the builder who summarized it in an integrated concept
was Eberhard Friedrich Walcker.
As for the couplers, the very last move, that is, having the reeds and mixtures "exported" towards enclosed divisions,
leaving the Great with only fundation stops, this was imagined by E.M. Skinner in the US, and nearly all the europeans
quickly followed.
One should not underestimate the influence of the US builders in Europe. As early as 1880, for example, a belgian builder,
Kerkhoff, who worked nearly only in Brussels and Liège, built his own version of the Roosevelt windchest.

Best wishes,
Pierre

Indeed - although I would have thought that it was more G. Donald Harrison who left us with reedless G.O. divisions - something which I dislike greatly. (However wonderful the chorus-work might be at Groton, Mass., I would gladly exchange a fair proportion of the rest of the instrument for a family of decent, unenclosed chorus trumpets.)

The problem with reedless G.O. sections is that it leaves an unsatisfying climax, particularly if there is no Bombarde division. In addition, it causes a dilemma with French symphonic music, where composers relied extensively upon the Pedal and G.O. reeds for all big effects.

The difficulty is not entirely solved when the reeds are present, but enclosed - as at King's College Chapel, Cambridge* or All Saints', Margaret Street. There is just something more thrilling about a family of well-voiced chorus reeds, speaking unimpeded by expression boxes (or the base of a choir screen). Last week-end I was engaged to play for a visiting choir at Salisbury. The G.O. reeds are indeed quite exciting there - although (perhaps surprisingly to some here), I felt that the family of Trumpets at Exeter Cathedral were superior in overall effect. I suspect that this is largely due to the superb Double Trumpet. The Trombone (16ft.) at Salisbury I found to be a little 'gritty' - if that makes any sense.



* In fairness, given the high pressure on which these Trombe speak (approximately 450mm - heavier than quite a few Tuba ranks), they are probably safer where they are, in the Solo expression box.
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

AnOrganCornucopia

#26
St Nicholas Whitehaven (a 3-manual H&H, with a Solo but no Choir) had a reedless Great in 1904, when George Donald Harrison was a fifteen-year-old schoolboy! The reeds were provided by the Solo 8ft and 4ft Tubas, which of course sat on a separate chest: there was a Tubas to Great coupler, although the Tubas had to be drawn for this to work: did this mean that you also had the Tubas sounding on the Solo or was it a transfer coupler?

The Great nevertheless had the usual Harrison Harmonics (and no other mixture): presumably this was placed here so that the reeds would take on a different character according to whether they were used in a solo or chorus capacity. The Great was unusual in that, while it had a diapason chorus of 2 x O.D. 8', Octave 4', Octave Quint 2 2/3' and Superoctave 2', plus Geigens at 16', 8' and 4',  it also had an extremely complete flute chorus, consisting of Quintaton 32', Double Claribel Flute 16', Wald Flute 8', Rohr Flute 8', Stopped Quint 5 1/3', Hohl Flute 4' and Harmonic Piccolo 2'.  The 32', 5 1/3' and 4' flutes could have been useful for Messiaen, who often called for such stops at 16', 2 2/3 and sometimes 2' pitch. I rather suspect (having known the odd 8ft example) that the Double Claribel Flute would have been too powerful to be substituted for the Saint-Trinité Positif Quintaton 16p and of course the 2 2/3 was of diapason tone (although I have heard a 1920s Harrison Twelfth and Superoctave used, with a 16ft Bourdon, most successfully in Messiaen's Prière après la Communion from the Livre du Saint-Sacrement), but it would have been entirely possible to play up an octave. I presume that the reason for this remarkable provision of flutes was to provide something of a Choir organ (the Solo flutes, I assume, being much too loud for choral accompaniment). The Swell was mostly conventional, except that there was an Octave Gamba 4' where one might have expected a Principal, and a Cor Anglais where one might have expected to find a Vox Humana. Presumably the C. A. could be used with or against the Choir-within-the-Great flutes to colour things up.

The Solo, perhaps surprisingly, had no 16ft reed, though it did have strings 16/8/8. The Pedal was entirely conventional, with four ranks: a 32/16/8 Major Bass/Open Wood/Octave Wood, a 16/8 Violone/Violoncello, a 16/8 Bourdon/Flute and a 16/8 Ophicleide/Tromba.

Sadly, the church was completely destroyed by fire in 1971: the whole building collapsed, leaving only the tower standing. Needless to say, nothing whatsoever remained of the organ, which was, along with the Willis at St Bees, considered to be one of Colonel George Dixon's finest designs. While it would be an audacious designer who had an organ built to such a specification today, I would have loved to have heard this organ, particularly with that 32.16.8.8.5 1/3.4.2 flute chorus on the Great!

There is also in Whitehaven, in St James' church, a Dixon-designed 1909 Norman & Beard of very orchestral (but not Hope-Jones-like) specification, with three manuals and 26 stops - this thankfully survives intact and is, I understand, shortly to be restored. Again, the chorus reeds (8ft Harmonic Tromba, 4ft Octave Tromba) are to be found on the top manual, the Orchestral/Bombarde (the two chests each having their own separate sets of couplers - it's effectively a 4-manual organ with only three claviers) - and again, no choir organ. The Great has no mixture, but an 8/4/2 2/3/2ft diapason chorus (which is rich but not opaque), underpinned by a 16ft Rohr Bordun and accompanied by an 8ft Geigen and Claribel Flute. The Swell stoplist is also intriguing: Horn Diapason 8', Lieblich Gedeckt 8', Echo Gamba 8', Gemshorn 4', Mixture III (15.19.22), Corno di Bassetto 16', Trumpet 8'. Predictably, the Swell has an octave coupler, a unison off and an extra top octave. The main strings are to be found on the Orchestral organ, along with an 8ft Oboe, an 8ft Hohl Flute and 4ft Concert Flute. The Pedal is pretty conventional: Open Wood 16', Sub Bass 16', Octave Wood 8', Flute 8', Trombone 16'. The last, I was told, is quite thrilling but not absolutely overpowering.

Norman & Beard's Flutes and Trombas are not to be confused with those of Harrison & Harrison: they are generally brighter and more colourful. The reeds are very powerful but not at all lacking harmonics, perhaps sitting between Willis and Compton. I understand that N&B's reed voicers were a father and son team by the name of Rundle, who apparently used red wax in places to dull certain of the less pleasant harmonics that can be present in very hard-blown reeds without sacrificing brightness of tone. I can certainly vouch for the effectiveness of these reeds elsewhere.

Sadly, I have never heard so much as a recording of either of these two Whitehaven organs: much of my information on them came from the late David Sanger. However, I am reasonably familiar with N&B's work of this era and am sick fed up of having to disabuse people of the notion that they were the same thing as HN&B in the latter days, builders of cheap, poor-quality organs. They were certainly not cheap and their quality has never been surpassed: many still work well after many years' service. One near me still has its original exhaust pneumatic action, which still goes like the clappers (and no missing or sluggish notes anywhere) even though it's had no attention since 1926. Find me a neoclassical tracker job that sounds half as nice or capable of lasting half as long so reliably... never mind matching the precise, consistent weighting, feedback and lightning-fast attack of the N&B Ex.Pn. action.

I would dare to suggest that Norman & Beard/Hill, Norman & Beard, 1890-1935, were the finest organbuilders this country has ever seen. I know I rave about other organs (specifically by Willis and Walker) but none have the sheer completeness of N&B to me. Willis' can be rather restrictive (fabulous symphonic organs, useless Baroque organs), pre-electric-action-era Walkers generally have poorly-designed actions (unreliable if pneumatic, horribly heavy and inconsistent if tracker), Harrisons can be rather opaque tonally... N&B had no such weaknesses (aside from the Hope-Jones organs they built - fabulous actions, tonally an acquired taste). If anyone on this forum is lucky enough to be custodian of a N&B or pre-war HN&B which is in original condition), please, I beg you: preserve and maintain it as it is and do not seek to alter it (unless it is to add pipework or general pistons in a sympathetic manner which does not compromise the integrity of the console, action or chests, if such a thing is possible).

For the sake of further research, here is are the NPOR surveys for the two organs in Whitehaven:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N01636 (the H&H in St Nicholas)
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N03540 (the N&B in St James).

David Drinkell

GDH maintained that the Great reeds were provided by the Bombarde - logical enough if there is one!

I have no qualms about enclosing the Great reeds (or, come to that, the flues), provided that the effect with the box open is the same as an unenclosed chorus.  I don't subscribe to the opinion that you can always tell - it depends on placement and construction.  In these parts, for example, tubas tend to be enclosed (all three in this Province are).  A couple of blocks away, the 50s Casavant at Cochrane Street Church has one of the best tubas I've ever heard.  David Wells, on a visit, reckoned it must be a Harrison (interesting, because the previous organ was a large 3m Harrison, apparently killed off by North American heating systems, as were a lot of slider-chest organs, and both Casavants and the organist who was there at the time of the installation maintain that none of it was used in the new one except the facade).  There is no doubt at all that when the shutters are open it sounds just like an unenclosed tuba should.

I think the Trombas at King's would have been voiced on a lower pressure if they'd been unenclosed.

Absence of Great reeds is certainly a handicap if there is no practical alternative.   It's no use relying on the Swell reeds, because they're the Swell reeds and that, to a large extent, is that.   On the aforementioned Cochrane Street Casavant, there are no Great reeds, and the Tuba is of much the same tone as the Swell  reeds, but louder - they're all fairly bright trumpets.  You therefore have no choice about your chorus reed tone.  The same thing obtains up the road at the Basilica.  The cathedral organ has 8 and 4 Great reeds (and octave couplers), plus Double Trumpet, Cornopean, Oboe and Vox in the Swell and a Tuba on the Solo - and they each have their own character.  The Great 8', despite being called 'Tromba', is quite as lively as a mid-period Father Willis and in the bass is quite blasphemous (as my Belfast friend Stephen Hamill would say).  There is thus a very comprehensive choice of reed choruses, which I find makes it easier to get the right ambience in different styles when compared to the other two jobs.

pcnd5584

#28
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
St Nicholas Whitehaven (a 3-manual H&H, with a Solo but no Choir) had a reedless Great in 1904, when George Donald Harrison was a fifteen-year-old schoolboy! The reeds were provided by the Solo 8ft and 4ft Tubas, which of course sat on a separate chest: there was a Tubas to Great coupler, although the Tubas had to be drawn for this to work: did this mean that you also had the Tubas sounding on the Solo or was it a transfer coupler?

And I wonder how much of this was simply to allow the stop-list to appear 'different' or exciting, in order for this relatively unknown firm (at that time) to secure its first large contract. As far as I can recall, neither Arthur nor George Dixon advocated such an idea on any subsequent instrument of comparable size.

With regard to the Tubas, it is likely that the stop Tubas to Great was a transfer, not a coupler (since there was, in addition, a Solo to Great). Furthermore, two years later, at Saint Martin's Church, Birmingham, the first recorded instance of the transfer [Great] Reeds on Choir appears; this device was to become a standard feature of Harrison organs for many years*



* As recently as 1985, the Harrison organ at Exeter Cathedral was given the transfers Great Reeds on Pedal and Great Reeds on Choir. However, in this case, the reed chest was connected to the flue soundboards mechanically, so the provision of this facility with the existing mechanism was not entirely straightforward.

Saint John the Baptist, Cirencester (H&H, 2009), is an even more recent example.



Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
The Great nevertheless had the usual Harrison Harmonics (and no other mixture): presumably this was placed here so that the reeds would take on a different character according to whether they were used in a solo or chorus capacity. The Great was unusual in that, while it had a diapason chorus of 2 x O.D. 8', Octave 4', Octave Quint 2 2/3' and Superoctave 2', plus Geigens at 16', 8' and 4',  it also had an extremely complete flute chorus, consisting of Quintaton 32', Double Claribel Flute 16', Wald Flute 8', Rohr Flute 8', Stopped Quint 5 1/3', Hohl Flute 4' and Harmonic Piccolo 2'.  The 32', 5 1/3' and 4' flutes could have been useful for Messiaen, who often called for such stops at 16', 2 2/3 and sometimes 2' pitch. I rather suspect (having known the odd 8ft example) that the Double Claribel Flute would have been too powerful to be substituted for the Saint-Trinité Positif Quintaton 16p and of course the 2 2/3 was of diapason tone (although I have heard a 1920s Harrison Twelfth and Superoctave used, with a 16ft Bourdon, most successfully in Messiaen's Prière après la Communion from the Livre du Saint-Sacrement), but it would have been entirely possible to play up an octave. I presume that the reason for this remarkable provision of flutes was to provide something of a Choir organ (the Solo flutes, I assume, being much too loud for choral accompaniment). The Swell was mostly conventional, except that there was an Octave Gamba 4' where one might have expected a Principal, and a Cor Anglais where one might have expected to find a Vox Humana. Presumably the C. A. could be used with or against the Choir-within-the-Great flutes to colour things up.

Sadly, due to the unfortunate destruction of this instrument, we con only offer conjecture about how it sounded. However, basing an opinion on other H&H instruments from roughly the same period, I suspect that, whist the pitches may have been present, the voicing and tonal balance of these stops would have been the antithesis of those sounds which Messiaen had in mind.


Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
The Solo, perhaps surprisingly, had no 16ft reed, though it did have strings 16/8/8. The Pedal was entirely conventional, with four ranks: a 32/16/8 Major Bass/Open Wood/Octave Wood, a 16/8 Violone/Violoncello, a 16/8 Bourdon/Flute and a 16/8 Ophicleide/Tromba.

Sadly, the church was completely destroyed by fire in 1971: the whole building collapsed, leaving only the tower standing. Needless to say, nothing whatsoever remained of the organ, which was, along with the Willis at St Bees, considered to be one of Colonel George Dixon's finest designs. While it would be an audacious designer who had an organ built to such a specification today, I would have loved to have heard this organ, particularly with that 32.16.8.8.5 1/3.4.2 flute chorus on the Great!

Actually there is a little more left than this. Type the church name into a search bar on 'Google', hit enter, then search for images (the address is somewhat lengthy, so I have not copied it here).

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
There is also in Whitehaven, in St James' church, a Dixon-designed 1909 Norman & Beard of very orchestral (but not Hope-Jones-like) specification, with three manuals and 26 stops - this thankfully survives intact and is, I understand, shortly to be restored. Again, the chorus reeds (8ft Harmonic Tromba, 4ft Octave Tromba) are to be found on the top manual, the Orchestral/Bombarde (the two chests each having their own separate sets of couplers - it's effectively a 4-manual organ with only three claviers) - and again, no choir organ. The Great has no mixture, but an 8/4/2 2/3/2ft diapason chorus (which is rich but not opaque), underpinned by a 16ft Rohr Bordun and accompanied by an 8ft Geigen and Claribel Flute. The Swell stoplist is also intriguing: Horn Diapason 8', Lieblich Gedeckt 8', Echo Gamba 8', Gemshorn 4', Mixture III (15.19.22), Corno di Bassetto 16', Trumpet 8'. Predictably, the Swell has an octave coupler, a unison off and an extra top octave. The main strings are to be found on the Orchestral organ, along with an 8ft Oboe, an 8ft Hohl Flute and 4ft Concert Flute. The Pedal is pretty conventional: Open Wood 16', Sub Bass 16', Octave Wood 8', Flute 8', Trombone 16'. The last, I was told, is quite thrilling but not absolutely overpowering.

Norman & Beard's Flutes and Trombas are not to be confused with those of Harrison & Harrison: they are generally brighter and more colourful. The reeds are very powerful but not at all lacking harmonics, perhaps sitting between Willis and Compton. I understand that N&B's reed voicers were a father and son team by the name of Rundle, who apparently used red wax in places to dull certain of the less pleasant harmonics that can be present in very hard-blown reeds without sacrificing brightness of tone. I can certainly vouch for the effectiveness of these reeds elsewhere.

Sadly, I have never heard so much as a recording of either of these two Whitehaven organs: much of my information on them came from the late David Sanger. However, I am reasonably familiar with N&B's work of this era and am sick fed up of having to disabuse people of the notion that they were the same thing as HN&B in the latter days, builders of cheap, poor-quality organs. They were certainly not cheap and their quality has never been surpassed: many still work well after many years' service. One near me still has its original exhaust pneumatic action, which still goes like the clappers (and no missing or sluggish notes anywhere) even though it's had no attention since 1926. Find me a neoclassical tracker job that sounds half as nice or capable of lasting half as long so reliably... never mind matching the precise, consistent weighting, feedback and lightning-fast attack of the N&B Ex.Pn. action.

I would dare to suggest that Norman & Beard/Hill, Norman & Beard, 1890-1935, were the finest organbuilders this country has ever seen. I know I rave about other organs (specifically by Willis and Walker) but none have the sheer completeness of N&B to me. Willis' can be rather restrictive (fabulous symphonic organs, useless Baroque organs), pre-electric-action-era Walkers generally have poorly-designed actions (unreliable if pneumatic, horribly heavy and inconsistent if tracker), Harrisons can be rather opaque tonally... N&B had no such weaknesses (aside from the Hope-Jones organs they built - fabulous actions, tonally an acquired taste). If anyone on this forum is lucky enough to be custodian of a N&B or pre-war HN&B which is in original condition), please, I beg you: preserve and maintain it as it is and do not seek to alter it (unless it is to add pipework or general pistons in a sympathetic manner which does not compromise the integrity of the console, action or chests, if such a thing is possible).

For the sake of further research, here is are the NPOR surveys for the two organs in Whitehaven:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N01636 (the H&H in St Nicholas)
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N03540 (the N&B in St James).

It is true that examples of the work of Norman & Beard from this period display excellent workmanship and superb voicing. However, due to their close links with Hope-Jones, I am not convinced that many of their instruments (from this era) are even as musically versatile as those by Harrison. The foundation work strikes me as very solid - and with little in the way of upperwork or chorus work. Of course I realise that this was somewhat typical of the period, but I would suggest that Norman & Beard organs built at this time had even less of either than did instruments by some of their competitors.

Whilst I do not particularly like 'vintage' H&H organs, two things cannot be denied: firstly, all their organs, both inside and out, were models of perfection, showing superb workmanship and high-quality voicing (in the style of the period). Secondly, Arthur never lost sight of the importance of chorus work on his instruments. Most of his larger organs were given two compound stops on the G.O. and, if one ignores the large Open Diapason and the 'Harmonics', the chorus, based on the Second Open Diapason, up to the quint Mixture (15-19-22-26-29), is actually quite a good sound.

Certainly I would not wish to state that either the voicing or workmanship of an Arthur (and Harry) Harrison organ is inferior to those of Norman & Beard.
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

AnOrganCornucopia

Norman & Beard choruses are usually excellent: the Large Open is not as opaque a sound as an H&H one but big and rich in tone, the Small is a nice, versatile, warm stop, the Principal and Fifteenth quite bright, usually with at least a 3-rank quint mixture to cap it. The Hope-Jones influence was really very little felt in the church organs: E. W. Norman and G. W. Beard were men with their own very forthright opinions who often quarrelled with the mad Merseyside maverick. As far as I know, N&B never put a Diaphone or a Tibia in a church organ either. I rather liked having the former when I tinkered around on the Compton organ at Downside Abbey a few years ago. Here, however, is a marvellous example of what could happen when (Hill) Norman & Beard, Robert Hope-Jones' posthumous influence and the most brilliant pupil of Max Reger and Karl Straube coincided: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VUBSUfFls8

I find N&B organs more musical to the ear than the vintage Arthur Harrison war-horses. I also think they have more character. Harrison had a way of eliminating all semblance of character in his search for perfection: a tendency which dogs Harrison organs even today. The N&B is clearly more a development of the old English Classical organ and certainly reflects the firm's founders' training at Walker. The Romsey Walker is something of a precursor: the N&Bs I've encountered have not lost that clarity. N&B also certainly knew how to voice a Stopped Diapason... but there can be no doubt that N&B Trombas are far more pleasant and indeed useful than those of Arthur Harrison. Their open flutes are nicer too IMO.

I'd like to get the chance to hear some of Hele's better organs. I know they built some horrors but I am told by your friend in Plymouth that some of them are very fine indeed, broadly comparable to N&B of the era but with reeds often bought in from France...

revtonynewnham

Hi

The Norman & beard that I used to play sometime - dating from around the early 20th century - was, I suspect, still influenced to some degree by Hope-Jones - even if it didn't contain any specifically HJ tonalities.  the most obvious link was the Large Open of the Great, which (it being a fairly small 2 manual) would stand on its own against full swell with copuler and the box open!  I used it to substitute for the Tuba in the Wilcocks arrangement of O Come all ye Faithful!  Very similar to H_J style diapasons.  Unfortunately, it saw more use than would be ideal as many bases of the small open were off speech - they were on a pneumatic off-note chest in the Aisle frontage - simple enough to repair - except the 16ft Open Wood stood immediately in front of the face boards - rather poor design.

The Large Open was, I suspect, an addition - it was at the front of the great chest, just above the console, with the basses above and behind the organist's head, mounted on the screen that separated the organ from the choir stalls.  Very weird to play.

Stop list at http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=E00428

Every Blessing

Tony

pcnd5584

#31
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 02:02:05 PM
Norman & Beard choruses are usually excellent: the Large Open is not as opaque a sound as an H&H one but big and rich in tone, the Small is a nice, versatile, warm stop, the Principal and Fifteenth quite bright, usually with at least a 3-rank quint mixture to cap it.

Quint mixture - could you list a few examples, please? Those which I have encountered from this era contained either a third-sounding rank, or (worse) a copy of an Arthur Harrison 'Harmonics'. (Rushworth & Dreaper did the same thing during this era, on some of their larger instruments.)


Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 02:02:05 PM
I find N&B organs more musical to the ear than the vintage Arthur Harrison war-horses. I also think they have more character. Harrison had a way of eliminating all semblance of character in his search for perfection: a tendency which dogs Harrison organs even today. The N&B is clearly more a development of the old English Classical organ and certainly reflects the firm's founders' training at Walker. The Romsey Walker is something of a precursor: the N&Bs I've encountered have not lost that clarity. N&B also certainly knew how to voice a Stopped Diapason... but there can be no doubt that N&B Trombas are far more pleasant and indeed useful than those of Arthur Harrison. Their open flutes are nicer too IMO.

I have had the pleasure of playing the Romsey Walker on many occasions - including both recital and service work. I can assure you that it is an entirely different instrument to anything by Norman and Beard which I have encountered so far - which, for me, precludes it being regarded as a precursor to any of their organs. It is a most musical instrument, with clear, unforced choruses, beautiful flutes and generally good English reeds. I do wish that the G.O. reeds had not been revoiced some years ago, though. Oh - and I would remove the Mander Tuba; aside from the fact that I do not like such stops, this one really does not fit with the character of the organ.

However, your comment regarding chorus reeds is closer to the mark. I think that it is fair to say that Trombe by Norman & Beard were of a rather more sociable tone than those by Harrison.


Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 02:02:05 PM
I'd like to get the chance to hear some of Hele's better organs. I know they built some horrors but I am told by your friend in Plymouth that some of them are very fine indeed, broadly comparable to N&B of the era but with reeds often bought in from France...

Some are indeed quite good. Saint John the Baptist, Penzance, is reasonable, although the G.O. could do with a compound stop and a flue double, the building would certainly take it. (Yes, I have spent quite a few hours playing it.)
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

makemoreandmore

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 02:02:05 PM
  N&B Trombas are far more pleasant 

Our N+B only received its Gt Trumpet in 1965 (HNB) when both the Swell Horn and Oboe were revoiced. With the box open, there is hardly any difference between Horn and Trumpet, and I am toying with the idea of swapping the Trumpet for a period N+B Tromba, this being a cheaper option than having all the reeds revoiced back to their 1910 original.