Ayr-Cathedral of the Good Shepherd

[barniclecompton]

http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=R00220

Thats all the information i can find on it. The church closed a few years back and nothing has been heard of it since. As far as i know the organ is still there.

[Barrie Davis]

What was the organ?

[barniclecompton]

Its a 25 stop Hilsdon, the details are on the NPOR link in the original post above.

[barniclecompton]

Word seems to be that the building is coming down, with only the bell tower and the front wall being retained. Nothing about the organ though!

[David Pinnegar]

Oh dear! Is this going to be another organ lost to a bulldozer and wrecking ball?

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Word seems to be that the building is coming down, with only the bell tower and the front wall being retained. Nothing about the organ though!

Why so? Is it derelict? And how did Ayr end up with two Catholic cathedrals anyway? It's hardly the centre of the Universe... or even that part of Scotland.

Problem being, Scotland is short of decent organbuilders - Sandy Edmonstone's wrecking of the big Rothwell in Perth comes to mind, turning a glorious Orchestral Oboe into a horrid honky Krummhorn, amongst other things, plus the shoddiness and unreliability of Lammermuir... but we need to try and see if anyone could take it. It looks like a basically useful organ - a Trombone/Trumpet unit on the Pedal, a Mixture and a Trumpet on the Great, would add a lot of versatility too. It looks from the specification as though it could be a Lewis, or maybe a Binns or Forster & Andrews... just guesswork, I know, and the spec is pretty generic. Still, if the pipework is of sufficient quality, that at least could be really useful.

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

There's no reason why it shouldn't be by Hilsdon, as the NPOR survey says.  I have no reason to doubt that - and the surveyor is/was an organ builder (not one of the ones you mention!), so he should know what he's talking about.

As to the "wrecking" of an organ, have you considered that the changes might have been down to the resident organist or the adviser - organ builders can't always do things how they would want to and still get paid!

Every Blessing

Tony

[NonPlayingAnorak]

I did once hear of an organbuilder who told a client to get stuffed when the client laid out their plans for the organ...

As for the organ possibly/possibly not being Hilsdon, may I quote the following from NPOR:

Builders
Undated    H. Hilsdon   Glasgow
rebuilt; original builder unknown;

It would certainly seem likely that the 32ft and 4ft Pedal stops are later additions (from the Hilsdon rebuild), and possibly one or both of the 8ft stops.

I presume that the "MMcD" given as the surveyor is M. McDonald... the same guy who cleaned http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=R00223 in 1987?

Also, 'if' one couldn't find a decent Scottish builder to look at the Hilsdon, I happen to know that Harrisons have work in that area... and not very far away in Paisley too.

[Barrie Davis]

Your reply is very fine and its all very good to make suggestions but it all boils down to available cash. My church cannot afford to pay its quota let alone consider embarking on an organ scheme. Vat is increasing, inflation will be as well..........

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Indeed. The Diocesan Quota has got ridiculous. Maybe it's time we considered closing a few cathedrals and merging dioceses? Reduce Portsmouth back to Parish Church status (with Winchester and Chichester both so close by, they really don't need Portsmouth too), close my local, Guildford Bus Stationsorry Cathedral, with its lousy organ and impossible acoustics/organ placement issues, restore the diocese to Southwark and Winchester... close/restore to PC status Birmingham (again, horrible building, and another cathedral - Coventry - close by)... or close Basil Spence's brutalist brick instead? Do we really need Chelmsford between St Paul's and St Edmundsbury? Does Lancashire really need THREE Anglican cathedrals? Do we need the ex-Parish Churches of Leicester and Derby when we've got Southwell fairly close to both? Does Yorkshire really justify FIVE Anglican cathedrals?

Or maybe the CofE could allow a bit of RC-style democracy, make the parish churches the property and responsibility of the parishes, thus relieving itself of the burden... I'm sure that could save some money.

[barniclecompton]

If Micheal McDonald done any work on it, it wont be much better, if at all, than it was before.

[Barrie Davis]

Or maybe the CofE could allow a bit of RC-style democracy, make the parish churches the property and responsibility of the parishes, thus relieving itself of the burden... I'm sure that could save some money.

I really must agree with you there, we are paying in the region of £65k a year to Worcester, this being on top of all the normal expenses of the parish. For a dwindling aging congregation of some 160 spread between 3 churches this amount is impossible. What does it pay for? Surely 2 clergy doesnt equal that amount?

The organ needs the Swell and Positif actions releathered and the action put onto solid state but I'm afraid this is very much a dream. The organ tuners battle with missing notes but it is now reaching a stage where little or no more work can be done.

[revtonynewnham]

Indeed. The Diocesan Quota has got ridiculous. Maybe it's time we considered closing a few cathedrals and merging dioceses? Reduce Portsmouth back to Parish Church status (with Winchester and Chichester both so close by, they really don't need Portsmouth too), close my local, Guildford Bus Stationsorry Cathedral, with its lousy organ and impossible acoustics/organ placement issues, restore the diocese to Southwark and Winchester... close/restore to PC status Birmingham (again, horrible building, and another cathedral - Coventry - close by)... or close Basil Spence's brutalist brick instead? Do we really need Chelmsford between St Paul's and St Edmundsbury? Does Lancashire really need THREE Anglican cathedrals? Do we need the ex-Parish Churches of Leicester and Derby when we've got Southwell fairly close to both? Does Yorkshire really justify FIVE Anglican cathedrals?

Or maybe the CofE could allow a bit of RC-style democracy, make the parish churches the property and responsibility of the parishes, thus relieving itself of the burden... I'm sure that could save some money.

Hi

The issue is about the area and number of churches involved - for instance, Bradford Diocese isn't limited to our corner of West Yorkshire, but stretches up almost to Carlisle - and that makes it one of the most rural in the country!  There is a scheme afoot to merge the Yorkshire diocese into one, based on Wakefiled, but to retain area Bishops (which would be needed) and the other cathedrals - certainly, if Bradford was closed or reverts to just a Parish Church it would have a negative impact on Christian witness in the city.

Every Blessing

Tony

[Jonathan Lane]

Word seems to be that the building is coming down, with only the bell tower and the front wall being retained. Nothing about the organ though!

Why so? Is it derelict? And how did Ayr end up with two Catholic cathedrals anyway? It's hardly the centre of the Universe... or even that part of Scotland.

Problem being, Scotland is short of decent organbuilders - Sandy Edmonstone's wrecking of the big Rothwell in Perth comes to mind, turning a glorious Orchestral Oboe into a horrid honky Krummhorn, amongst other things, plus the shoddiness and unreliability of Lammermuir... but we need to try and see if anyone could take it. It looks like a basically useful organ - a Trombone/Trumpet unit on the Pedal, a Mixture and a Trumpet on the Great, would add a lot of versatility too. It looks from the specification as though it could be a Lewis, or maybe a Binns or Forster & Andrews... just guesswork, I know, and the spec is pretty generic. Still, if the pipework is of sufficient quality, that at least could be really useful.

I really have to disagree about Perth, Sandy did a superb job with the organ and produced a very versatile instrument.  When I played it in 2001, when I interviewed and was offered the DofM post, he apologised for it being a little out of tune, it was damn near immaculate!

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Hmm... it would appear that the Krummhorn has gone from Perth! Was it something Edmonstone did and then removed, or did it actually date from Rushworths' rebuild in 1961? My father lived up that neck of the woods and knew the instrument, but whether he ever heard the old Orch. Oboe or not (just picking it up from friends in the local organ community) I don't know!

On a slightly different tack, reading of what was done down the years to St Ninian's Perth, have a read of this:

after maintenance was transferred to Nicholson, a number of DIY tonal changes were gradually effected: Septieme changed to 22nd; Swell Bourdon changed to Stopped Diapason to replace the Great Hohl Flute; Nazard and Tierce replaced the Swell strings and a Victorian Piccolo replaced the Vox Humana; a secondhand Oboe made a Swell 16' (TC) reed, and one of two Choir flutes was tuned into a celeste; the Great Diapasons 8,4,2 had their toe holes opened up and the Sesquialtera 17.19.22 was remade into a Mixture 19.22.26

I cannot understand this! On a 43-stop English Romantic organ, strings are essential, a manual Bourdon 16' is pretty useful, a Septième is useful for some French repertoire, a Vox Humana is absolutely essential (and it already had a 2ft stop), an 8ft Oboe is jolly useful too (though I see it's gained one on the Solo... but what's the point of a T.C. 16ft reed?), revoicing diapasons is usually a recipe for disaster, as is mucking about with mixture compositions like that... I note with interest, though, the addition of an "Erzahler" - unique this side of the pond? One is pleased to see, though, that the Swell strings (and 8ft Oboe) are back... and the case does look rather fine! Sort of like Truro... definitely Pearsonesque.

[NonPlayingAnorak]

If Micheal McDonald done any work on it, it wont be much better, if at all, than it was before.

Why not? What's wrong with him and his workmanship?

[barniclecompton]

If Micheal McDonald done any work on it, it wont be much better, if at all, than it was before.

Why not? What's wrong with him and his workmanship?

You only need to look at the botch over he done at ayr town hall to understand that!

[revtonynewnham]

 I note with interest, though, the addition of an "Erzahler" - unique this side of the pond?

Hi

Not quite unique - although I don't know if the other stop still exists - it's in an early 1900's rather large house organ by Halmshaw & Conacher - see http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N07282

One of the perks of being one of the nPOR editors is that I can still access some of the rarely-used functions that were removed in the most recent software updates - like searching for stop names!)

Every Blessing

Tony

[Barrie Davis]

Showing my ignorance what kind of stop is it? Fog Horns like the old Diaphones at Worcester?

Did Conachers take over Halmshaw?

[NonPlayingAnorak]

If Micheal McDonald done any work on it, it wont be much better, if at all, than it was before.

Why not? What's wrong with him and his workmanship?

You only need to look at the botch over he done at ayr town hall to understand that!

I know nothing of this... as I understood it was an untouched Lewis. Sorry, being resident in Surrey, Ayr is a long way away, the furthest North I've ever been is Manchester (my mother was taking her FRCO at the Royal Northern - I was about two, but, when we went into the Cathedral, I was still able to point up from my pushchair under the tower and say "Look, Daddy, look at that wonderful fan-vaulting!". Yes, that one really is true.