Author Topic: Minimum specification of small organ  (Read 49683 times)

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organforumadmin

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Minimum specification of small organ
« on: April 17, 2010, 01:13:46 PM »
Hi!

I'm wondering if one can design a really exciting organ with minimum spec?

Recit
Salicional
Voix Celeste
Principal
Cornet V - in seperately registerable ranks
Trompette
Bombarde

Grande Orgue
Montre 8
Principal 4
Bourdon 8
Flute 4
Fifteenth 2
Sifflot 1
En Chamade trumpet 8

Positif
Quintadina 8Flute 8Flute 4Tierce Piccolo 1Cromorne 8

Pedal
Bourdon
Bombarde from Recit

Oh dear - that comes to over 20 ranks . . . £500k ? One might enclose Recit and Positif . . .

Temperament - Kellner or D'Alembert?

Best wishes

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« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 04:50:20 PM by organforumadmin »

KB7DQH

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2010, 02:11:17 PM »
We are talking about "small" organs, right ??? ??? ???

Well, I gave  this one a listen today...http://members.cox.net/subbass16/opus8.htm

It sounds a bunch bigger than it might appear at first glance... A couple times I had to tell myself I wasn't in Lagerquist Hall 8) 8) 8)  and I give much credit to the skill of the organist.  This instrument has no couplers or combination action,  the organist making registration changes between verse changes in the hymns... the "hard" way ;)   Moreover, she chose to register the instrument differently for each piece of music for which the organ was used, and during the service  it got used a lot!   And I still believe it would take a great many services to hear all this instrument is capable of. 

The "post-accident" rebuilt instrument came in at USD$125,000 8) 

And USD well-spent!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 10:12:29 PM by KB7DQH »
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

organforumadmin

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2010, 04:52:40 PM »
We are talking about "small" organs, right ??? ??? ???
Will have to give this one a listen one day...http://members.cox.net/subbass16/opus8.htm
The "post-accident" rebuilt instrument came in at USD$125,000 8)

Hi!

Interesting. It would be super if you might be able to quote a stop list.

So can anyone reduce my bigger "smal" spec and still retain diversity and excitement?

Best wishes

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KB7DQH

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2010, 05:42:36 PM »
HTML can do strange things... Assuming your internet works like mine, the link brings up a picture at the top of the page of the completed instrument, followed by the stoplist, (which I copied and hand-typed below 8)

Pedal                           Manual I                            Manual II

Subbass         16         Stopped Flute  16              Chimney Flute    8
Principal           8          Principal             8              Gamba               8
Stopped flute   8          Stopped Flute   4               Celeste              8
Choral Bass     4          Octave               4               Principal             4
Bassoon         16         Chimney Flute    4               Nasard            2 2/3
Bassoon           8         Octave               2               Block Flute          2
                                    Mixture           III                 Tierce             1 3/5
                                    Trumpet             8               Clarinet               8




 then below a picture of what the organ looks like after a motor vehicle drives through the wall of the church,  thence the console, and comes to rest beyond, displacing a few rows of pews in addition to the organ...



Links on that page will take you to other news articles and photos of that unfortunate event...

Eric
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 09:16:37 PM by KB7DQH »
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

revtonynewnham

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2010, 09:08:12 AM »
Hi

Try and get hold of the 3 volumes of "the Classical Organ in Britain"  (Positif Press) - they are full of stop lists of small tracker organs.

The stop list really depends on what you want to play.  The minimum is 1 stop -  Open Diapason 8ft (or a Stopped Diapason of Stopped Flute)!

Every Blessing

Tony

NonPlayingAnorak

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2010, 12:57:53 AM »
Hi!

I'm wondering if one can design a really exciting organ with minimum spec?

Recit
Salicional
Voix Celeste
Principal
Cornet V - in seperately registerable ranks
Trompette
Bombarde

Grande Orgue
Montre 8
Principal 4
Bourdon 8
Flute 4
Fifteenth 2
Sifflot 1
En Chamade trumpet 8

Positif
Quintadina 8Flute 8Flute 4Tierce Piccolo 1Cromorne 8

Pedal
Bourdon
Bombarde from Recit

Oh dear - that comes to over 20 ranks . . . £500k ? One might enclose Recit and Positif . . .

Temperament - Kellner or D'Alembert?

Best wishes

Forum Admin

Simples... http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=P00563

There simply never has been a 16-stop organ that versatile before. It does pretty much everything convincingly. Now, it just needs an acoustic to speak into...

KB7DQH

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2010, 10:59:53 AM »
Listening to an MP3 of this gem...  http://www.magle.dk/pipe-organ-jorlunde-church.html

Click on the links and give it a listen... 

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

NonPlayingAnorak

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 09:51:22 AM »
Listening to an MP3 of this gem...  http://www.magle.dk/pipe-organ-jorlunde-church.html

Click on the links and give it a listen... 

Eric
KB7DQH

Still not as versatile as the Petersham organ, judging by the spec - more stops, but only two manuals, not three... I'm currently at college, deprived of sound, so I shall have to reserve judgment on the instrument's sound - but I can comment on the instrument's appearance. What a pity that what would still appear to be a very good little organ has been given such a horrible 1960s-style non-case (tone cabinet?), especially in the historic and aesthetically sensitive surroundings of a beautiful 11th century church. Something truly wonderful could have been achieved, but, by bringing architects into the equation, they've spoiled it with a piece of horrible modernism. This is one of my pet hates - as a would-be architect myself, I aim to upset the applecart comprehensively, with a big anti-modernist bent. Such ugliness is unforgivable: the Richard Rodgers and Norman Fosters and Le Corbusiers of this world should never have been allowed to practice as architects... it particularly sticks in my gullet when they, having foisted such ugliness on the world, then attack the likes of Quinlan Terry and Prince Charles for exposing them for what they are!   >:(

Bring back the old concepts of elegance, beauty, human scale... I'm no classicist, indeed I loathe most Classical architecture, and would gladly raze most Wren churches to the ground, I'm more of a Norman/Gothic man, with a soft spot for the Victorian Arts & Crafts, but the logic and proportion of classical architecture still embodies a lesson which modern architects could do with learning.
/rant

 :)

KB7DQH

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2010, 11:12:57 AM »
Well, the in-progress installation herehttp://acusticumorgan.com/specification
 is nothing to look at either ;) ;)  but based on the artists conception it seems to visually fit better than
the Jorlunde church organ...

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

pcnd5584

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 12:23:32 AM »
Hi!

I'm wondering if one can design a really exciting organ with minimum spec?

Recit
Salicional
Voix Celeste
Principal
Cornet V - in seperately registerable ranks
Trompette
Bombarde

Grande Orgue
Montre 8
Principal 4
Bourdon 8
Flute 4
Fifteenth 2
Sifflot 1
En Chamade trumpet 8

Positif
Quintadina 8Flute 8Flute 4Tierce Piccolo 1Cromorne 8

Pedal
Bourdon
Bombarde from Recit

Oh dear - that comes to over 20 ranks . . . £500k ? One might enclose Recit and Positif . . .

Temperament - Kellner or D'Alembert?

Best wishes

Forum Admin

Simples... http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=P00563

There simply never has been a 16-stop organ that versatile before. It does pretty much everything convincingly. Now, it just needs an acoustic to speak into...

I am not sure about this.

To take the Récit first: there is a solitary Principal 4ft., but no 8ft. Diapason - or even an 8ft. Flute (it would be extremely unusual for the Cornet to sound below G20 at the lowest). The Bombarde is presumably of 16ft. pitch. This could be rather heavy in a small instrument. There is no quiet 8ft. reed, such as an Hautbois.

The G.O. is a little better, although the idea of a chamade reed on a small instrument which, whilst not original,* is probably unnecessary.

On the Positive Organ, there is a Tierce, but no Nazard. This is almost pointless. As another contributor has stated on a different thread, the Tierce was never used in French Classical music without the Nazard. It is of little use in any other repertoire without the companion Nazard - or at least a wide-scaled Quint. In addition, there is another 1ft. stop. One in such a small scheme is perhaps a luxury - two I consider to be wasteful, particularly since there is apparently no 2ft. stop on the Positif. Whilst the Quintadena will (or should) be voiced to accentuate the twelfth, this is not at all the same as a separate mutation rank at 2 2/3ft. pitch.

The Pedal Organ is simply too minimal, when the size of the other departments is taken into consideration, even with the dubious asset of the Récit Bombarde duplicated on this department.

Even if this scheme were carried-out with the services of a really good voicer, I do not think that it would either hang together convincingly, nor be particularly practical.


* There are innumberable Spanish organs of small size which contain (if that is the correct word) a loud chamade reed. Having played one or two examples in concert (usually after minimal rehearsal time), I remain entirely unconvinced of the perceived usefulness of such a rank.

To keep to a similar size, but spread over two claviers and pedals, I should prefer something along the following lines:

PEDAL ORGAN

Violone  (W) 16
Bourdon 16
Quint  (Std. W) 10 2/3
Violoncello (M) 8
Stopped Flute  (Ext.) 8
Bassoon  (W) 16
Great to Pedal
Swell to Pedal
Swell 4ft. to Pedal


GREAT ORGAN

Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Principal 4
Harmonic Flute 4
Fifteenth 2
Cornet  (12-15-17: G20/C25) III *
Tremulant
Swell 16ft. to Great
Swell to Great
Swell 4ft. to Great


* This stop can be electrically divided to stop either at G20 or C25, in order that, if desired, it can be accompanied on its own clavier.

SWELL ORGAN

Open Diapason 8
Flauto Traverso 8
Viola da Gamba 8
Voix Célestes  (AA) 8
Gemshorn  (Conical) 4
Mixture  (15-19-22) III
Hautboy 8
Trumpet 8
Tremulant
Sub Octave
Octave

Pedal to Great Pistons
Great to Pedal Pistons


Tuning: equal temperament.

NOTES

The Violone could be of metal, with the lowest notes Haskelled, if necessary.
The Quint should be voiced as 'dull' as possible, and is intended to be used in conjunction with the Violone.
The G.O. Cornet would be of wide scale, voiced with good blending qualities. In addtition to providing a useful solo voice (in combination, of course), it would also help to compensate for the lack of a chorus reed.


« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 01:50:27 AM by pcnd5584 »
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David Pinnegar

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2011, 01:38:35 AM »
To take the Récit first: there is a solitary Principal 4ft., but no 8ft. Diapason - or even an 8ft. Flute (it would be extremely unusual for the Cornet to sound below G20 at the lowest). The Bombarde is presumably of 16ft. pitch. This could be rather heavy in a small instrument. There is no quiet 8ft. reed, such as an Hautbois.

Hi!

Thanks so much for picking up on this thread - the issue is one worthy of deeper consideration.

You're very right about the 8ft here. At the time perhaps I was thinking of a bigger than usual Salicional nearer to being a Diapason and in fact (from memory) the Frobenius at Kingston Parish Church might have something of this nature.

Quote
The G.O. is a little better, although the idea of a chamade reed on a small instrument which, whilst not original,* is probably unnecessary.

:-) A little sparkle . . . ! Possibly depends on whether the acoustic of the building can make use of it.

Quote
On the Positive Organ, there is a Tierce, but no Nazard. This is almost pointless. As another contributor has stated on a different thread, the Tierce was never used in French Classical music without the Nazard.

This is a peculiarity which depends on the quality of the Quintadena as 8ft but providing a significant 12th and this suggestion arises from experiment by dint of necessity at Hammerwood where in the unequal temperament section of the organ, on the Positif a Jeu de Tierce is obtained by coupling down the Quintadena from the Solo and using a Bourdon and 4ft Flute with the Tierce. The result is reasonably successful.

Quote
In addition, there is another 1ft. stop. One in such a small scheme is perhaps a luxury - two I consider to be wasteful, particularly since there is apparently no 2ft. stop on the Positif.

Yes - agreed.

Quote
Whilst the Quintadena will (or should) be voiced to accentuate the twelfth, this is not at all the same as a separate mutation rank at 2 2/3ft. pitch.

Forgive my having been a little adventurous! I was trying to effect an economy, which might not be fully successful in practice . . .

Quote
To keep to a similar size, but spread over two claviers and pedals, I should prefer something along the following lines:

PEDAL ORGAN

Violone  (W) 16
Bourdon 16
Quint  (Std. W) 10 2/3
Violoncello (M) 8
Stopped Flute  (Ext.) 8
Bassoon  (W) 16
Great to Pedal
Swell to Pedal
Swell 4ft. to Pedal


GREAT ORGAN

Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Principal 4
Harmonic Flute 4
Fifteenth 2
Sesquialtera  (12-17) II
Tremulant
Swell 16ft. to Great
Swell to Great
Swell 4ft. to Great


SWELL ORGAN

Open Diapason 8
Flauto Traverso 8
Viola da Gamba 8
Voix Célestes  (AA) 8
Gemshorn  (Conical) 4
Mixture  (15-19-22) III
Hautboy 8
Trumpet 8
Tremulant
Sub Octave
Octave

Pedal to Great Pistons
Great to Pedal Pistons


Tuning: equal temperament.

NOTES

The Violone could be of metal, with the lowest notes Haskelled, if necessary.
The Quint should be voiced as 'dull' as possible, and is intended to be used in conjunction with the Violone.
The G.O. Sesquialtera would be of wide scale, voiced with good blending qualities. In addtition to providing a useful solo voice (in combination, of course), it would also help to compensate for the lack of a chorus reed.


[/font]

Um. Yes - very interesting - perhaps a lot of us might be salivating at such a scheme. Well worthy of further consideration. One might possibly be thinking of a teaching instrument or a subsidiary instrument for a school concert hall.

Subsequent to originating this discussion, I have experienced the surprisingly interesting genre of single manual French instruments, which one wonders if one could enlarge just slightly onto two manuals to be useful. Another instrument, near to Aix en Provence is at Bouc Bel Air by Jean Daldosso, having stops assignable to either manual at will, with a sideways action. http://www.orgueboucbelair.com/lorgue-jean-daldosso.html gives details but the recording that plays with the website hardly does justice to the instrument in real life.

As a larger instrument the Mander organ at Cranleigh http://www.mander-organs.com/portfolio/cranleigh-school.html is interesting in addition having a 3rd manual onto which the other two are permanently coupled. The choice of Kellner gives really nice thirds in B flat - F-C-G and should make the Tierce and mounted Cornet very beautiful in Couperin and the like.

Best wishes

David P
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 01:42:49 AM by David Pinnegar »
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

David Pinnegar

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2011, 10:05:52 AM »
Hi!

I really don't recommend going to bed thinking of an organ specification for if one does . . .

The origin of this thread started possibly with the recent excitement of experiencing St Maximin . . . which gave a particular slant to the concept.

I wondered about going back to basics, square 1 and something simpler . . . and recalled the image of the instrument destroyed by bulldozer which was the instigation of the events that led to the creation of this forum:


Swell:
Viole di Gamba 8
Voix Celestes 8
Rohr Flute 8
Gemshorn 4
Dulcet Mixture II
Oboe 8

Great:
Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Dulciana 8
Harmonic Flute 4
Principal 4
Piccolo 2

Choir:
Salicional 8
Lieblich Gedakt 8
Lieblich Flute 4
Clarinet 8

With the French Baroque the Dulicana with Stopped on the Great would serve as Montre, the Clarinet could be a fruitier Cromorne and with a 2ft on the Swell with what I assume might have been a Sesqualtra, one would have the Cornet, especially beefed up by the oboe which could veer towards trumpet. One might have a Trumpet on Great. . .

In the French Baroque, a characteristic is a chiffy 4ft flute with a smoother 8ft, the 4ft providing the greater definition.

The instrument was an interesting arrangement of just 17 stops on three manuals . . .

Could such an instrument be tweaked to do justice to a wide repertoire? Could one do with anything less? Could anything more add greatly?

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

pcnd5584

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2011, 10:28:31 PM »
I am assuming that we're talking here of an instrument designed for liturgical use, some impressive voluntaries and maybe some recitals. Shall we say 20 ranks? Here's my nearly-all-enclosed take:

Pedal
1 -   Acoustic Bass 32' (unison from Great Bass, quint from Dulciana)
2 -   Great Bass 16' (open wood pipes, large scale, high pressure)
3 -   Dulciana 16' (from GO)
4 -   Bourdon 16' (from Swell)
5 -   Octave 8' (ext. Great Bass)
6 -   Flute 8' (ext. Bourdon)
7 -   Flute 4' (ext. Bourdon)
8 -   Trombone 16' (ext. GO Posaune)
9 -   Baryton 16' (from Swell)
10 -   Posaune 8' (from GO)

Great
11 -   Dulciana 16' (unenclosed)
12 -   Open Diapason I 8' (leathered, high pressure)
13 -   Open Diapason II 8' (unenclosed)
14 -   Hohl Flute 8'
15 -   Principal 4' (unenclosed)
16 -   Octave Flute 4'
17 -   Fifteenth 2' (unenclosed)
18 -   Mixture IV (19.22.26.29) (unenclosed, to be installed when funds permit more ranks)
19 -   Posaune 8' (enclosed in own box)

Swell
20 -   Lieblich Bourdon 16'
21 -   Viole d'Orchestre 8'
22 -   Voix celeste 8'
23 -   Lieblich Gedact 8' (independent of L.Bourdon)
24 -   Lieblich Flute 4'
25 -   Flautina 2'
26 -   Baryton 16'
27 -   Cornopean 8'
28 -   Hautboy 8'
29 -   Vox Humana 8'
30 -   Clarinet 8'

Choir
31 -   Dulciana 16'
32 -   Viola 8'
33 -   Celeste 8'
34 -   Hohl Flute 8'
35 -   Lieblich Flute 8'
36 -   Unda Maris 8' (from 8ft flutes)
37 -   Octave Flute 4'
38 -   Lieblich Flute 4'
39 -   Flautina 2'
40 -   Baryton 16'
41 -   Vox Humana 8'
42 -   Hautboy 8'
43 -   Clarinet 8'
44 -   Posaune 8'
45 -   Cornopean 8'

Solo
46 -   Open Diapason 8' (from GO No1)
47 -   Viole d'Orchestre 8' (from Swell)
48 -   Hohl Flute 8' (from GO)
49 -   Octave Flute 4' (from GO)
50 -   Trombone 16' (from Pedal)
51 -   Cornopean 8' (from Swell)
52 -   Solo Posaune 8' (from Great Posaune)
53 -   Clarinet 8' (from Swell)

The Unda Maris (a flute celeste) might be a cheat, but it ought to work, the two ranks beating slightly against each other - an idea nicked from PCND5584's post on the Mander forum of Jan 2 2006... The unenclosed Great diapason chorus would be along Lewis/Walcker lines, the rest more Norman & Beardish... and if you think that won't work, go and hear the 1902 N&B in Colchester's Moot Hall! Lewis was working for N&B at the time and so it's a lot brighter than you'd expect. Also, if you wish to quibble with the widespread use of pedal ranks on the manuals, or the placing of the Vox Humana on a separate manual (as at Saint-Brieuc) go and complain to Monsieur Cavaillé-Coll!  ;) This one is admittedly borrowed from the Swell, but could be used thereby either as a solo stop or in alternatim with other Swell stops. The whole Choir is, actually, derived from other manuals, as per Mercklin practice, with the exception of the Clarinet (Belgian-style free-reed?). The Baryton stop is a sort of 16ft Vox Humana, used by Willis, C-C, Brindley & Foster and others - useful not only as a chorus reed but also for the full Wurlitzer effect!

So, a four-manual (sort of), 53-stop instrument, all from just twenty ranks, without any manual extension (except the Solo Trombone/Posaune)! I've modified the post several times and it's turned into a sort of Audsleyesque concept, albeit without a load of floating departments (though I suppose each manual department could be floating, so it could be assigned to any manual). I guess the next step would be to go down the Compton route and extend everything... or is that cheating?

I'm sure the high-pressure reeds and leathered diapasons will please PCND  ;)

Actually, I doubt that any of this would please me. Now, to dissect the scheme.

The PEDAL ORGAN - only one independent rank. This is inadvisable. Whilst Col. Dixon and later, Arthur Harrison,  recognised the usefulness of making certain 16ft. clavier stops also available on the Pedal Organ, they generally provided a little more in the way of independent 16ft. ranks. There is no chorus here to speak of. This would be quite unsatisfactory. This department needs more pipework of its own - and in a logical order.

The Acoustic Bass is unlikely to work. The quint needs to come from a fairly pure flute with, for want of a better term,  'neutral' harmonics. A Dulciana is no good at all - there will be too much edge to the tone, albeit quiet.

Extending the G.O. reed down an octave to provide a Pedal reed is acceptable.

The CHOIR ORGAN. whilst one could cheat and provide a flute céleste, by adding an extra drawstop to control both ranks simultaneously - why bother? It is just as easy to draw both stops at once. However, this is not the only problem. One of the ranks, either the Hohl Flute or the Lieblich Flute (this should be called Lieblich Gedeckt, or Gedackt, at 8ft, pitch) will have to be tuned sharp (preferably not flat) to beat with the other unison rank; this will inevitably preclude its use as a solo stop, or in combination with the other ranks on this department.

With regard to the reeds, it appears that they are simply borrowed from the Swell Organ. Again - why bother? I can see little value in so many stops being made to draw on multiple divisions. It may perhaps be useful to have a solo reed * (or perhaps the G.O. reeds) available as a separate drawstop on another department - but not whole swathes of stops. The Swell Organ has one or two quieter ranks (on paper), which would be suitable to provide an accompaniment to the Clarinet, for example. The Hautboy should be on the Swell Organ only.

The GREAT ORGAN. So here, where there is the only real attempt on paper to design a diapason chorus, the only compound stop is apparently prepared-for. Again, this is highly unsatisfactory. There is a large, leathered Open Diapason - quite simply: why? It has been proven that excellent results can be obtained without recourse to this little trick. Then we have another Hohl Flute and Octave Flute - or perhaps they are also borrowed from the Choir Organ. If not, why duplicate the tonality?

In addition, it would be preferable to have the G.O. reed on an open soundboard. Otherwise, virtually the entire instrument will sound as if it is situated in the next town.

The SWELL ORGAN. This is sheer nonsense. No Diapason chorus - in fact, no Diapason at all. No mixture. Just another collection of flutes. The reeds are available on two other departments. In addition, the Viole d'Orchestre and companion undulant would need skilful voicing in order to blend with the family of Lieblich Flutes. Such keen strings generally mix better with more orchestral type flutes (Claribels, Flauti Traversi, Hohl Flutes, Flûtes Harmoniques, etc). The Lieblich type pipes blend better with Salicionals and Vox Angelicas - as FHW well knew.

The SOLO ORGAN - a mere collection of stops from the other divisions, available on yet another clavier - forget it!

It is difficult to discern what use such a scheme is likely to be. What were the thoughts behind this design? As it stands at present, on paper it is capable of little more than some pretty sounds and a seamless crescendo up to a somewhat thick and dull-sounding full organ. I can think of no voluntaries, impressive or otherwise, which I should wish to play on such an instrument.

You cite Lewis and HN&B in defence of your scheme, but the tonal ideals (and their subsequent realisation) are worlds away from the above. You apparently give no credence to the fact that that the Colchester Moot Hall Pedal Organ (of four stops) actually has more independent pipework than your own scheme, there is a secondary Diapason chorus (including a total of eight ranks of mixture-work §), there is also considerably less borrowing - or duplication. In fact, this type of late-Romantic voicing only works because of two factors. Firstly, at that time, HN&B employed good voicers (or in some cases, contracted-out to people such as William Cyples Jones). Secondly, despite a close association with the style of stop-list and voicing favoured by Robert Hope-Jones, HN&B never lost sight entirely of the chorus structures of William Hill.

Give me time to get some food, and I shall try to produce a re-working of your scheme.

I am going to need a really big skip, though....


* This arrangement currently obtains on the H&H instrument in Wells Cathedral, for example.

§ True, these probably both contained tierce ranks, and one may even have included the anti-social flat twenty-first.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:47:56 PM by pcnd5584 »
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

pcnd5584

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2011, 11:01:20 PM »
To keep the same number of stops for each division (but also dispensing with the borrowed Solo Organ), I suggest the following:

PEDAL ORGAN

Contra Bass  (W+M) 16
Bourdon 16
Quintatön  (G.O.)  16
Quint  (Std. W) 10 2/3
Octave  (M) 8
Stopped Flute  (Ext.) 8
Fifteenth 4
Grand Bombarde  (W) 16
Bass Trumpet  (Swell) 16
Trumpet  (W+M; ext.) 8
Choir to Pedal
Choir Octave to Pedal
Great to Pedal
Swell to Pedal

Pedal to Great Pistons
Great to Pedal Pistons


CHOIR ORGAN
(Enclosed)

Lieblich Bourdon 16
Open Diapason 8
Flûte Harmonique 8
Violoncello 8
Violoncello Céleste  (CC) 8
Lieblich Gedeckt 8
Gemshorn  (Conical) 4
Suabe Flöte 4
Flageolet 2
Mixture  (15-19-22)
Cor Anglais  (73 pipes) 16
Corno di Bassetto 8
Tremulant
Sub Octave
Unison Off
Octave
Swell to Choir


GREAT ORGAN

Quintatön 16
Open Diapason I 8
Open Diapason II 8
Rohr Flöte 8
Octave 4
Wald Flöte 4
Super Octave 2
Mixture  (19-22-26-29) IV
Posaune 8
Reed on Choir
Choir to Great
Swell to Great


SWELL ORGAN

Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Salicional 8
Vox Angelica  (AA) 8
Geigen Principal 4
Fifteenth 2
Sharp Mixture  (22-26-29) III
Hautboy 8
Tremulant
Double Trumpet 16
Cornopean 8
Clarion 4
Sub Octave
Unison Off
Octave


NOTES

The Great Organ is entirely unenclosed.
I have reduced the Choir Organ in size, rationalising and re-apportioning the reed stops.
All stops are of complete compass, unless otherwise stated. No ranks are prepared-for.




« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:49:45 PM by pcnd5584 »
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

David Pinnegar

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2011, 11:40:55 PM »
Dear VC and PCND

This thread is a very interesting exercise - we might have to split it into two however for a good comprehensive instrument and a small instrument :) but these specifications are nonetheless most instructive.

As a comment in passing rather than in any way considering the schemes comprehensively off the cuff, I'm not quite sure of the value of a 16 Quintaton as the main 16ft base for the manuals as the 5th close to the 8ft is out of the 8ft harmonic series and will muddy it up. It all depends on how subtle it is, I suppose. . . but presumably it will provide a richesse. However, I use one successfully on pedals with a Grand Tierce in absense of the Grand Nasard.

Reverting to an earlier discussion about the use of a high quint content 8ft within the Jeu de Tierce rather than a Nasard here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C16HE2uw3_U Apologies for playing - I was exploring the rhythmic emphasis of Mary Pratt Molinier at Albi* compared with the Temp Inegal. It's a heresy but one which could save a rank in a small instrument. However, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1YcEjz8Xro will have been registered with the appropriate 12th.
Best wishes

David P

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5GIPTPyGzI
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:47:01 PM by David Pinnegar »
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

pcnd5584

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2011, 11:53:59 PM »


... As a comment in passing rather than in any way considering the schemes comprehensively off the cuff, I'm not quite sure of the value of a 16 Quintaton as the main 16ft base for the manuals as the 5th close to the 8ft is out of the 8ft harmonic series and will muddy it up. It all depends on how subtle it is, I suppose. . . but presumably it will provide a richesse. ...
Best wishes

David P

The JW Walker insrument at Wimborne Minster has such a stop as the only G.O. sub-unison flue. It is, quite simply, superb; and I would not exchange it for a second. It is something of a chameleon, being able to provide a suitable foundation for the full G.O., yet also blending well with the flutes. It is a most versatile stop - even effective played an octave higher as a solo.
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

Brian Daniels

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2011, 12:34:30 AM »
The Quintaten is very useful inter alia for the LH acct. in CPs when the CF is in the pedal at 4ft pitch as in
JSB's Wol soll ich fliehen hin BWV646. Properly voiced it can resemble a contrabass deftly played!

Brian Daniels

David Pinnegar

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2011, 08:36:16 AM »
The JW Walker insrument at Wimborne Minster has such a stop as the only G.O. sub-unison flue. It is, quite simply, superb; and I would not exchange it for a second. It is something of a chameleon, being able to provide a suitable foundation for the full G.O., yet also blending well with the flutes. It is a most versatile stop - even effective played an octave higher as a solo.

Hi!

Interesting. One of Colin Pykett's researches to which some of my posts yesterday pointed looks at the way in which some stops fit harmonics into others. An example of this that he talks about is the way in which a 4ft Principal fits its harmonics into the gaps of the harmonics of the 8ft Stopped Diapason. It's for this reason that on small instruments one does not need two Open Diapasons. One supposes that the Quintadena does this sort of thing in a particularly coloured way setting up the chorus at 16ft pitch giving the instrument the gravitas of a much larger Seize Pieds instrument.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

pcnd5584

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2011, 10:54:08 PM »
The JW Walker insrument at Wimborne Minster has such a stop as the only G.O. sub-unison flue. It is, quite simply, superb; and I would not exchange it for a second. It is something of a chameleon, being able to provide a suitable foundation for the full G.O., yet also blending well with the flutes. It is a most versatile stop - even effective played an octave higher as a solo.

Hi!

Interesting. One of Colin Pykett's researches to which some of my posts yesterday pointed looks at the way in which some stops fit harmonics into others. An example of this that he talks about is the way in which a 4ft Principal fits its harmonics into the gaps of the harmonics of the 8ft Stopped Diapason. It's for this reason that on small instruments one does not need two Open Diapasons. One supposes that the Quintadena does this sort of thing in a particularly coloured way setting up the chorus at 16ft pitch giving the instrument the gravitas of a much larger Seize Pieds instrument.

Best wishes

David P

Indeed. In some ways, such a rank is preferable to a Double Open Diapason, which can be somewhat heavy and consequently, of limited use.
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

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Re: Minimum specification of small organ
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2011, 06:21:37 PM »
Moderators have expressed concern at the long post above but I have approved it as discussion of the foundations of organ design is so educational particularly to the upcoming generation and, hopefully, leading to exploration and enthusiasm for such.


The thread has strayed from a minimum or a small organ specification but these posts can always be split out onto a new topic in due course and PCND might contemplate this at the appropriate time . . .


In relation to pedal stops, experience at St Maximin is interesting as between the Great and the Recit manuals, there's the Resonnance (amnesia on spelling - please excuse or someone correct for me if necessary) to which pedal is permanently coupled and which can be shared with the Great. Pedal has no dedicated stops. Clever concept which could be more widely employed. I'd love to experience the Dom Bedos instrument at Rieti.


Best wishes


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