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Classical/church organists......

Started by barniclecompton, September 18, 2010, 07:19:56 PM

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barniclecompton

I dont know if im the only person on here who thinks this, but, does anyone else on here get the impression that many classical/church organists look down upon theatre organists and theatre instruments as inferior to themselfs and there instruments? :s

revtonynewnham

Hi

It's an attitude that I've come across at times - and perhaps was justified in the past by the rather poor offerings of a few (but by no means all) Theatre organists - some tracks that I've heard on "The Organist entertains" say 10 years ago were pretty poor rhythmically.  (NB not all church organists' are perfect either - I've heard a few where the cringe factor has been 11 on a scale of 1-10!!!).  Many church musicians of the older generations dismiss theatre organ (and Hammonds, etc) as "those Jazz things".

The antipathy often works both ways as well -  a good many TPO fans see no merit in other forms of pipe organ.

Thankfully, some of the barriers are coming down - and some of us who have an interest in both styles of organ are trying to build bridges.  I was very encouraged earlier this year when the Cinema Organ Society, who were hoasting an event at Saltaire on the same weekend as the Bradford Organists' association's centenary recital with Carlo Curly offered their members an option of dancing to the Wurlitzer at Saltaire or attending our recital (we offered them a block booking discount).  A significant number took up the offer.  I'm also looking at ways in which the BOA & COS North might be able to work together - at the very least publicizing each others events.  I'm also pleased to see that David has included a theatre organ section on this forum (although why linked with fairground organs, which are a different kettle of fish entierly IMHO - the whole area of mechanical organs is yet another area and form of organ music.

It's interesting that some of the Theatre Organ "greats" of the past had a solid classical organ training, and could turn their hand to any style of music and instrument.  Sadly, very few players these days seem to even want to bridge the divide, let alone put in the work needed to understand the different styles of pipe organ that are out there.

Every Blessing

Tony
(who plays theatre organ whenever the opportunity arises - but not as often as I would like!)

Barrie Davis

Hi

Im a Classical Organist and wish at times I had the ability to play a Cinema Organ, I never decry Cinema Organists, in fact admire them.

Barrie

barniclecompton

Also the discription "instruments of great jollity"- maybe its just myself, but that seems to me abit of micky taking. They arent jolly all the time, they are serious instruments, they can cover ALOT of things.
Part of it might be that, straight classical instruments just cant do what a theatre organ can, where as a theatre organ can do the classical str8 stuff too as well as being used as an accompinamental instrument for many types of styles, being used as an orchestra (there are many which sound VERY like an orchestra). They pretty much cover everything, given the right spec. Alot of theatre organists also hold church positions too, and many are classically trained as said by Tony. Ive heard alot of theatre organists playing classical music with no training better than most classical organists.

revtonynewnham

Hi

Whilst theatre organs can make a credible sound in classical repertoire - especially with some lateral thinking in registration (e.g. using 4ft strings to substitute for the lack of mixtures, or flute + string for a different diapason sound), the result is never going to be "authentic".  In the same way, most church/classical organs can play theatre organ "repertoire" effectively (again with some lateral thinking in terms of registration) but will not sound totally authentic - even if the trems are somewhere near right for TPO style (Comptons, Hill, Norman & Beard and at least one Spurden-Rutt organ that I've played do have trems on the theatrical side, rather than the very gentle style of other builders).  I've even played the arrangement of "Autumn Leaves" from "The Organist Entertains" music book on the 1m 5 stop organ in my church - and it comes off surprisingly well.

With organs, it's horses for courses - the Theatre organ evolved from the "Town Hall" type of "orchestral" organ to suit the type of repertoire that it was needed to lay firstly in accompanying silent film and as part of te Cine-Variety shows of the era.  Later, some instruments were designed more for the short interludes between films.  Church organs developed to provide accompaniment to choirs and/or to lead large congregations in hymn singing.  Concert organs originally developed as orchestral substitutes.  These are all valid styles of organ, ideally suited to the repertoire for which they were designed, but all capable, to some degree, of playing other styles of music in an entertaining fashion, but not necessarily authentically.

The development of the Theatre Organ is a fascinating area - one that I hope at some future time to have time and resources to research.  The pre-unit-organ theatre instruments are often said to be no more than church organs installed in a theatre, but looking at the stop lists and builder's literature, that's not actually the case - like most organs, they were designed for the job.  In the UK, HNB built several organs for early cinemas before developing the Christie range of unit organs - the transitional instrument being the Regal, Marble Arch job IMHO.  Other firms - including small local builders, provided organs for cinemas before the "big 3" really got going and dominated the market.

All very interesting.  Incidentally, at Saltaire yesterday one of the items I played was "In a Monastery Garden" - a theatre organ standard.  I played it on the Mustel Harmonium/Celeste - and using the 2 beating stops in the treble (Celeste & Musette) for some passages, coupled to the celeste was extremely effective.  That Harmonium has no tremulant at all - but the piece still worked musically.

Another interesting type of pipe organ (and electronic reproduction) are the handful of dual-purpose organs - Guildhall, Southampton (Compton), The Dome, Brighton (HNB/Christie) and a Spurden-Rutt in East London - and, to an extent, the aforementioned Regal, Marble Arch organ.  I also know of a couple of home-built dual-purpose electronics. 

The bottom line is that, in the main, in concert the audience wants to hear a range of music, played well - and with some knowledge on the part of the performer of the authentic style that the composer had in mind.  The art of the organist is to take the resources of whatever instrument (s)he is playing and get as close as possible to the composer's/arrangers intentions whilst still allowing the music to communicate.

Every Blessing

Tony

barniclecompton

QuoteWhilst theatre organs can make a credible sound in classical repertoire - especially with some lateral thinking in registration (e.g. using 4ft strings to substitute for the lack of mixtures, or flute + string for a different diapason sound), the result is never going to be "authentic" 
It depends on the size of the instrument and the specification it has. There are many theatre organs which have ended up in churches over the years.

Barrie Davis

I was organist at Quinton Parish Church which had a 3 manual Compton Cinema Organ, when the church was reordered it was bought by some enthusiasts from Somerset and that was the last I heard of it. If you used it with caution it was fine for the litturgy and many a Bride has gone out to the ringing tubular bells!!!

barniclecompton

Quote from: Barrie Davis on September 20, 2010, 12:03:51 AM
I was organist at Quinton Parish Church which had a 3 manual Compton Cinema Organ, when the church was reordered it was bought by some enthusiasts from Somerset and that was the last I heard of it. If you used it with caution it was fine for the litturgy and many a Bride has gone out to the ringing tubular bells!!!
If im correct in thinking that came from the Rink/Gaumont Smethwick, and it was cut down specification wise when it went into the church.

revtonynewnham

Quote from: Barrie Davis on September 20, 2010, 12:03:51 AM
I was organist at Quinton Parish Church which had a 3 manual Compton Cinema Organ, when the church was reordered it was bought by some enthusiasts from Somerset and that was the last I heard of it. If you used it with caution it was fine for the litturgy and many a Bride has gone out to the ringing tubular bells!!!

Hi

Regardless of size, a typical theatre organ is not going to be authentic for much of the classical repertoire - the use of extension and the vastly different voicing - especially when compared to baroque or early English organs sees to that!  It doesn't mean that the result won't be musical and entertaining.  Many theatre organs that were moved to churches (and some other venues, e.g. the Rye Wurlitzer) had some or all of the traps and percussions removed (Rye, when installed, only had the Cathedral Chimes, and only the chests for the Flute, Diapason and Trumpet were overhauled).

I'm not saying that they can't do the job - but it does require some thought in registration, etc.  Before we moved to Essex in 1993 I regularly played the Rye Wurlitzer for the school's Carol Concert, using it with choirs, the school orchestra and wind band as required - along with a solo spot.

I would rather play a well designed church organ for most church services, and a theatre organ for lighter music (although that said, a TPO and some of the typical sounds can be effective in some of the Sankey & Moody style hymns, and a few of the more reflective "contemporary" worship songs - and the drums & cymbals can - if you're brave enough - be used for things like "Onward Christian Soldiers".

Every Blessing

Tony

barniclecompton

ABC Plymouth and Dudley Savage comes to mind!

barniclecompton

http://www.perfectpartners.me.uk/images/mp3player.htm
The last track (Crimond/St Ethelwald) is a good example. Comptons were good dual purpose instruments.


barniclecompton

Also, the numbers of classical organists who go to blackpool tower to play the organ (the organ experience package) and then play HYMNS!! then whinge about it!! lol