Author Topic: Has the Church and religion lost its way?  (Read 538 times)

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David Pinnegar

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Has the Church and religion lost its way?
« on: July 22, 2017, 10:47:46 AM »
I'm wondering if the drop-off of interest in organs, expressed in this forum and according to others in Organ groups on Facebook, and the lack of response to Martin Renshaw's call to action is indicative of something else.

When I was growing up, church services rarely touched on the Acts of the Apostles, and focussed more upon Jesus' teachings about God. It was murmured that the Acts of the Apostles were in some way troublesome and not talked about much. Likewise much of the Epistles.

Now wherever I look the Church seems to focus upon the Church and its supremacy and upon worship of its teacher, rather than upon worship of God.

To those not involved in Charismatic nor Evangelical movements I wonder if that is seen by most, and rejected, for what it is.

It is no surprise therefore that demand for organs in Churches in worship of God is declining with the passing of those generations whose focus was upon God rather than the Teacher.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

revtonynewnham

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Re: Has the Church and religion lost its way?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 08:33:45 AM »
Hi David

I'm really not sure what you mean by this post.  Is the "Teacher" that you refer to Jesus?  Or is it a reference to St Paul?

Assuming tht it is Jesus, then basic trinitarian theology says firmly that God the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are one, so there's not too much of a problem.  Have you actually looked closely at the lyrics of some of the more recent worship songs?  I agree tht there's a lot of poor stuff about - just as there are poor hymns in pretty well every earlier hymnbook! But most is at least reasonably theologically based.  Have you taken  the trouble to look at the statements of faith of the Evangelical & Charistmatic groups that you seem to be criticising?  It's too easy to "knock" things that don't fit with your personal likes & dislikes - or that you don't fully understand.

Yes - there are problems in the 21st century church.  Nothin new there, and it goes far, far deeper than worhip styles.  One big problem that  I see is a reduction in Bible reading, both privately, and more significntly, during worship.  Too many churches have only one, or maybe two, short readings - and we wonder why  so many Christiians mis-understand their faith!

Enough now - I need to get ready for church

Every Blessing

Tony

David Pinnegar

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Re: Has the Church and religion lost its way?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 05:14:18 PM »
Modern worship songs - actually whenever I come across them I want to run out of the Church screaming. And I doubt if many who sing them will ever be much interested in organs. Perhaps http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,26.msg9854/topicseen.html#msg9854 answers exactly that.

The trouble I perceive is that the modern literal interpretations lead to a worship of Jesus in his personage.

A trinitarian view is quite possible without worship of the person of Jesus. It's capable of interpreting "Who are my mother and my brothers?" and does not have to result in the worship of Jesus, Son of Man, as God.

For me, Jesus Christ Son of God is the one who hears his father's word and does it. In that is the trinity but the trinity does not require worship of Jesus as God, as the Creator.

The Creator, the eternal, invisible, everywhere and all powerful is an understanding in the image of our understanding, and in our capacity to understand, and through the communication of the idea, the spirit of the Creator we are able to progress the Creation at one with it and as Jesus taught.

I do not get on with the "Jesus loves you" mantra.

"Master Master I love you and I know that you love me so much that you will do my homework for me won't you?"

"No I won't" he said to the soldiers who all died 100 years ago in the First World War with bibles in their breast pockets.

For me and I believe for many contemplation of God is just a little bit more complicated, and rather deeper, than modern evangelistic arm waving worship songs might otherwise try to seduce me with.

And for that rather stick-in-the-mud reason I prefer an understanding of God accompanied by an organ than by the jingoism of the Jesus Cult which says that the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity.

The Creator is the Creator and is the Creator of all. The breath of life is that which gives life to all who breathe. For me the direction of modern Christianity has driven into a corner and left the mainstream in the middle of the room.

Best wishes

David P
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 05:15:50 PM by David Pinnegar »
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

revtonynewnham

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Re: Has the Church and religion lost its way?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2017, 08:31:10 AM »
Hi David

You may dislike worship songs - that's fine, it's your choice - but that doesn't make them wrong or inferior to traditional worship - just different.

Your prefered traditional worship style is, of course, firmly grounded in the belief that Jesus Christ is divine - is part of the Godhead, as any theological basics book willl attempt to explain.  The concept of the Trinity is, in many ways, one of those mysteries of faith that mere mortals can never fully understand, but downrating Jesus to a "mere" obedient servant is bordering on heresey and leads ultimately to unitarianism and similar belief patterns that are outside of mainstream Christianity.  Maybe, next time you go to a church service, you should look carefully at the words of the creed before reciting them.

Keep praying and aask God to help you understand - and one day, He will.

Every Blessing

Tony

David Pinnegar

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Re: Has the Church and religion lost its way?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2017, 11:38:37 AM »
Well the rise of the Jesus Cult and its overpowering of traditional Christianity in the flourishing of worship songs is precisely why the organ is in danger and disappearing.

I believe there are many more interpretations of the texts than the Jesus Cult espouses and that the concept and power of the Trinity holds good on far more intellectual levels.

Hebrew words could themselves have five meanings and in mediaeval times people were expected to seek meanings of the texts on five different levels.

A story I overhead at my Son's confirmation explains what I mean by the shift towards a Jesus Cult. A retired bishop conducting the service explained to someone afterwards that at the beginning of his ministry he went to a parish and the parishioners asked him "What's all this you talk about Jesus - your predecessor talked about God".

Whilst out of fashion, my beliefs are with those of the former priest.

There's something very rational that I'm looking at in choosing perspective on my vision of God through his son. We criticise Islam for worship of Mohammed but as Christians don't see the beam in our own eyes. Not until we can see the mote in our own eyes as Christians in worship of the Creator can we open the eyes of friends seeking the Creator through different traditions.

I spent my teens among an evangelical "Jesus loves you" group of friends and Jesus loved them so much that he didn't protect them from ills which claimed their lives early. The simplistic view of "evangelical Christianity" is intellectually shallow and unsatisfying, which is why it is unattractive to the mainstream who no longer go to church. In its promotion that the god of Islam is not the god of Christianity it demonstrates itself as being wholly misconstrued.

When in the real world of the mainstream we meet Muslims, Hindus, Hebrews and Buddhists who are devout, worthy and understanding of that something which we understand as the Creator, the jingoistic promotion of the Jesus Cult is seen to be only a business for the promotion of the cult.

Only when the worship of God as the primary focus comes back into fashion will organs be in demand and people will understand the power of the vision of God through the eyes of Jesus. Only then will peoples of different faiths be touched by the Holy Spirit to come together in understandings of peace.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

 


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