Five manuals?

[liberclavis]

Someone, somewhere knows the answer - so please tell me: how many five-manual organs were there in England in 1913.  Why then? because I am writing an article about the moribund Cavaille-Coll organ in Manchester Town Hall.  It started life as a three-deck, C-C added a fourth in 1893 and Lewis a fifth in 1913.  The only verifiable ones I can find are Doncaster, Calne, St Pauls and Westminster Abbey.  Not sure when the Christ's Hospital one was put in.  Any additions to this list, anyone?  Thanks

[Robin Stalker]

Liverpool 2x 5 manual consoles

The partially completed circa 1940's scheme at Tewkesbury - now gone

[diapason]

I have a feeling that the former Tewkesbury 5-decker console passed into the ownership of Paul Derrett.

[Barrie Davis]

Hi
Yes Paul has the Tewkesbury monster, it was a nightmare to play with so many "prepared for" stops.

Best wishes

Barrie

[pcnd5584]

Someone, somewhere knows the answer - so please tell me: how many five-manual organs were there in England in 1913.  Why then? because I am writing an article about the moribund Cavaille-Coll organ in Manchester Town Hall.  It started life as a three-deck, C-C added a fourth in 1893 and Lewis a fifth in 1913.  The only verifiable ones I can find are Doncaster, Calne, St Pauls and Westminster Abbey.  Not sure when the Christ's Hospital one was put in.  Any additions to this list, anyone?  Thanks

That at Christ's Hospital, Horsham was rebuilt as a five-clavier instrument in 1931, by Rushworth and Dreaper. However, the fifth clavier only controlled the West End division - which consisted of three stops: an Open Diapason 8ft., an Octave Diapason 4ft. (given erroneously as 8ft., in the NPOR survey) and a Tuba Magna (C.S. Lang was the Director of Music there, between 1929 - 45).

To your verified list, you can add the following:

Hexham Abbey (HN&B, 1904: V/47)

Norwich Cathedral (N&B, 1899: V/65 - including Gongs on the Echo Organ.)

Incidentally, in Calne (at the stated date), there were technically two five-clavier organs. Both were commissioned by Henry Harris, the bacon magnate; one for the parish church (Saint Mary the Virgin) and another for his private residence (Castle House). However, in the case of the instrument at his house, the Solo Organ was prepared-for, only.*

Incidentally, 'diapason' is correct - Paul Derrett now owns the five-clavier console, which was formerly connected to the instrument in Tewkesbury Abbey (in its previous incarnation). I did once play this instrument, although it was pretty much on its last 'pipes' by that time (1993).



* For the record, the instrument at Castle House is no longer present. That at the parish church is - although rebuilt and reduced to four claviers, in 1963, by the original firm (Conacher). Having played it on a number of occasions (including for a carol service with a capacity congregation), I can only describe it as a heap of junk. Tonally, it is a disaster; mechanically, it was somewhat unreliable. Apparently, in 2002, the church appealed for £250,000, in order to restore the instrument. The work was to be undertaken in three stages, with completion projected for 2008. I have no idea if this was achieved. However, if the targets were met and the restoration carried-out, I would hate to have to have played this instrument prior to its restoration - it must have been appalling.

[pcnd5584]

Liverpool 2x 5 manual consoles

The partially completed circa 1940's scheme at Tewkesbury - now gone

Since it was not constructed until 1926, the organ of Liverpool Anglican Cathedral is outside the scope of the survey (1913).

[David Drinkell]

I think Manchester Cathedral organ might have had five manuals at this time.

Did Hexham actually have five, or were the Echo and Solo Organs both played from the fourth manual?

Another uncertain one is Fort Augustus Abbey, by Loch Ness.  This was built (by Bryceson) for Nathaniel Holmes, Regent's Park, London, when apparently the Solo and Echo shared the top manual and there were only 'Solo' couplers.  It went to the Battersea Exhibition in 1885 and from there to Fort Augustus in 1894. Lawton of Aberdeen rebuilt it in 1936, by which time it had Echo couplers as well, but it still doesn't follow that it had five manuals!  Rushworths rebuilt it as a three-manual in 1979, reducing it in size drastically, and when the Abbey closed, moved it in 2000 to St. Peter's RC Church, Buckie, where it still is.  Despite its remoteness, there must be people around who remember it at Fort Augustus, and how many manuals it had.  I recall George McPhee and the late Richard Galloway vilifying Rushworths for having taken away the 32' reed and otherwise emasculating the job.

PCND and I have crossed swords over Calne PC before, on the Mander board.  I've played it, and I liked it.  Regarding the Castle House five-manual, I think NPOR is wrong in stating that the Solo Organ was prepared-for only.  When both the big Calne jobs were written up in the 'The Organ', it was stated that the Castle House Solo Organ was out of action due to rain damage, but the writer specifically mentioned the Stentorphone, its construction, and the difficulty of getting a sound out of the bigger pipes by blowing down them - so it must have been there!  This and some other Solo stops were by Weigle of Stuttgart - he added similar registers to the Gabler organ at Weingarten.

I shouldn't be surprised if we've all missed out one or two.  They turn up sometimes in unexpected places, like manual 32' stops (who would have guessed Melton Mowbray PC had one of those?).

In Musical Opinion for April (NB) 1993, Copeman Hart advertised their 'Countess' six-manual organ, suitable for home or small church and full BIOS-degradable. The same issue contained an article by me on the Organ of St. Stephen's, Ambridge.....

[pcnd5584]

I think Manchester Cathedral organ might have had five manuals at this time.

I am not sure about this - I shall check later. If it did, it can only have been between 1910, when Hill & Son rebuilt it, and 1918, when H&H carried out further work. It seems unlikely that it would be rebuilt with a fifth clavier, which was then removed only eight years earlier; even that at Birmingham Town Hall lasted for twenty-three years.

Did Hexham actually have five, or were the Echo and Solo Organs both played from the fourth manual?

As far as I know - yes. I do not have an index to The Organ, so I am not sure in which back-issue the article appears, but  I recall this too stating that the organ had five claviers at this time (i.e., in addition to the NPOR).

... PCND and I have crossed swords over Calne PC before, on the Mander board.  I've played it, and I liked it.  Regarding the Castle House five-manual, I think NPOR is wrong in stating that the Solo Organ was prepared-for only.  When both the big Calne jobs were written up in the 'The Organ', it was stated that the Castle House Solo Organ was out of action due to rain damage, but the writer specifically mentioned the Stentorphone, its construction, and the difficulty of getting a sound out of the bigger pipes by blowing down them - so it must have been there!  This and some other Solo stops were by Weigle of Stuttgart - he added similar registers to the Gabler organ at Weingarten. ...

I realise that everyone has their own ideas of how organs should sound - but in this case, I cannot imagine what you liked about it, David. A colleague who also played it thought that it was 'horrible - with no redeeming features whatsoever'. In addition, others who have also played it for the director of music of a local school (who is also an organist) also found it to be unpleasant and difficult to handle.

However - it is of course your prerogative....  I am also mindful of the fact that a number of contributors to the Mander board have an intense dislike for my 'own' church organ - which I regard as superb.

[David Drinkell]

When I saw 'Five Manuals' under the heading of 'Organs on eBay or for urgent sale', my first thought was that pcnd had put the organ of Calne PC up for sale without telling anyone.... :)

[pcnd5584]

When I saw 'Five Manuals' under the heading of 'Organs on eBay or for urgent sale', my first thought was that pcnd had put the organ of Calne PC up for sale without telling anyone.... :)

Ha! Now that is an interesting idea.... Perhaps I could hold it to ransom.

[David Pinnegar]

Has ever the number five caused such controversy ever before?

It looks as though the en chamade came on in full measure with an automatic coupler to the Bombardes! For five manuals my vote is for Albi . . .

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

Another uncertain one is Fort Augustus Abbey, by Loch Ness. 

Sounds like an elusive monster . . .

Best wishes

David P

[David Drinkell]

Yes - I'm sorry I moved to Scotland just too late to experience it in its glory, and that I never got round to playing even the reduced version.  Living in Orkney, Loch Ness is just as much 'South' as London....

Still, Rushworth's reductions meant that I, as Organist of St. Magnus Cathedral, had the biggest organ north of Aberdeen, a fact which caused consternation when my girl-friend-as-was (wife-as-is) mentioned it among a group of uninitiated in a Kirkwall bar.

The organ still retains a 'Trigon Flute'.  I haven't come across one of them anywhere else - sounds like something out of Harry Potter (the area would be about right, as all will know who recognise the Glenfinnan Viaduct being traversed by the Hogwarts Express).

I've just looked up Manchester Cathedral in Thornsby's 'Dictionary of Organs and Organists' (1st edition 1912); rebuilt Hill 1910.  5 manuals, 66 speaking stops, 20 other stops.  I think that Norman Cocker, in his article following the pre-World War II Harrison rebuild (one of the best and most affectionate pieces of writing in 'The Organ'), mentioned that it was very tiring playing the Screen Great Organ on the fifth manual, especially as the only manual to which it could be coupled was the Great.

Thornsby also attributes the Colston Hall, Bristol, as rebuilt by Norman & Beard in 1905, as having five manuals.  N&B certainly added a large Echo Organ, as well as amping things up at the other end of the spectrum, but I don't know if Thornsby is right on it having its own keyboard.  I think Bonavia Hunt wrote up the organ, possibly before and after the final Willis rebuild (which had four manuals) but I haven't had a chance to check.

[David Drinkell]

Here's another one:

"WIMBLEDON - WESTFIELD, WIMBLEDON COMMON. Private organ, the property of J. M. Boustead, Esq.  Built by Hunter. Contains a number of reed stops by Cavaille Coll of Paris, and a Cor Anglais of William Hill & Son. Contains four 32ft. stops and one 64ft. acoustic.  Pipes are in a basement below music room, and action is electric, the ordinary magnets used for electric bells being used, wound to a high resistance, and current supplied by the secondary batteries in the house.  Electric motors for blowers.  The effect sitting at the keys is of a cathedral organ.  Pipes ofpure tin or best spotted metal; wood stops of pine.  There are 5 manuals, 3 pedals, 108 speaking stops, 6 gongs, 78 pistons, 8 composition pedals, 3 touch pedals, 33 kicking pedals, and 2 swell pedals."
(Thornsby's Dictionary of Organs and Organists, 1st edition, 1912)

A five-manual Hunter would have been worth hearing.  He built in the grand style, and it looks as though this one was all there, unlike many on the South Coast (and, of course, St. Cuthbert, Philbeach Gardens, London), where Hunter seems to have been keen on providing for a lot more than was actually put in.

http://cdmnet.org/Julian/schemes/trz/boustead.htm

[pcnd5584]

... I've just looked up Manchester Cathedral in Thornsby's 'Dictionary of Organs and Organists' (1st edition 1912); rebuilt Hill 1910.  5 manuals, 66 speaking stops, 20 other stops.  I think that Norman Cocker, in his article following the pre-World War II Harrison rebuild (one of the best and most affectionate pieces of writing in 'The Organ'), mentioned that it was very tiring playing the Screen Great Organ on the fifth manual, especially as the only manual to which it could be coupled was the Great. ...

This is interesting, David. So another five-clavier organ was reduced to four.

I am not sure that I understand Norman Cocker's complaint. Surely the main purpose of the Screen G.O. was to support the singing of large congregations; therefore, I should have thought that it would have been be likely only to have played this division from the G.O. clavier - and coupled to a significant amount of the rest of the organ.

I know that Cocker was also a cinema organist, but I must admit that I regard the scheme that the organ had attained, prior to its destruction in WWII, was far superior to the weird stop-list which currently obtains - even though (on his appointment to succeed the late Norman Cocker) Allan Wicks had been able to secure some modifications to the scheme.

[David Drinkell]

Here's some stuff about the Calne organs, including quotes from the article in The Organ.  It would seem to prove that the Solo Organ at Castle House was indeed there, but out of action.

http://cdmnet.org/Julian/schemes/trz/calne.htm

Incidentally, the third Calne organ - only a mere three manual! - has been in Tolleshunt D'Arcy Church, Essex, for many years, where it was installed by (of all people) R.H. Walker.  As far as the ratio between size of church and amount of organ goes, it far exceeds the Calne Conacher in generosity!

[pcnd5584]

Here's some stuff about the Calne organs, including quotes from the article in The Organ.  It would seem to prove that the Solo Organ at Castle House was indeed there, but out of action.

http://cdmnet.org/Julian/schemes/trz/calne.htm

Incidentally, the third Calne organ - only a mere three manual! - has been in Tolleshunt D'Arcy Church, Essex, for many years, where it was installed by (of all people) R.H. Walker.  As far as the ratio between size of church and amount of organ goes, it far exceeds the Calne Conacher in generosity!

Reading through the comments (and even allowing for changes in taste regarding organ tone), I find the descriptions difficult to reconcile with the intrument which I have played on several occasions. In particular, the comment regarding the G.O. diapason chorus is, I suppose, coloured by the expectations of the period, when mixture work was generally in decline. However, I found the chorus to be neither magnificent nor 'a full flood of tone' - just dull and slightly tubby.

The comments regarding the Swell upper-work are even stranger. Caple wrote:  'The sharp mixture (as its name implies) is bold and brilliant, of high pitch and acute tone.' In fact it is anything but. As far as I can recall, it commences at 15-19-22 - so it is not a 'Sharp Mixture', by any definition; even the famous 'Clarion Mixture' stops of Walker began at 22-26-29 and, at that time, it is conceivable that these were regarded (at least by Gilbert Benham) as being of 'very high pitch' - a comment which was refuted by Cecil Clutton. In reality, the Swell so-called Sharp Mixture at Calne adds almost nothing to the chorus at all. Even without the reeds, it was difficult to tell whether it was drawn or not. (And no, I do not think that there is anything wrong with my hearing - others have said the same.)

[Contrabombarde]

The Wimbledon organ according to NPOR must have been a monster - choir, great, swell, echo, bombarde, solo and tuba divisions, with pipework by Walker, Willis, Cavaille Coll and Hunter. It rings a vague bell with me that at the turn of the twentieth century there was a monster five manual house organ somewhere so maybe this was it. The NPOR survey was done in 1940 though, and there is a mention it was transferred to St Mary the Virgin in Ringmer but in 1922?

I seem to recall the Copeman Hart six manual house organ advert from April 1993 too, though if I recall, it came out right at the beginning of the month.....

[David Drinkell]

Yes, the Boustead house organ went to Ringmer, presented by one of the Christie family, who owned Hill, Norman & Beard.  It was reduced to three manuals and just over forty speaking stops, but was still a lot of organ for a small church.  I believe it was revoiced quieter throughout in the 1950s, and HN&B made some changes in 1989.

Copeman Hart's 6 manual organ was indeed aimed at April 1st, as was the Ambridge article.