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Organists who think they are atheists

Started by David Pinnegar, July 04, 2010, 12:03:04 PM

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David Pinnegar

Hi!

I'm coming to find a lot of organists who proclaim themselves atheists. But the funny thing is that a good paid up member of the atheist party is often as good a member of any church as any who proclaim belief in God, in just the same way that Marxism and Nazism meet. Of course this is not comparing beleif in God or anti-belief to either of those man-made systems . . .

But the point is that atheists believing in the uniqueness of the wonder of evolution which has produced us often feel bound by a moral code representing respect for that uniqueness of chance which has resulted in us. Whether created by evolution from nature, or from God, the result is the same. Is God Nature?

Best wishes

David P

revtonynewnham

Hi

God is not nature - the natural world is part of His creation - but creation can and does reveal God to those who have eyes to see.

As to atheist organists, why on earth are they playing in church in the first place?  Apart from the fact that to claim to be an atheist is, in effect, to claim that you know everything - -because that's the only way that anyone can say definitively that there is no God - it's raises moral questions to support a religious system that you claim to be a lie.  That just doesn't make sense.

Also, how can an atheist fully understand and communicate the Christian message through music if they regard it as nonsense, or at best a moral code?  Leading worship is an important ministry - not one to be delegated to someone with no belief in what they're doing.

Every Blessing

Tony

David Pinnegar

Dear Tony

I quite agree with you! Of course God is more than "nature" in the limited sense of the natural world that we see around us. I was significantly flamed and accused of "ranting" when elsewhere I commented on the way in which one has to understand a composer in order to understand a composition and that therefore a particularly high profile performer well known for being "God-free" was unlikely to be the best interpreter of sacred music. But there is a difference between being godless and Atheist as the godless acknowledge nothing but self-supremacy, whilst many of the Atheist take upon themselves the responsibility which understanding of an evolution into us, through an absolutely unique set of circumstances and chances, brings.

The extent to which one draws a line between an evolution arising out of such unique circumstances and a creation is so very thin that I wonder if people really see how futile it might be to draw the distinction, as perhaps there is none. It therefore becomes unnecessary to rail against God.

I have written elsewhere about God being hidden in the dimensions which we know exist but cannot be seen, perhaps being our descriptions of those dimensions, which we know from the fact of modern mathematics and physics to exist, being our actual description of God. We might call the hidden, unseen and all powerful influences of those dimensions upon our space as the effects of the "Holy Spirit", the "Father" being those forces and laws of which all matter and energy must obey, and the "Son" being the personification of the Father's actions and teaching within the human realm.

I was led into this thread by users of Hauptwerk and a visitor to the EOCS meeting here the other day - it's very clear that atheist organists are a part of the operation of the church. What is interesting is that the organ has clearly got atheists into church! Perhaps they simply don't want to acknowledge the role that God plays in their lives.

Best wishes

David P

revtonynewnham

Quote from: David Pinnegar on July 05, 2010, 12:45:13 PM
Dear Tony

What is interesting is that the organ has clearly got atheists into church! Perhaps they simply don't want to acknowledge the role that God plays in their lives.

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

I've no problem with atheists being in church - and I'm convinced that God works in many more ways than we can imagine.  There's even one account of a preacher coming to real faith in one of his own sermons!  However, I still have reservations about non-believers taking positions of leadership/ministry in church.

Look forward to hearing about the EOCS meeting on Saturday.

See you next week.

every Blessing

Tony

Crosivda101

I personally believe you take what you get. You don't need to be a believer to be a good musician at the heart. Anyone who opposes secular musicians are blinded by prejudice and arrogance on every level.

NonPlayingAnorak

At the same time, Crosdiva, I believe that there is some music (Messiaen's, for instance) which you cannot really get to the heart of without some Christian spirituality...

revtonynewnham

Hi

Whilst Crosivda is right - being a good musician doesn't necessarily mean that you are a good church musician - there's a whole raft of questions, surrounding this, including issues of commitment and accountability, but for me the key question is:- "Is it right for a non-believer to take a position of leadership in Christian worship?"  In an ideal world, the answer would be a very firm "no" - but we don't live in an ideal world!

Choir and Organ magazine recently published an education supplement, listing & discussing some of the courses available to organists and choir trainers, etc.  That included a leader by Martin Jean, director of the Yale Institute of Sacred Music, which makes interesting reading.  In it he writes, in the context of an outline of the selection process:- " .. if a student possesses no desire to know the inner workings of a faith tradition, we always wonder why they would pursue a career in church music.  Love of the organ will only get ehm so far and make them only so successful."

By definition, faith has to be experienced - it cannot be understood on a purely intellectual level, no matter how much evidence is mustered, and how many apologetics texts are read.

As "NonPlaying Anorak" said,
Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on November 07, 2010, 07:11:08 PM
At the same time, Crosdiva, I believe that there is some music (Messiaen's, for instance) which you cannot really get to the heart of without some Christian spirituality...

That's true - and it's also true that sometimes a musician's faith (or lack of faith) will somehow communicate through their playing.

Every Blessing

Tony

David Pinnegar

Quote from: revtonynewnham on November 08, 2010, 03:19:02 PMWhilst Crosivda is right - being a good musician doesn't necessarily mean that you are a good church musician - there's a whole raft of questions, surrounding this, including issues of commitment and accountability, but for me the key question is:- "Is it right for a non-believer to take a position of leadership in Christian worship?"  In an ideal world, the answer would be a very firm "no" - but we don't live in an ideal world!

:-) WOW! Is this the first thread on this forum to have reached its second page? :)

I think that it's part of the miracle of organs, and of bells, that sometimes the church invites into its faith people who have competance with such instruments requiring such total mastery who might otherwise not come into church. Through that experience, even on a subconscious level, the church has an influence on people who are not necessarily religious . . .

Somewhere on this thread or another I read a reference to the "two agnostics" on this list . . . I'm wondering if that included me? I raise questions which, I'm sure, many people have in their minds but don't always necessarily want to express, and that their exposure out in the open can only do good.

If I appear agnostic, it's because I'm not actually, quite. As a physicist who pays hommage to the natural laws of the universe from which I acknowlege none can escape - <<in the beginning was the "word", the "law", the "sound">> - I am neither agnostic nor atheist . . . but I challenge the stories that we are spoon-fed being taken at face value in their full literal sense. Just as Christ spoke in parables, all those stories of relgion are themselves a parable to the eternal truths, but just as with parables, one has to scratch beneath the surface to discover their profundity.

The problem is in the personification of God. The personification happens because through the natural laws of physics and quantum physics, both in the dimensions that we can see and those which we cannot, present themselves in the natural order of time to work as a giant system which holds together and which presents the illusion of a giant intelligent mind. That's because all things are linked, as in the mind, and so arguably is a mind. In that is literally the mind of God.

Of course the parables and the stories that we experience are the means by which the knowledge of the infinite mystery of the mind is discovered and transferred.

Organists and composers who master an instrument and its works which lead to the contemplation of the mind should certainly be part of the machinery of the operation of the propagation of the mind of God.

Perhaps I'm saying that people exist whose faith extends deeper than the superficial appearances of Christianity, or Islam, Hindu, Jain or Buddhist philosophy.

A book on everyone's reading list should be "The Golden Bough" by Frazer. Tracing religion to the worship of trees, anthropologically the author investigates the evolution of religion. Somewhere along the line, Kings always had to be killed. Today we set up politicians only to murder them by a subsequent generation of voting. There are some very amusing and also profound examples of this in primitive societies which I'll transcribe if anyone would like me to.

Godliness and Kingship were always akin and Kings, as the all powerful on earth, were often worshipped as Gods. On the basis of this, it is only to have been expected that INRI Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum should be killed whilst he was still a hero and his people thereby required him to be killed. It's a story of human nature and part of the eternal mystery of our psyche and the mind of the universe from which it derives . . .

Best wishes

David P

Michael H

I wonder if people think I am an atheist? The reason is: I believe in God but I believe God does not exist. Anything that exists is by definition limited, and I cannot consider God as limited - rather, God is beyond existence. Perhaps I am a Christian atheist! It seems to me that people who normally think they are atheists are rejecting the very limited attempts to 'define' God. The Church needs that kind of understanding and that kind of input. Too often we make God in the image of man rather thsn thinking man is the image of God.
And where does music come into this? Just listen to (or play) some Bach (not emotional and turbulent 19th & 20th century organ works or pieces composed to demonstrate how clever the organist might be!) or listen to Allegri's Miserere or Tallis and you are carried beyond the inspiration that led to that music, you are lifted above questionable theology and trivial beliefs and you experience a deeper level of understanding. Increased consciousness - that's what we all need. 

NonPlayingAnorak

Quote from: David Pinnegar on November 08, 2010, 05:57:52 PM
Somewhere on this thread or another I read a reference to the "two agnostics" on this list . . . I'm wondering if that included me?

It was me said that, and no, I didn't include you in it (as I didn't think you were an agnostic).  :)

NonPlayingAnorak

Quote from: Michael H on November 08, 2010, 07:51:17 PMemotional and turbulent 19th & 20th century organ works or pieces composed to demonstrate how clever the organist might be!

Ahem ahem ahem! Are you seriously dismissing all that followed on from the Romantic revolution carried by Franck and Widor, on to the later French (and, indeed, German) composers?

NonPlayingAnorak

Quote from: David Pinnegar on November 08, 2010, 05:57:52 PM
:-) WOW! Is this the first thread on this forum to have reached its second page? :)

No, it hasn't yet! That's the other thread on the evil of religious fundamentalism...

KB7DQH

Keep an eye on the "organ concerts" and "Organs in danger" categories... Those have reached two pages of "topics"...    Lots of good stuff here, there, everywhere ;)

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

KB7DQH

The "easy" way to figure some of this stuff out is to log in, click on "more stats" and look at Top Ten Topics (by replies)...

The other "toasty" hot topic is "why electronic organs fail to impress in their Grand Tutti Full Organ"

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

David Pinnegar

Quote from: Michael H on November 08, 2010, 07:51:17 PM
I wonder if people think I am an atheist? The reason is: I believe in God but I believe God does not exist. Anything that exists is by definition limited, and I cannot consider God as limited - rather, God is beyond existence. Perhaps I am a Christian atheist! It seems to me that people who normally think they are atheists are rejecting the very limited attempts to 'define' God. The Church needs that kind of understanding and that kind of input. Too often we make God in the image of man rather thsn thinking man is the image of God.
And where does music come into this? Just listen to (or play) some Bach (not emotional and turbulent 19th & 20th century organ works or pieces composed to demonstrate how clever the organist might be!) or listen to Allegri's Miserere or Tallis and you are carried beyond the inspiration that led to that music, you are lifted above questionable theology and trivial beliefs and you experience a deeper level of understanding. Increased consciousness - that's what we all need.

Dear Michael

This must be one of the most profound descriptions or affirmations that anyone can give . . . Perhaps priests should become organists . . . ?

:-)

Best wishes

David P

Holditch

Hello,

I decided to post here so we can all get an opinion from an "Atheist Organist"

I am also sorry this is a long post!

From what I discuss you will probably agree that I am an enigma and maybe should go and do something else, but hopefully you will see my disagreement of "why Atheist can't be organists"

A bit of history first

I have been to church on a very regular basis (most Sundays) since I was born. My father is a church going Anglican Christian. As a child it was where I was on a Sunday. I joined the choir at the age of 7, earned several RSCM medals and attended Friday night choir practice on a regular basis. At the age of 11 and because I attended a school with an organ, I started to learn to play.

At the age of 15 my father enrolled me to play at a local church. I was at this stage quite enthusiastic to do this, so I could gain experience in playing and as I had been involved in the church for some time, it was not a new experience. As a 15 year old an extra £ 7.50 in the pocket was also a welcome gift! (the organ was a very basic electronic affair)

For the next three years I played regularly on a Sunday at this church (only missing maybe four or five in a year). I enjoyed the welcome and liked to offer a service, which everyone appreciated.

I then moved out of the area and there was a gap where I didn't play the organ. A couple of years passed by and my sister, who was getting married, asked me to play the organ for her wedding, including Widor. Eek, being a bit rusty I thought I had better get up to scratch.

I was living at the age of 18 in South Manchester and thought where is one to find a pipe organ? Ah the local church. I made contact with them and asked if I could have a couple of practice sessions on the organ. The wonderful Vicar at the time, a man named Dick Gilpin, said no problem. I was at my second practice session when the assistant curate asked what I did on a Sunday morning. I did say that I used to play but not for a few years. I did at this point realise that I missed the regular playing and also the fellowship of the people I was playing for, so agreed to start playing again on a Sunday morning.

I played regularly for the next 6 years. The organ was an old University two manual reed organ as this was the sister church (awful, but that didn't matter)

The congregation of this church was small but they all attended very regularly and they were loyal to the church.

Then the sister church got closed down to allow funds to be moved into the main church for maintenance purposed. I was now redundant.

I was then asked by the main church to become the full time organist and choirmaster as the existing organist was retiring. I was still only in my early 20's. I felt because I was not a Christian that this would not be the best thing to do as the commitment, eventhough I enjoyed playing greatly, would probably too great so declined.

About six years passed and I met my now wonderful wife. She regularly goes to church and is a devout Christian. She is a pianist and has on occasion played the organ in the event of the regular organist not being available. With this in mind she was asked to stand in at a church in South Manchester. I had missed playing for sometime so I suggested that I could play and she agreed.

Having not played for some time, I was a little rusty, however the mechanics of playing for service soon returned. Once again, I was asked by the team vicar if I did very much on a Sunday morning. I agreed to play once a month to get started with, however within a month or two that became every Sunday.

The church I play at every Sunday is St Richard's, Peel Hall, Wythenshawe. I have been there over two years now. We have not had a vicar for over a year and are in interregnum. I have chosen all the hymns for this period myself and I feel part of this community even though I am not a believer in Christ. I enjoy giving the small congregation my offering of music, be it basic. They appreciate me greatly as they tell me every week and I know if I was to leave then this could be detrimental to the future of the church. The organ is very basic (A single manual Sixsmith extension organ). I know I am not a good organist, but I am very enthusiastic and am now due to my age (37) becoming more committed to improving. I want to keep playing to organ and making people happy and that can only happen at church. So this is the enigma, what do I do?

Do I leave the church to fend for itself without a musician? In this team there are five churches with only three organists. I cannot see my beliefs changing in the near future, considering that I have spent so much time listening to the Christian doctrine.



(I have not discussed my feelings and love for organ music here as that discussion could go on forever, but I have the same feelings and love for church organ music I believe as a Christian does)

Am I an outcast, an impostor? That is my argument

Thanks for reading

Marc



PS I would also like to point out that Atheists do not know everything as has been previously commented upon, there are fundamentalists claiming these things in every faith and following. If we knew everything wouldn't life be so simple!
Dubois is driving me mad! must practice practice practice

revtonynewnham

Hi

Interesting.  Have you ever thought just why you don't believe?  (You don't need to answer on line!).  I assume that you're involvement in a church indicates that you're not anti-Christian or anti-religion per se.

The fact is that Christianity isn't just a series of beliefs - it's a relationship with God.  Maybe the same will happen to you as to a friend of mine several years ago.  He had difficulty with the supernatural aspects of Christianity.  My comment to Him was that "one day you'll encounter God, and everything else will drop into place.

So, don't leave the church - keep at it.  It's not a new thing.  There are countless church members who got involved or started attending church for various reasons - and found after a time that belief had grown.  We have one who came to church at 94 - and asked for membership at 100 - so perhaps there's time for you.

Every Blessing

Tony

David Pinnegar

#17
Dear Marc

Thank you so much for writing and doing so so very openly. I'm sure that there are many people who will not only understand your story but will find strands in their lives which will resonate.

When I was young I belonged to a local Youth Fellowship, perhaps more because there was no other real youth gathering in the village than from a real desire to go to such Sunday evening substitutes for Church. One of the girls, in particular, was a particular attraction,  :) although it never resulted in anything "improper"  ;) . At this stage in my life it was difficult to reconcile the faith into which I had grown with the apparent need to demonstratively be "born again" within the social group in which I found myself here.

I suspect that you miss likewise that blinding light of inspiration in being "born again", so exciting to so many.

At this stage, being conscious of not being "born again" I really wondered whether I really could be Christian.

But later on, I started seeing signposts in my life and, coming to happen by accident to be curating a temple of Apollo (although subsequent research might be related more to Dionysus), Apollo connexions led to finding my wife, and when Jehovah's Witnesses come to the doorstep, jokingly I tell them that there is little they can do for me  ;) on account of my being a priest of a temple of Apollo.  ;D Being given a copy of the Parthenon Freize was certainly a life changing event in my life. The Jehovah's Witnesses tend to run away very fast and none have come to try to convert me in quite a while now . . .  :D

Perhaps many people with faith can find in their lives a pattern of events that in themselves would be reasonably impossible to the extent that a pre-ordained plan, or the "hand of God", becomes the only rationalisation. This then enables such people to be a bit adventurous, in the perceived service of God, by stepping out in what might appear to be improbable directions confident in the knowledge that God is behind their direction and there to pick them up, guide, direct and rescue them should they stumble.

A few times a year I happen to be around for an evensong at the boys' school and Chaplains are of varying inspiration. One related how in his life he'd been really in the doldrums and life really had not been going anywhere at all. So he decided to give God a go. He decided to give himself six months pretending to himself that God exists. This seemed to work so well in the course of his life that he came to the conclusion that God was a reality, that God exists, and his life has never looked back.

Truth or self delusion? A state of mind? Positive thinking? Self persuasion? A preordained life plan? The work of God?

What is God?

I have written before about God possibly being the set of laws of energy, mass and forces, fundamental to all things animate and inanimate. God is therefore the way in which all works together, all matter, all people, all.

Just because God has not "revealed himself" in some startlingly dramatic way, recognisably, it does not necessarily mean that God is not at work in your life. The fact that you appear to be repeatedly drawn back into playing the organ in Church appears to be a common theme for which there might be a purpose. Is there someone there who you are meant to be helping? Is there someone who needs you there? You never know what might happen. Perhaps pretend that there is a purpose and look for it, and then you might find it . . .

Qui La Cerca, La Troba
(Qui la Chercha, La Trova - Chi cerca lo trova) - He who seeks it finds it. This was the Latrobe family motto . .. and Benjamin Henry Latrobe ended up after bankruptcy in England architectural adviser to Presidents Madison and Jefferson and working on the White House and completing the Capitol in Washington DC - oh - and more bankruptcy! But certainly he achieved greatness and is remembered. Every time you see a trash American film on television and see columns outside the courthouse . . . that's the inspiration of Latrobe - classical buildings for public architecture - and a town named after his nephew and a university named after another nephew.

Reality or self fulfilling prophecy by self delusion. . . Does it matter?

It works. Perhaps God is there but because you expect him or "the force" in the form in which others tell you about, you don't recognise it.

Please don't take this in any way derogarotily - I may be reading more into your description than you intend but perhaps even if what I have written does not apply in any way to you, it might help others. . . . But perhaps I'm writing rubbish . . .

If you would like me to delete this post, please don't hesitate to ask.

Best wishes

David P




David Pinnegar

#18
Dear Marc

:-) Perhaps Tony has answered well in another thread
QuoteJust because God is at work doesn't mean that He is recognized!

But seriously, I woke up wanting to try to give a better answer than that which I had written last evening and perhaps following on from:

I was going to write to tell you about a little test that I had constructed to examine whether a supernatural power was in reality in my life or whether faith is a matter of self delusion . . . and I might talk about that in due course . . . but as one is not meant to test one's God it seemed appropriate that God seemed rapidly to find another way. . .

Innocently I went up to Church to go to ring the bells . . . and stayed to the service.  What was on the agenda for the service and sermon . . . but possibly the answer to your question. (This sort of thing happened to a friend last Autumn when she went to Church and about five times in succession heard the same lesson and sermon applicable to her circumstances)

Essentially following the lesson from verse 20 of
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201&version=NIV
the sermon followed the theme of "are you following a religion or a relationship?"

A religion just requires the saying of words whereas a relationship is one of action and reaction, response. This is perhaps what I was saying in terms of
Quote
Quote from: David Pinnegar on January 30, 2011, 04:20:41 AM
Perhaps many people with faith can find in their lives a pattern of events that in themselves would be reasonably impossible to the extent that a pre-ordained plan, or the "hand of God", becomes the only rationalisation. This then enables such people to be a bit adventurous, in the perceived service of God, by stepping out in what might appear to be improbable directions confident in the knowledge that God is behind their direction and there to pick them up, guide, direct and rescue them should they stumble.

So perhaps that Chaplain who recommended the young people to try giving faith a go, just pretending it existed even, to see what happened might be the answer. One has to take that step, to see what happens, to see if one can step forward with confidence in the right direction. It's like a child learning to walk, who does not stand up because he can't see how it's possible and he might fall, but he learns to, and then there's no looking back.

I find it difficult when one is asked to pray in a service and to be silent so that God might "speak" so that I can hear Him. I have never heard God's voice.

Instead God speaks not in words but in actions. How could I possibly have expected to go to Church today with your description on my mind, normally to find any one of a random subject areas discussed in teachings and a sermon but today in particular to actually be given an answer to give to you better than the thoughts I had had. This can be the way in which what is said to be the Holy Spirit works.

When one takes well intended action by oneself, when one acts on account of self delusion, of course by the power of positive thinking, one directs one's course in a linear way. One action is additive to another and the sequyence is additive.

When one takes action with a faith, the result is, to use rather a cheesy sort of expression, action +. In the beginning 2+2 and 2x2 looks the same, but when "action plus" is the mechanism, it's multiplicative. So 2+2 looks like 2x2 which is 2 to the power of 2. But on the next step, the answer is not the additive 6 but 2 to the power of 3 and then 2 to the power of 4.  . . . So one begins to perceive, forgive the cheesy analogy, the power of God . . . It begins to look like a miracle.

I hope that the lay preacher who talked about faith being a relationship rather than religion might join this forum and add the two or three ways of recognising the signposts to lead one forward in a relationship.

Best wishes

David P



Michael H

#19
CANTATE DEO - A message for atheistic organists or organic atheists . . .

Do you not see that I can be
and not exist, this paradox?
Existing would restrict and give me form;
Such limitations cannot encompass the infinite.
So let your faith embrace the non-believers
for both are right and both are wrong.
Know then now that I do not exist,
but call all life into expression;
my being is thus crystallised
in all that you see manifest.
And Christ, the one you think an only Son,
has crossed the bounds of many faiths
and goes by different names.
Through Him you come to understand
and realise a higher plane -
His consciousness is mine.
And you are part of this as well,
in all its fullness and its glory.
Now is the time to make it so.

                               (from The Hammerwood Heretic)