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Minimum specification of small organ

Started by organforumadmin, April 17, 2010, 01:13:46 PM

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MusingMuso

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 30, 2012, 03:09:42 PM
I hope you don't mind but I've expanded my quote of your words to make it a little clearer to what I refer (though it seems you understood anyway!).

==================


Now you've got me all confused!

My last reply was written on the basis that we were referring only to Arthur Harrison instruments, but actually, the original quote from my previous post referred to Schulze, with just a brief reference to Arthur Harrison.

I shall have to re-read everything and correct any misunderstanding.

Best

MM

AnOrganCornucopia

Quote from: pcnd5584 on April 30, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 28, 2012, 01:57:42 AM
Quote from: MusingMuso on March 13, 2012, 07:28:46 PMBasically, the Great Organ is totally dominant and usually very loud (this is a feature of Arthur Harrison organs). The Swell organ is next in loudness, but quite underpowered as compared with a Fr.Willis organ.

Erm, that certainly wasn't the case at Worcester, nor is it at St Mary Redcliffe - nor, in fact, with any Arthur Harrison organ I've ever encountered.

Actually I would have said that the obvious meaning of MM's quote is a true and accurate picture.

You are certainly incorrect regarding Worcester. I played the old organ for a number of services and I can assure you that the G.O. was indeed very loud - with the Swell and Choir very much secondary divisions. And this has been my experience with the other H&H instruments which I have played - although I cannot speak for Redcliffe, since this is one which I have not played.

This is why, in some ways, an instrument by FHW is better for playing Bach, since there is a better chance of finding a reasonably strong secondary chorus - albeit with tierce mixtures.


I think what I was saying was not that the Great WASN'T very loud, but that the Swell WAS. Certainly, that at Redcliffe is, according to all who have told me about it (I HOPE to hear it later this year), staggeringly loud (with the Pedal 32' and 16' Ophicleides also in the box). At Worcester, wasn't there a reasonable chorus on the Solo manual (effectively a sort of Bombarde division)? NPOR shows six stops - 8.4.2.III (22.26.29).16.8. - and I seem to recall this being rather loud (though my memories are those of a very small boy).

pcnd5584

#82
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 30, 2012, 11:19:08 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on April 30, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 28, 2012, 01:57:42 AM
Quote from: MusingMuso on March 13, 2012, 07:28:46 PMBasically, the Great Organ is totally dominant and usually very loud (this is a feature of Arthur Harrison organs). The Swell organ is next in loudness, but quite underpowered as compared with a Fr.Willis organ.

You are certainly incorrect regarding Worcester, nor is it at St Mary Redcliffe - nor, in fact, with any Arthur Harrison organ I've ever encountered.

Actually I would have said that the obvious meaning of MM's quote is a true and accurate picture.

You are certainly incorrect regarding Worcester. I played the old organ for a number of services and I can assure you that the G.O. was indeed very loud - with the Swell and Choir very much secondary divisions. And this has been my experience with the other H&H instruments which I have played - although I cannot speak for Redcliffe, since this is one which I have not played.

This is why, in some ways, an instrument by FHW is better for playing Bach, since there is a better chance of finding a reasonably strong secondary chorus - albeit with tierce mixtures.


I think what I was saying was not that the Great WASN'T very loud, but that the Swell WAS. Certainly, that at Redcliffe is, according to all who have told me about it (I HOPE to hear it later this year), staggeringly loud (with the Pedal 32' and 16' Ophicleides also in the box). At Worcester, wasn't there a reasonable chorus on the Solo manual (effectively a sort of Bombarde division)? NPOR shows six stops - 8.4.2.III (22.26.29).16.8. - and I seem to recall this being rather loud (though my memories are those of a very small boy).

This may be so. However, the Swell Organ at Redcliffe, with twenty-one ranks, is far from being a typical vintage Harrison design - in every aspect. For one thing, it is situated in a (comparatively reverberant) purpose-built stone chamber, formed from the north-east angle of the North Transept. This chamber actually forms the expression box. The shutters are mounted behind the open tracery of the 'windows'. Secondly, due to its positioning, it mixes Solo stops (orchestral strings, flutes and reeds) with a Diapason chorus. Partly due to its position in the church (and the distance from the rest of the instrument), I suspect that the chorus is voiced more powerfully than was usual H&H practice at the time. However, I would have to look back through my copies of The Organ, in order to verify the wind pressures used.

Worcester - this is indeed correct. The entire Solo Organ (a Bombarde in all but name) spoke on a pressure of 250mm - around 75 - 80mm higher than FHW's normal pressure for his G.O. chorus reeds.

I know that there is now little point in bemoaning what cannot now be - but I do wish that this instrument had not been unceremoniously discarded, but rather restored. When I played it, I found it to be a truly heroic instrument, with a wealth of softer tone-colours, good (if quite big) diapason choruses, colourful (and musical) reeds - and a tutti which was both awesome and which suited the 'feel' of the building like a glove.

In addition, apart from the Swell Gedeckt 8ft., everything worked perfectly, the instrument was well in tune - and I was unable to detect any wind leaks or other serious problems anywhere.

Funny that - particularly since it was de-commissioned shortly after this....
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

flared_ophicleide

#83
My trip to the UK next yr includes a visit to Worcester Cath.  I know little about the organ installed in '08, but I'd like to look at the Handel organ and, from what I gather, it still exists, the Scott case in the transept.

One small organ got my att'n the other day, as I was online. The Compton in Borough Welsh Chapel in Southwark, Surrey.  I almost didn't bother sharing about it, since I wasn't sure if the stoplist would interest anybody, but Compton was a genius in the way he voiced and in physical placement of ranks in relation to others.  M. Dupre once remarked that, after hearing the Downside Abbey organ, he wouldn't have known that it was unified unless smb told him.  From what I'm told, on a Compton, you don't have a problem, audibly, with dropped notes in big chords.

Ok, here's the list:

Great

16'    Bourdon
  8'    Open Diapason
  8'    Hohl Flute
  8'    Salicional
  4'    Octave
  4'    Open Flute
  4'    Salicet
         12th
         15th

Swell

16'     Contra Salicional  tc
  8'     Hohl Flute
  8'     Salicional
  4'     Open Flute
  4'     Salicet
  2'     Piccolo
          Cymbale 15.19.22
16'     Trombone  tc
  8'     Trumpet
  4'     Clarion

Pedal

16'      Bourdon
  8'      Flute
16'      Trombone  tc
  8'      Trumpet

I thought this 4-rk organ sounded pleasing and it seems very adequate for this church.  The problem I have is the fact that the 16' Trombone is tc on the Pedal.  That doesn't make sense, since out of 2 1/2 octaves on the pedal, a whole octave is silent with this stop on. 

For absolute minimal requirements, having a manual 16' stop as tc is ok, since most of the activity takes place within the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th octaves. 

There's an Austin in Chicago which has a 32' Bombarde without the bottom octave.  Somehow, it seems that that's just for show.  One of those "looks GREAT on paper, but....  " things.

pcnd5584

#84
Quote from: flared_ophicleide on May 03, 2012, 01:51:16 AM
My trip to the UK next yr includes a visit to Worcester Cath.  I know little about the organ installed in '08, but I'd like to look at the Handel organ and, from what I gather, it still exists, the Scott case in the transept. ...

When you do get to Worcester, perhaps you could ask them when they intend to build the Transept/Nave Organ - it seems to have gone very quiet on this subject since the inauguration of the new Quire Organ.

Unfortunately, until this second instrument is built - along with the removal of Scott's huge case from the South to the North Transept, the Quire Organ is without its 32ft. flues - which is a great pity. The two full-length stops, Double Open Wood and Contra Violone* (Metal), are excellent examples. There is, in addition a 'second' 32ft. reed, simply called 'Trumpet', which was added by H&H in 1972, as a three-stop unit - all (slightly oddly) labelled 'Trumpet', with only the pitch length to distinguish each stop. As far as I know, this rank is still in place. For that matter, I think that the lowest octave of the Hope-Jones Diaphone 32ft. is still in situ in the Transept case. The pipes were too big to remove without dismantling most of the case.



* There is, of course, also a silent upwards extension of this rank, at 16ft. and 8ft. pitches - which was inexplicably disconnected from the former Quire organ at the time of the partial rebuild by Wood, Wordsworth & Co., in 1978.

I hope that these stops (with the possible exception of the Diaphones)  will also be made available on the Quire Organ, once the scheme is completed. The photographs I have seen of the new Quire console are not quite large or clear enough to enable every stop-head to be read, so I am not sure whether or not it is intended to re-instate these stops.

Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

Gwas_Bach

An interesting article by Norman Cocker on some of his ideas for small church organs. I wouldn't mind playing some of these!

http://cdmnet.org/Julian/schemes/cocker2.htm

pcnd5584

Quote from: Gwas_Bach on May 05, 2012, 06:00:50 PM
An interesting article by Norman Cocker on some of his ideas for small church organs. I wouldn't mind playing some of these!

http://cdmnet.org/Julian/schemes/cocker2.htm

Interesting in a way. But I should much rather have played the instrument over which he presided at Manchester Cathedral - that is, in its incarnation immediately prior to its rebuilding by the German firm of Luftwaffe....

On paper it made far more sense that the slightly weird instrument which currently inhabits the choir aisles of this cathedral. On his appointment (occasioned by the sudden death of Norman Cocker), Allan Wicks was able to secure a few modifications to the original scheme; however, there was still much that was unconventional.
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

Gwas_Bach

#87
I've recently remembered about a hypothetical scheme that Stephen Bicknell had designed for the Willis company. He designed a scheme where most of the stops were available on two manuals. This seems to me to be an excellent way of getting the maximum versatility from a small number of stops. This is the scheme that David Wyld sent to me a while back.

Manual I                       
Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedact 8
Salicional 8
Principal   (or Gemshorn) 4
Flûte Harmonique   4
Fifteenth (or Flageolet) 2
Mixture 12.17
Cornopean (or Trumpet) 8

Manual II
Open Diapason 8
Lieblich Gedact 8

Salicional 8
Principal (or Gemshorn) 4
Flûte Harmonique 4
Fifteenth (or Flageolet) 2
Twelfth 2 2/3
Cornopean (or Trumpet) 8

Pedal:-
Bourdon   16

Couplers:-
Man II to Man I
Man I to Pedal
Man II to Pedal

"The only 'stop' which isn't the same on both manuals being the 2-rank Mixture, which draws on the Swell as a Twelfth."

"This specification could then have other things added to it, for example a Pedal Principal at 8ft and a 16ft Reed or some items deleted, if a smaller instrument were to be required."


I would love to see this happen somewhere. If I had the money, I would buy one for my local church... Alas, that is a wild fantasy. :(

flared_ophicleide

#88
Quote from: pcnd5584 on May 03, 2012, 11:34:56 PM
Quote from: flared_ophicleide on May 03, 2012, 01:51:16 AM
My trip to the UK next yr includes a visit to Worcester Cath.  I know little about the organ installed in '08, but I'd like to look at the Handel organ and, from what I gather, it still exists, the Scott case in the transept. ...

When you do get to Worcester, perhaps you could ask them when they intend to build the Transept/Nave Organ - it seems to have gone very quiet on this subject since the inauguration of the new Quire Organ.


'ello pcnd.  Been a little over 5 months since getting back from England, and been over a year since visiting this thread.

Forgot about your suggestion above, which I probably otherwise would've remembered if I hadn't been so poorly when in Worcester. The cold was so bad I was basically walking round the Cathedral like a bloody zombie and was so swimmy-headed that even a few intelligent questions were beyond my ability.  I did briefly meet one of the organ techs, under Mr. Tickell, who was making some minor adjustments though.

At least loads of snaps were taken, including of what I could inside the big Scott case.  It is confirmed that they want to move it to the North Transept to allow sunlight through the South.  (southern exposure, don'tcha know)

uh-oh, just realised I went off-topic...

David Drinkell

Quote from: Gwas_Bach on August 11, 2013, 04:34:47 PM
I've recently remembered about a hypothetical scheme that Stephen Bicknell had designed for the Willis company. He designed a scheme where most of the stops were available on two manuals. This seems to me to be an excellent way of getting the maximum versatility from a small number of stops. This is the scheme that David Wyld sent to me a while back.

Manual I                       
Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedact 8
Salicional 8
Principal   (or Gemshorn) 4
Flûte Harmonique   4
Fifteenth (or Flageolet) 2
Mixture 12.17
Cornopean (or Trumpet) 8

Manual II
Open Diapason 8
Lieblich Gedact 8

Salicional 8
Principal (or Gemshorn) 4
Flûte Harmonique 4
Fifteenth (or Flageolet) 2
Twelfth 2 2/3
Cornopean (or Trumpet) 8

Pedal:-
Bourdon   16

Couplers:-
Man II to Man I
Man I to Pedal
Man II to Pedal

"The only 'stop' which isn't the same on both manuals being the 2-rank Mixture, which draws on the Swell as a Twelfth."

"This specification could then have other things added to it, for example a Pedal Principal at 8ft and a 16ft Reed or some items deleted, if a smaller instrument were to be required."


I would love to see this happen somewhere. If I had the money, I would buy one for my local church... Alas, that is a wild fantasy. :(

Davies of Northampton used to do this sort of thing quite often (e.g. http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N02579), partly because the firm was the successor to the Aeolian Company, who specialised in residence organs.  I have an idea that the original Davies might have been ex-Willis, too.

Roger Yates' little job at Bozeat (http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N03464), if I haven't mentioned it before, is a charming example of versatility through duplication, and quite amazing for its date.  It even has a nice case.

Lewisfreak

I believe the late Cecil Clutton was an enthusiastic contributor to this topic and published a few articles about it. He seemed to think having 3 manuals was worth it even if each division only had a couple of stops.

Gwas_Bach


JSSOrganist

I'm coming on this thread very late. But here is an idea I like very much for a small two manual. It is a duplexed organ with all stops available on tow manuals. It can be done with mechanical action and flip-flop valves. There is a similar instrument in the chapel at Clarmont United Church of Christ built by Glatter-Gotz/Rosales. It has a treble only en-chamade for Wedding Processionals. With atleast two stops at 8, 4, and 2 independent  little choruses can be had on each manual.
Some might like different reeds or different specific flutes, but this gives the basic idea. Basically 16 stops with a couple of extensions for the Pedal.
   8   Principal
   8   Chimney Flute   
   8   Salicional
   8   Celeste
   4   Octave
   4   Tapered Flute
   2-2/3   Nasard
   2   Octave
   2   Recorder
   1-3/5   Tierce
   1-1/3   Quint
   III   Mixture
   8   Trumpet
   8   Cromorne


   16   Subbass    8  Gedackt (ext.)
   4   Chorale
   16   Trombone (Ext of Gt. Trumpet)
John

londonorganist

#93
In my humble opinion, the most important thing in any instrument is a good foundation and good integrity
If I had to use, say 15 stops, I would recommend something like this:

Pedal
16' Bourdon (voiced to support the whole organ while not being to dominating)
8'   Principal
8'   Flute
G/P
S/P
SO/P

Great
8'   Open Diapason
8'   Stopped Diapason
4'   Principal
2'   Fifteenth
II   Mixture (19.22)
S/G
SO/G

Swell
8'       Chimney Flute
8'       Salicional (tuned just sharp enough to beat with the flute, but not too sharp that it can't be used alone for ppp effect)
4'       Principal
2'       Super Octave
1 1/3  Quint
16'     Contra Oboe
8'       Trumpet

Swell Octave
Swell Unison Off

Thoughts?



pcnd5584

#94
Quote from: londonorganist on February 01, 2015, 01:03:34 PM
In my humble opinion, the most important thing in any instrument is a good foundation and good integrity
If I had to use, say 15 stops, I would recommend something like this:

Pedal
16' Bourdon (voiced to support the whole organ while not being to dominating)
8'   Principal
8'   Flute
G/P
S/P
SO/P

Great
8'   Open Diapason
8'   Stopped Diapason
4'   Principal
2'   Fifteenth
II   Mixture (19.22)
S/G
SO/G

Swell
8'       Chimney Flute
8'       Salicional (tuned just sharp enough to beat with the flute, but not too sharp that it can't be used alone for ppp effect)
4'       Principal
2'       Super Octave
1 1/3  Quint
16'     Contra Oboe
8'       Trumpet

Swell Octave
Swell Unison Off

Thoughts?

One or two: my preference (for tone colour) would be to ditch the 1 1/3ft. stop on the Swell Organ and substitute a mild string undulant of some kind (though not too keen); then the Salicional can be re-tuned 'dead'. This is likely to be more satisfactory. A string (even a mild type) would probably not to beat convincingly with a Chimney Flute; I have seen one or two examples where this expedient has been attempted, but did not feel that it worked in practice. Secondly, I should gladly forgo the Contra Oboe and have the stop at unison pitch. This stop is such a useful colourant that its limitation at sub-unison pitch actually makes it less flexible. At the lease, it should be extended to 8ft. pitch - and with a separate stop to control it. (Octave and Unison Off couplers only are no good; as such, the Oboe could then only be used as a solo stop at unison pitch, unless one wished for the whole Swell Organ to be an octave higher.)

Otherwise the scheme looks to be okay. (Although I might prefer a separate stopped Quint 10 2/3ft., to the Pedal Principal.)
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

londonorganist

Quote from: pcnd5584 on February 01, 2015, 10:38:28 PM
Quote from: londonorganist on February 01, 2015, 01:03:34 PM
In my humble opinion, the most important thing in any instrument is a good foundation and good integrity
If I had to use, say 15 stops, I would recommend something like this:

Pedal
16' Bourdon (voiced to support the whole organ while not being to dominating)
8'   Principal
8'   Flute
G/P
S/P
SO/P

Great
8'   Open Diapason
8'   Stopped Diapason
4'   Principal
2'   Fifteenth
II   Mixture (19.22)
S/G
SO/G

Swell
8'       Chimney Flute
8'       Salicional (tuned just sharp enough to beat with the flute, but not too sharp that it can't be used alone for ppp effect)
4'       Principal
2'       Super Octave
1 1/3  Quint
16'     Contra Oboe
8'       Trumpet

Swell Octave
Swell Unison Off

Thoughts?

One or two: my preference (for tone colour) would be to ditch the 1 1/3ft. stop on the Swell Organ and substitute a mild string undulant of some kind (though not too keen); then the Salicional can be re-tuned 'dead'. This is likely to be more satisfactory. A string (even a mild type) would probably not to beat convincingly with a Chimney Flute; I have seen one or two examples where this expedient has been attempted, but did not feel that it worked in practice. Secondly, I should gladly forgo the Contra Oboe and have the stop at unison pitch. This stop is such a useful colourant that its limitation at sub-unison pitch actually makes it less flexible. At the lease, it should be extended to 8ft. pitch - and with a separate stop to control it. (Octave and Unison Off couplers only are no good; as such, the Oboe could then only be used as a solo stop at unison pitch, unless one wished for the whole Swell Organ to be an octave higher.)

Otherwise the scheme looks to be okay. (Although I might prefer a separate stopped Quint 10 2/3ft., to the Pedal Principal.)


On second thoughts I would agree there, a standard "dead" string would be better.
However I wouldn't replace the principal with a Quint. While my new instrument has an independent quint which has tremendous effect, the Principal allows three independent lines for trio playing.

pcnd5584

Quote from: londonorganist on February 01, 2015, 11:26:55 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on February 01, 2015, 10:38:28 PM
Quote from: londonorganist on February 01, 2015, 01:03:34 PM
In my humble opinion, the most important thing in any instrument is a good foundation and good integrity
If I had to use, say 15 stops, I would recommend something like this:

Pedal
16' Bourdon (voiced to support the whole organ while not being to dominating)
8'   Principal
8'   Flute
G/P
S/P
SO/P

Great
8'   Open Diapason
8'   Stopped Diapason
4'   Principal
2'   Fifteenth
II   Mixture (19.22)
S/G
SO/G

Swell
8'       Chimney Flute
8'       Salicional (tuned just sharp enough to beat with the flute, but not too sharp that it can't be used alone for ppp effect)
4'       Principal
2'       Super Octave
1 1/3  Quint
16'     Contra Oboe
8'       Trumpet

Swell Octave
Swell Unison Off

Thoughts?

One or two: my preference (for tone colour) would be to ditch the 1 1/3ft. stop on the Swell Organ and substitute a mild string undulant of some kind (though not too keen); then the Salicional can be re-tuned 'dead'. This is likely to be more satisfactory. A string (even a mild type) would probably not to beat convincingly with a Chimney Flute; I have seen one or two examples where this expedient has been attempted, but did not feel that it worked in practice. Secondly, I should gladly forgo the Contra Oboe and have the stop at unison pitch. This stop is such a useful colourant that its limitation at sub-unison pitch actually makes it less flexible. At the lease, it should be extended to 8ft. pitch - and with a separate stop to control it. (Octave and Unison Off couplers only are no good; as such, the Oboe could then only be used as a solo stop at unison pitch, unless one wished for the whole Swell Organ to be an octave higher.)

Otherwise the scheme looks to be okay. (Although I might prefer a separate stopped Quint 10 2/3ft., to the Pedal Principal.)


On second thoughts I would agree there, a standard "dead" string would be better.
However I wouldn't replace the principal with a Quint. While my new instrument has an independent quint which has tremendous effect, the Principal allows three independent lines for trio playing.

The Principal - this is a valid point. In which case, perhaps you could allow yourself one stop over the limit, and derive a Quint from the Bourdon.
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

londonorganist

Quote from: pcnd5584 on February 02, 2015, 09:40:18 PM
The Principal - this is a valid point. In which case, perhaps you could allow yourself one stop over the limit, and derive a Quint from the Bourdon.

Derived quints never really work well. I play a 40 stop walker with an independent quint, meaning it can be tuned pure, and the result is fantastic under full swell closed!

pcnd5584

Quote from: londonorganist on February 02, 2015, 11:38:39 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on February 02, 2015, 09:40:18 PM
The Principal - this is a valid point. In which case, perhaps you could allow yourself one stop over the limit, and derive a Quint from the Bourdon.

Derived quints never really work well. I play a 40 stop walker with an independent quint, meaning it can be tuned pure, and the result is fantastic under full swell closed!

No - agreed, but it is sometimes better than nothing. At least it is better than the usual Acoustic Bass, which often derives both the fundamental and the quint from the same large open wood pipes.

I deally, the Bourdon wired at 32ft. pitch for the top eighteen notes of the pedal-board, with an independent quint for the lowest twelve notesw can work well.
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

David Drinkell

The real killer seems to be if the rank supplying the quint is too loud, although other considerations have to be made, such as placement and acoustic.  Although by the laws of physics it's wrong, a better effect can sometimes be had by wiring the fourth below (i.e. 21 1/3) for the top seven notes of the bottom octave and the fifth above for the remaining five.  I see no point, in nearly all cases, in providing a 10 2/3 quint all the way up the board.