3M Norman and Beard Kent redundant - Stone London County Asylum

[hector17]

The London County Asylum Hospital at Stone, Dartford, closed a few years ago and is going to be re-developed soon.  There is a fine 3m Norman and Beard instrument available to anyone who can rescue it.  It is in beautiful condition, nice casework and has really been looked after and appreciated.  It falls under my remit as DOA, despite having been made redundant, and the current owners are trying to be extremely respectful to all fixtures and fittings of this large chapel.  No wanton bulldozing here, just a desire to ensure that the organ goes to a good home.  There is no power to the chapel now and it is not possible to try the organ - although power could be laid on; at cost, of course.  Could any interested parties please get in touch with me in the first instance.  I have a sheet with a photo of the console and also the stoplist.  I will put you then in touch with the developers who will arrange access.

PM me for further information.

Paul Isom

[Barrie Davis]

Paul

Could you possibly add the stoplist to NPOR please, or email me and I will add it.

Best wishes

Barrie

[David Pinnegar]

although power could be laid on; at cost, of course. 

I have a 3kW generator if that's useful and the blower can just be plugged in . . .

[rh1306]

http://www.sageforconstruction.co.uk/IndustryNews/housebuilder_industry_news_selected.aspx?aid=2247

[makemoreandmore]

Any update on this?

I would hate to see this one scrapped, but am looking for some authentic N+B accessories for our rescued one.

[Wadsworth]

Any development on the Stone Organ...no spec on NPOR

We are looking for a decent 3 manual at St German's Cathedral, Peel, IOM

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

The stop list may well be in the N&B archives held by the British Organ Archive.  An enquiry (contact details on the BIOS web site) may well come up with that information.

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Drinkell]

Any development on the Stone Organ...no spec on NPOR

We are looking for a decent 3 manual at St German's Cathedral, Peel, IOM

It's a pity that wonderful Willis III from St. Jude's, Thornton Heath has gone to Japan (I think).  It would have sounded great in St. German's (and with the boxes open you could probably use it to accompany services in the old cathedral down by the shore!).  All credit, however, to those who saved it from destruction - I think Carlo Curley had something to do with it.

[Contrabombarde]

Any development on the Stone Organ...no spec on NPOR

We are looking for a decent 3 manual at St German's Cathedral, Peel, IOM

Out of curiousity, what happened to the 3 manual Brindley and Foster at St German's? NPOR suggests it was reduced to 2 manuals at some point in the past half century, but other than that what condition is it in?

[David Drinkell]

Wadsworth will know more about it, but it was rebuilt by Laycock & Bannister as a two manual - they did a lot of work on the Island.  It was in good form when I used to visit the Isle of Man (wonderful place, and only 20 minutes by plane from Belfast!), but that was about twelve years ago.  A larger and more comprehensive instrument would be a great asset if they're aiming to build up a proper 'cathedral' music tradition.  I'm sure everyone will wish them every success in this imaginative and worthwhile task.

[makemoreandmore]

I'm just curious - is the organ afforded any protection under the listed building status?

In Wales, CADW, the government department that looks after historic buildings, will not permit so much as a pipe to be removed from an organ in a building that is listed.

That gives the rather incongruous situation that whilst a listed building is the property of a denomination, the organ can be ripped out, but the moment the building is sold, it cannot.

I just wondered what is the stance of English Heritage (or whatever is the equivalent of CADW in England is) regarding this as http://www.dartford.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/63595/StoneHouseDevelopmentFrameworkMar08.pdf  seems to indicate that the preferred option for the Chapel is that it remains 'as is' in so far as not being split up:-

6.3.2 The Conservation Strategy identifies the following principles for the conversion of
the listed buildings:
• Proposals for the alteration of the listed buildings should accord with national
Government guidance (PPG15) and policies on the historic environment in the
Dartford Local Plan;
• New uses should minimise the adverse impact on the special historic and
architectural interest of the site;
• If possible, some element of community use should be introduced in a part of
the historic buildings;
• Either vertical or horizontal subdivision of the main building is acceptable;
• The subdivision of grander spaces such as the Great Hall, the theatre above
and the Chapel should be resisted. If subdivision is necessary this needs to be
rigorously justified and treated sensitively;
• Pedestrian links could be made through the main building by creating
archways or tunnels through the building at ground floor level
• Original fixtures and fittings should be retained and restored where possible;
and
• Proposals for the conversion or alteration of the Chapel should be submitted to
the Diocese of Rochester for approval.
6.3.3 The main hospital building, including the male infirmary, original pavilion blocks

If that is the case, the organ could be retained in the hope that, one day, an enlightened generation might arise and restore it, and in accordance with the above, maybe the 'Diocese of Rochester' could ask for the organ to be retained in situ, and obtain a sum of money out of the developers' profits to refurbish it   8)

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

There is no protection in England for organs in listed buildings, except in the (very) few cases where they are mentioned in the listing descriptions.

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

Whilst, as Tony says, there is no protection for organs per se it depends to some extent on whether an instrument was specifically designed for the building at the time the building was built, and therefore can be argued to be part of the conception of the listed building.

A further lesser argument can be made if the sound of the organ as unaltered for some generations has become part of the accepted sound of the building. This could be a powerful argument, for instance, where a church was built as a war memorial, the organ being part of that endowment and an instrument of its time and superbly suitable for the music of the period.

There are two examples of instruments being retained in situ within developments - Ashdown Park Hotel, which used to be a convent, at Wych Cross in Forest Row and the sports centre of the Royal Earlswood Park at Redhill which used to be a looney bin.

Best wishes

David P

[hector17]

I have been re-jigging my own website and have posted some information about the organ in the form of official reports and photos of the organ.  This leads me to another thought - I am happy for my website to be used as a conduit for information on redundant organs needing new homes.  There will be no rules as to whether it's historic, mechanical, electric action or whatever.  There are some websites up and running, but information is not very easy to access.  I would aim to be able to embed word or PDF files, include photos and the odd sound file.  I'm happy to provide this service free of charge, but people must come forward with the information.  Ideally I'd like chapter and verse in terms of information and some photos.  I won't have time to edit your files, just to post them on the website.  If it really takes off I may well set up a separate website dealing exclusively with redundant organs.  Now - it is up to you to provide information, keep me up to date if the organ has found a new home etc etc.  This service will be free as I do believe that there is a need for such a service.

My website is www.paulisom.com
Paul Isom

[makemoreandmore]

I have pasted below from http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/your-property/planning-advice/what-can-i-do-with-my-listed-building/

"What does listing cover?

Listed status covers a whole building, both inside and out. "

Also http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/your-property/planning-advice/what-can-i-do-with-my-place-of-worship/

"Our role is to promote and enable sustainable changes. Our main concerns are to make sure that the special interest of the building is preserved and that nothing of value is irretrievably lost as a result of new works. "

Also http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/content/publications/publicationsNew/guidelines-standards/new-work-in-historic-places-of-worship/places-of-worship-2012.pdf

"Organs
Organs can be among the most significant features of
a church or chapel interior, not least because of their
size. Sometimes designed to be an integral part of the
fitting-out of the building, many display considerable
quality in design and craftsmanship. In such cases we
would encourage their retention in situ. English Heritage
is not able to offer advice on questions relating to the
musical value of pipe organs or their relative merits
when compared with electronic alternatives, but
many denominational bodies do have specialist organ
consultants."

Furnishings.

The age, rarity and quality of the internal
furnishings and fittings should be assessed, particularly
in terms of their historical and aesthetic values, and the
extent of completeness of the overall arrangement.
Any past history of re-ordering or alteration should
be taken into account. Fittings of the 19th and
20th century, although relatively recent in date, may
nevertheless comprise the most important features
of an interior. Modest examples of local craftsmanship
should equally be given recognition.

Accordingly, I do not see that the situation in England is any different to that in Wales. A 'listed building' is listed, irrespective of what the listing specifies as making that building worthy of listing.

Since English Heritage recommends 'retention in situ' in the above circumstances, and when considered in the light of the last quote regarding 'the most important features of an interior', I cannot see how anyone, whether acting under ecclesiastical exemption or otherwise, can justify the removal of this organ.

Much as I would love to have the entire Choir division, console, Sw Mixture and Trumpet for my 1910 N+B rebuild...