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Avoiding closing churches, world war and total annihilation.

Started by David Pinnegar, December 28, 2015, 07:45:09 AM

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David Pinnegar

No doubt readers will think me mad for bringing faith to the top of topics on an organ forum. But to atheists and believers alike who love organs and the music of the instrument, our instruments depend on their hosting venues, the overwhelming majority of which are churches. And our churches are in decay, dying, and are under attack as, in the circumstances, they should be. Those circumstances are that the religions, including Christianity, are increasing divides between people and not bringing them together in the nature of the worship of whatever, personified or unpersonified, we might recognise as The Creator which through whatever mechanism brings things and people together to create.

Without examining why our organ venues are moldering in support for them, we simply won't have organs. It's a crisis for the instrument.

In another article today, The Times, Philip Collins who admittedly doesn't look a very nice piece of work attacks the Church. I don't agree with his limited perspective as both he and Hawkins, who he quotes, blindly misses the obvious - that all matter, and us, have something that connects it which causes things more useful than themselves to result from their union or cooperation. This model, that Jesus taught, has a great deal to give in people's lives so in my view there is future in the Church and our organs need not be under threat.

But the Church has lost sight of this in preaching a creed of superiority and separateness, rather than holistic understanding and cooperation.

So Philip Collins has a point in writing:
QuoteThank heavens we're all losing our religion . . .

Some of his cynicism he says relates to realising that the sherry his grandmother bought at the Coop one day became on the next day transformed into the blood of Christ. This truly is a misunderstanding of the Cult of Bacchus, and a failure for the symbolism of the Eucharist to bring its true meaning to light. It's for that reason that above I've outlined an idea of a symbolic supper at Evensong, in an effort to bring the appropriate depth of meaning to better light.

In secularisation he looks forward to
Quotea move towards progress and rationality and away from superstition and vain cosmological hope

In that I can agree. The tragedy of wasting the usefulness of lives in this life in expectation of heaven in the next, is not at all the sentiment or meaning from The Lord's Prayer which invokes the mindset to create paradise here on this earth now. It's not at all unchristian for the Church to look at its God, the Creator, in that sense and perspective, and the Church could so easily seize its moment and the initiative, and win to itself so much support.

Collins refers to the current Church as the new Pharisees:
QuoteJoining a (political) party and going to church are becoming sect activities for Pharisees, the original meaning of which is "those who set themselves aside from everyone"

In my view I think Jesus himself would compare the religion created in His name and resulting as now likewise.

I was so grateful for the stimulus yesterday to look again at Szekely's sources, through which I found another heretic, who's work I cannot understand but whose conclusions echo the sentiments of so many who turn away from the Jesus Cult as the Church now so much more promotes than in my youth, in terms of hocus pocus.
The 'Jesus of history' is looking very different from 'the Christ of faith' - the distinction made by 20th century theologians. My own view, which perhaps more are sharing now, is that it is inappropriate and even idolatrous to concentrate so much on the person of Jesus. He was a heroic figure, who came at one of the turning-points of western culture, and he helped to make the turn. But he was only part of an organisation that was ready to make the change. Grown-up people need to look beyond a human cult figure, to that which is higher than human. I think we are moving away from the language of all the traditional religions, into a language that expresses better our sense of what we call 'God'.

It's that figure of Jesus as an idol that he has become to so many against which in my view so many people turn their backs.

In another place Thiering concludes
Jesus was not a divine figure, not a Son of God.* He was a noble reformer, standing out against oppressive and destructive religion in his own day. He was a part only of a great institution that preceded him and followed him. The choices he made, within his own circumstances, were those that the finest of human beings make, responding to that within us that we have always thought of as divine.

She concludes in commentary on the subject of the Gospel of Mary
QuoteIt seems to me - to offer what is simply my opinion - that we have moved beyond the necessity for human-centred cults. It may be the effect of this newly recognised history that we find such language spiritually limiting. It is all part of a rich past, but we stand on the brink of a future that has to take far more into account. We haven't got there yet - perhaps we never will - but, as human beings always do, we can find a greater freedom by not being bound excessively by the past.

In recognition that we have a crisis, in common with others, we need to share with others to seek that upon which we can all agree and find understanding and meaning. The Church has the most wonderful opportunity to do so, and to lead in bringing peace to this world.

Best wishes

David P

*I quote italics above because the statement really depends upon definition, and it's as a result of different definitions that people argue. The clue to the statement is Jesus' own answer as to who were his mother and his brothers . . .

Paul Duffy

David, I take back what I said the other day about you achieving a higher level of consciousness. Your recent posts have shown you to be an atheist. Of course, you are entitled to this viewpoint as we live in a free society. But I do find it odd that in your atheism you are on the one hand displaying some sort of mock-concern for the churches yet wholeheartedly joining in with the general open season on faith and religion on the other.

As a church organist and believer, I am disheartened every time I read your comments on these matters, not inspired. You are a complete atheist, and I wish you would have the honesty to admit that and write as an atheist instead. If you want to show the 'farcical nature' of religion, then be honest and do it properly. Don't hide behind this pretence of concern, because you know full well that any modernisation of church life to make it relevant would have to step beyond the walls of a stone building. The model you appear to be hankering for does not require organs and choirs.

QuoteThe tragedy of wasting the usefulness of lives in this life in expectation of heaven in the next...

QuoteAnd our churches are in decay, dying, and are under attack as, in the circumstances, they should be.

I can't figure you out. You appear to lament the decline of the churches but then state that they should be attacked. Again, this shows you to be an atheist, albeit a very confused one. You still haven't grasped it though, have you David? The real reason that people are leaving church is everything to do with image, apathy, embarrassment and celebrity culture and nothing to do with what the churches teach. People just use 'because of what the churches teach' as an excuse not to attend. The word 'Jesus cult' is classic atheistic language.

I thought you were somehow reaching a higher level of consciousness, but your latest post reveals you to be an atheist who enjoys posting links to the writings of other atheists. I find it personally distasteful that you are now resorting to attacking the persona of Jesus Christ and posting links to these Gnostic writers. Gnostics do not believe that Jesus died on the cross, or that he was the Son of God. It is atheism by another name. You post this Essene garbage in which 'Jesus' encourages His followers to shove the stalk of a gourd up their back passage and give themselves an enema. You bring Bacchus into it. Bacchus, whose initiates rended animals (and sometimes humans) alive as a sacrifice to their god and ran around with thyrsus wands cavorting and having sex. Are you really suggesting we return to those days?

David, I thought you were a spiritual person who was perhaps searching for something. But you are not. You are an atheist and I find your comments increasingly confusing, de-moralising and antagonistic.

I feel that you are correct in your assertion that you should not be bringing matters of faith to an organ forum, particularly as some of us are church organists, and one of us is an organist AND a reverend. We have enough ignorance to put up with in the outside world.

I shan't be posting on this forum again.

Best wishes,


David Pinnegar

Dear Paul

Thank you so much for your critical stimulus.

Your personal and withering attack is entirely justified and for that reason it seems appropriate to answer those assertions below.

I have a very strong belief in God. So did Einstein*, and much of Victorian debate was in the interpretation of religion in the light of physics and biology. For reasons of seeing meaning in interpretation of language, I don't see conflict between religion, science or rationalism.

In fact I believe that the conflicts that we experience in religion and between religions result from language and, if we take singular meanings, inadequacies of language to encompass all things. It's for this reason that Mediaevalists looked for five meanings in all texts and Hebrew itself has multiple meanings to each word. I have a friend in the south of France who is Jewish and shows me the way in which the meanings of words are linked by their numbers. Roman writers referred to the Hebrews as good Pythagoreans**. This related to the number system behind their language and why for instance when I see a commentary such as upon the 153 fish of John 11:21 I see someone who's making the right enquiries whether or not I choose to follow her conclusions, which may or may not be bizarre.

There are many matters on which we can share belief and in which we can have the certainty of faith - that
(a) there is a God
(b) that by "God" we mean "The Creator" by which all is created.
(c) Because that Creator created everything, including us, if we take "The Creator" as our model in life, then we too will create more and more harmoniously
(d) that in making all, "The Creator" is All Powerful, Invisible and Everywhere
(e) faith in the Creator is a way of life

Where we may differ is that I believe that
(i) The Creator may not be a person but is a process. That idea is supported by the language of the New Testament, in the structure of the Holy Trinity and in Jesus' response to "who are my mother and my brothers?". The language of son and daughter processes is used in computing.
(ii) The universe may have been created by a force within itself rather than outside itself.
(iii) The result of the process of matter and things and people coming together as a result of the work of the creator displays an intelligence. It's for the simple reason that stuff that doesn't work together is rather stupid, so of course anything that works together is more intelligent than the stupid stuff. That operates at every level.
(iv) The intelligence displayed by the interaction of everything in the universe, because we are limited to the human comprehension of our own intelligence, appears to us and behaves as a person, and behaves as a Father to us - but it's a good deal more, even more than that. Our personification of the Creator is limiting.
(v) Personally the way of life is a philosophy in which I can have faith because it works and is based on rationality.

With regard to the latter some apparent symbolic "Hand of God" presents itself into my life and when it does I metaphorically reciprocate with thanks. But I note these things and test the outcome to ensure their reality and to ensure not to be misled by the illusory.

For the reasons above we need to amass what we are told about the Creator and see if and how it matches up with the result that it produces. By their actions shall ye know them.

We see currently
(a) churches in decline
(b) people not appreciating that faith or church has any relevance to their lives
(c) loss of social fabric which could be vastly improved were the concept of The Creator to be returned to consciousness
(d) peoples in conflict with each other on account of which cult teacher they "believe" in
(e) people following "beliefs" which do not attempt to understand what the teacher was teaching but demand only blind faith in their chosen idol
(f) the human race in the position of capability of its own extinction by reason of its weapons, war and corrosive destruction
(g) the human race in the capability of destroying the earth which supports it. It's for this reason that I find the Szekely Gnostic texts*** of particular relevance and are worth reading for their beauty and wisdom. The creation of a False Sun given by the angel of Power is a very dangerous thing to do, as we are currently concerned with the actions of the governance of North Korea. ****

For all of these reasons were the Church to take on a wider and unblinkered position in the perspectives of the work of the Creator God, the legacy of the wisdom of Jesus Christ would neither be under attack nor considered irrelevant.

In the processing of analogue colour television signals, something known as a comb filter was applied to test the signal coming in to see if it matched up with the result expected. The fact that the introduction of colour to television was so successful was testimony to the process.

All therefore that we need to start doing is to measure up our beliefs and our texts as to whether the interpretations and meanings actually result in the action of creating, bringing together, harmony, working together, loving our neighbours. Where they don't then we need to put them on one side for later work when we understand them more.

Within the church it's so easy for us to accomplish this, inviting other people in and asking them to read from their texts where they and we know that they are saying the same thing.

Inviting people in to evangelise is more effective than going out to do so. We simply have to welcome.

Best wishes

David P


* Einstein famously said that Jehovah's only excuse for all the bad in the world was his non-existence, but he said that he had great respect for "The Old One". That's a belief in God, The Creator, by any definition, and a proper rejection of a name that becomes an idol, and against the ancient injunction against saying The Name. Einstein was a true believer in the One god.

** "Good Pythagoreans" My friend in the south of France shows me how for instance the square of the numbers associated with the Hebrew words for for instance "God" and "Children" when added together equate with the square of the number of the word for "children of god"

***The Szekely Essene version of the Book of Revelation which speaks to us so clearly only causes offense not for its content but because it's outside the realm of "acceptable". By what criteria? We have to ask whether what it says accords or not with the work of the Creator - and as it clearly shows us how currently the human race is not pursuing creation with our planet, then the text which identifies clearly our errant ways is more Divinely inspired than we, and we do well therefore to drink of its wisdom. What is wrong with the Gnostic texts? Only that the Council of Nicea convened by that very nice Roman Emperor who drowned his wives in boiling water told us that they were the work of the devil and shouldn't be read. Should we still be in fear of Constantine's punishment?

**** In just the same way as Einstein told his professors that there was no such thing as cold, only an absence of heat, and by analogy that there is no Devil, only an absence of understanding of Creation, and in just the same way as there is no Darkness but only an absence of light, we will achieve a more enlightened position when we stop demonising others, demonising other faiths and no faiths, and get on with the work of the Creator. In this, the work of the Church and of the other religions likewise, is only part way up the ladder.


"......we will achieve a more enlightened position when we stop demonising others, demonising other faiths and no faiths, and get on with the work of the Creator."

Yes, David. And this was Christ's example.
Best wishes,
Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

David Pinnegar

One day there were different people going to do the work of God.

They had to reach the city for a meeting.

One group of people arrived at the mainline station and bought their tickets and got on the train they expected to catch.

Another went to a minor station along the way. A bloke at the ticket machine took an extraordinarily long time and the queue behind him thought that they would miss their train. The bloke apologised saying that it was cheaper to buy his tickets splitting the journey into two, and it also cost more to use the main station as the destination.

The next man, in a hurry and distracted listening to the tedious man, pressed the wrong buttons and bought the wrong ticket, a single rather than a return.

Thinking that God had let him down, he was annoyed with himself asking why God had allowed him to buy the wrong ticket.

He arrived on the platform and found that the train was listed as going to the wrong station. Walking up and down the platform he paced in desperation asking why God had let him down, wondering if this really was the train to catch at all, perhaps thinking that he should wait for the right train and knew that in any event he had to find the guard on the train to change his ticket.

After a little while, the "wrong" train turned up.

It's then that as people of faith have to make that decision as to whether or not to work with the God that's apparently abandoned them, and get on the "wrong" train with the wrong ticket.

As the long 12 carriage train stopped at the station, exactly where the man was on the platform, the doors opened right in front of him. Those doors were the one of all 24 on the train where . . . the guard got out . . . and the man walked in.

Sitting down he told the guard he'd need his help to change his ticket because he'd got the wrong one. "No trouble" said the guard, who changed the ticket. "And don't worry - you've caught the right train - the signals are wrong on the other line so don't get out at the junction halfway up the line to get on the other train".

After that the journey was easy. The Hand of God* led the way.

Meanwhile the others who'd got what they thought was the right train didn't switch to the other line at the junction. They had to stand on what they clung onto as their "right train", squashed together like sardines in a can, uncomfortable, delayed, stifled and experiencing the antithesis of heaven.

All reached their destination.

The extent to which the majority of population have abandoned the church is because the signals have gone wrong.

It takes faith to abandon what's thought to be the right train from the main station. It takes faith to go to the small station and get the wrong train with the wrong ticket, and to walk straight into the carriage where the guard is.

An article in the weekend FT is worth reading "More than British" about assimilation of foreigners and in particular about how the writer's Jewish ancestors became and felt very British.**

QuoteDespite the common slights and professional setbacks, my grandparents never felt they were rejected by Britain in the way German Jews were rejected by their country after 1933. Perhaps this should be obvious. They were grateful for something that ought to be a given. But it meant everything to them.

I think about this often when I read about the difficulties experienced by European Muslims. To be sure, there was no Jewish equivalent of violent jihadism. But most Europeans with a Muslim background are not jihadis. They want to be accepted. Violence is all the more likely when they are not. My grandparents were fortunate. They found their place in a relatively decent society during frequently indecent times. One can only hope that, eventually, other children of immigrants will feel as lucky as they did.

Inviting those practicing other faiths in to share with us in our churches their texts with us also describing the work of God and to celebrate worship in understanding, harmony and peace with them is not unchristian. It's the work of the Daughters and Mothers and Sons of God as Jesus commanded us to be.

I'm apparently an Atheist. And I'm not frightened to get on the wrong train. In faith we can do so.

Best wishes

David P

* Incidentally, my Jewish friend to whom I've referred above in connexion with Pythagoreanism tells me that this is the true meaning of the title of Homer's epic, the Iliad - "The Hand of God".

** Ian Buruma is author of 'Their Promised Land: My Grandparents in Love and War' (published by Penguin Press in the US on January 19 and in the UK by Atlantic Books in March)

David Pinnegar

Being berated above for being Gnostic, and on account of the ferocity of attack relating to the work of Dr Barbara Thiering who by any manner of opinion must rank high in measure of erudition and scholarship I returned today to some of her work

She was radical, had courage, and had clearly observed the same processes of radicalisation of the Christian faith on which I have commented,2035.msg9294/ being known for
Quotedeconstructing many of the fundamentalist theologies most Cold-War Christians had been taught
Most certainly she did not put God in the bin but promoted anti-fundamentalist religion. In these days when we see fundamentalism elsewhere but not in ourselves, we need more voices such as hers and more of her more universal theology.

She comments
What was basically an organisational necessity was clothed in the gnostic gospels with the mystical language that gnostics delighted in, illustrating their belief that what was earthly was at the same time heavenly. It is the mystical language that has survived, lending itself to a cult of Mary Magdalene that continues the cult of Mary the Mother.

It seems to me - to offer what is simply my opinion - that we have moved beyond the necessity for human-centred cults. It may be the effect of this newly recognised history that we find such language spiritually limiting. It is all part of a rich past, but we stand on the brink of a future that has to take far more into account. We haven't got there yet - perhaps we never will - but, as human beings always do, we can find a greater freedom by not being bound excessively by the past.

My own perspective comes from an immersion in the 18th century. This was at the end of the period of the Renaissance without which humankind would not have advanced so much in the last millennium. But much of the 18th century was dumped by radicalists in the 19th century who needed to present a simpler dumbed down view to more uneducated people coming into the work of the Industrial Revolution and associated prosperity.

The Moravians had set up communities not unlike those described by Thiering at Qumran with rather strict separation of the sexes and the early removal of children to Moravian headquarters for education. Their school at Fulneck in Yorkshire flourished and at the age of 7 or so the children were sent off to Niesky in Saxony. The land was given to them by Count Zinzendorf.

Europe at this time had major problems, each village and valley and town alternately ruled by Protestants, Calvinists, Anabaptists and Calvinists. If you said the wrong thing in the wrong place you'd get your head cut off, not very unlike the dangers of identifying with Shiite or Sunni Islam now.

The sort of Freemasonry espoused by Pike referred to above is a very different animal to that of the 18th century, and might even have been a result of radicalisation and fundamentalism in the Christian domain in the 19th century itself.

It was thanks to 18th century belief in the Great Architect, that dissolved the silly differences between the brands of Christianity.

Increasingly I find reference to the worship of Bacchus or Dionysus nowadays in derogatory terms but as a proto-Christ he was central to the 18th century views, the Dionysiac Artificers having been sent by the King of Tyre (King Hiram) to assist in the building of Solomon's temple.

The misunderstandings about Bacchus arise through ignorance and the sort of response one might expect from the Sun newspaper about the word that will no doubt be in your mind as following the word "Bacchanalian". We live in a sexualised material world of frustrating animal consciousness nowadays.

It is that consciousness that Christianity in its Mystery has been intended to raise, but in its fundamentalised manifestation does not.

It's very apparent from in relation to the Eleusian and Bacchic mysteries that the Renaissance in which such learning was encouraged was very much in a different consciousness about consciousness in the days in which we live.

Whilst Dante is revered, perhaps many might sling grenades on which "heresy" had been written before pulling out the pin and hurling it at his inspiration
QuoteThe crux of the Eleusinian argument was that man is neither better nor wiser after death than during life. If he does not rise above ignorance during his sojourn here, man goes at death into eternity to wander about forever, making the same mistakes which he made here. If he does not outgrow the desire for material possessions here, he will carry it with him into the invisible world, where, because he can never gratify the desire, he will continue in endless agony. Dante's Inferno is symbolically descriptive of the sufferings of those who never freed their spiritual natures from the cravings, habits, viewpoints, and limitations of their Plutonic personalities.

The understanding of Bacchus and Dionysus is particularly different to that which is given by the ignorance of the modern age:
QuoteMan is a composite creature, his lower nature consisting of the fragments of the Titans and his higher nature the sacred, immortal flesh (life) of Bacchus. Therefore man is capable of either a Titanic (irrational) or a Bacchic (rational) existence.

In teaching about wine, the only thing for which he is famous now, it's forgotten that he was responsible for the teaching of growing of grapes - because you can't have wine if you haven't grown the grapes. He was the teacher of agriculture and fertility. So you would invoke him to preside over the blessing of a wedding. But this was not merely fertility in the material world - it was fertility in the mental world too.

This was the fertility of which we understand when Adam and Eve's paradise falls away from them and they have to grow their crops of the mind among the thorns and thistles in that realm.

Those thorns and thistles are why perhaps this thread causes angst in some in its reading.

Rather interestingly
QuoteBacchus is the all-inclusive idea of the Titanic sphere and the Titans--or gods of the fragments--the active agencies by means of which universal substance is fashioned into the pattern of this idea. The Bacchic state signifies the unity of the rational soul in a state of self-knowledge, and the Titanic state the diversity of the rational soul which, being scattered throughout creation, loses the consciousness of its own essential one-ness. The mirror into which Bacchus gazes and which is the cause of his fall is the great sea of illusion--the lower world fashioned by the Titans. Bacchus (the mundane rational soul), seeing his image before him, accepts the image as a likeness of himself and ensouls the likeness; that is, the rational idea ensouls its reflection--the irrational universe. By ensouling the irrational image it implants in it the urge to become like its source, the rational image.

Understaning Bacchus was a study in the mirror.

It might surprise radicalised Christians of today that this is part of our story too.

"Man made in the image of God" . . . . and whether we see God in the image of Man.

"We see through a glass darkly - but then face to face". Certainly Paul with his Roman origins would have been familiar with the Mysteries.

Szekerly, referred to above, has that passage written not by Paul but said by Jesus himself according to John. Whether one likes to believe it or not, Thiering has John written by Jesus Himself. It doesn't really matter.

The point is that we're simply looking at different reflections of the same Old One, to use Einstein's term for the one faith in the one God the Creator.

In contrast to the Titanic state in which we live
QuoteThe Titanic state signifies the diversity of the rational soul which, being scattered throughout creation, loses the consciousness of its own essential one-ness.

we need to re-find that one-ness in order . . . please excuse the pun, for our civilisation to avoid the fate of

the giant iceberg of religions that otherwise will split humanity apart and cause such loss of life.

QuoteThe Bacchic state signifies the unity of the rational soul in a state of self-knowledge

Perhaps it's time to restore Bacchus in our understanding.

The world is a village. No village is an island. It's now time to talk to our neighbours and say "Hey! Let's share our visions of the Creator. Let's do the work of the Creator". This is humanity in the image of God. This is Christianity in the doing of the work of the Father.

In doing so, the Churches will sing not as an organ with dying wind able to support only one rank, but with sound as inspirational as full chorus can bring.

Best wishes

David P

David Pinnegar

The thrust of religion in its "Jesus loves me" simplicity is no more than a superstition and as debased as a Hope Jones organ.

For nearly 20,000 British men who died 1st July 1916 in the Battle of the Somme the Hope of the God who loves you, the big Teddy Bear in the sky with which for at least thirty years has led the wave of Evangelical Christianity, failed to do it for them that day.

The thrust of radicalised fundamentalism that only sees the texts in literal glory is wrong and is seen to be wrong by people of common sense who have turned their backs on the church and see no relevance of God in their lives.

The Hope Jones instrument might be fun to dance to, happy and clappy, but as organists we know there is something more, and greater.

The Fairground instrument, the "unit orchestra", was no better, exciting at a funfair, but with the music on punched "books" operating the keys, mindlessly played the same tunes and couldn't adapt.

The reading of the same texts in our churches is leading the Church to go the same way as these organs, preserved as matters of curiosity in remembrance of times past.

The "Doodle" today is rather relevant inspired by a little known 20th century artist*.

Our religions each take a colour such as green**

and say that the other colours

are not allowed and that black

is positively evil.

If only limited colours are allowed then understanding of the idea is made rather uncertain and people will argue what it's all about. And yet even when we have all the colours,

we'll probably still argue what it's all about unless we happen to understand the name "Google".

He who searches finds.

The Creator, which we call "God", is not much different.

We have to measure up the meanings we understand of our texts and see if they measure up to creating and as to whether their actions spell out the work of The Creator.

Jesus said that it was not necessary to offer live sacrifices in the Temple to appease God. For goodness sake, to do so is only superstition! Does the killing of an animal on an altar have any relevance to the process of creating, the construction of matter, the PLUS between 1+1 which then enables 2 to be created?

Should we therefore separate ourselves from other faiths each leading people to the idea of creating because Jesus was killed on a cross? How can the killing of a Son of The Creator on a cross have any relevance to our process of creating? How can the killing of the Son of the Creator have any relevance to our own actions of not having created, having taken wrong steps, trespasses?

If there is any understanding of these things it is not in the mode of "Jesus loves you. Jesus loves you so much that he died to save you from your sins".

The only way in which the Son of the Creator saves us from our sins is in teaching us the way of creation, in which wrong steps are irrelevant, or actually through forgiveness and subsequent usage in the process of creating provide variety that enhances creation.

The truth arises from the substance of what Jesus and other teachers taught, and not in worship of our teacher.

May our churches and our organs progress beyond the spirit of Hope Jones.

Best wishes

David P


** The only reason for saying that only green ink is allowed is in order for men to sell more green ink.

David Pinnegar

We are not very far from kristallnacht upon seeing the newspapers this morning reporting that asylum seekers have been housed in places with red front doors.

This is most certainly all darkness from krist and so far from the teachings of Jesus Son of Man that if the Church can adopt Christianity in the broadest worship of the Creator God it espouses it will earn for itself kudos in the initiative to bring relevance to all, peace and harmony.

Indeed, we need a force of Christianity relevant to all in order to avoid the consequences of another Kristallnacht.

We've seen in this thread,2037.msg9338.html#msg9338 a conspiracy to divide the world in disharmony, profiting out of selling blue ink

to some and telling others that "truth" is only the red and yellow ink

and to others only the green ink in short supply

whilst to others the profit of selling an absence of light

entirely at all.

The only way of overcoming the Pikist forces to which reference has been made is to put all the colours, all the light, together in the darkness so that the real picture

is revealed.

So if we are to believe this thread the dangerous Gnostics with only a tiny green view of the picture

are a terrible threat to those who believe the blue picture of the world

to be the whole "truth".

The Gnostics in the opinion expressed above might dare to believe that Jesus, biological supernatural son of the person of God, did not die on the cross but continued to live out his days days somewhere else.

Really might Christianity lose or gain by finding language and meaning in which both scenarios were or are true?

The sellers of ink who want to divide the world in the selling of coloured paint with which to mark the doors of asylum seekers will promote that to have mentioned such a thing might even be the matter of the ultimate darkness

clearly blatant nihilism and Atheism at its most offensive.

Physicists have had to grapple for two centuries with the incompatibilities of light being both particles and waves being true at the same time. Having done so has demonstrated the value of such mental leaping as the computer you're using with which to read this would not work without such understanding having been gained. But it turns out that the quanta of the particles wasn't a property of the light at all but instead merely of the electronic energy levels of the matter with which the light interacts.

Christianity can cope with, benefit, flourish and bring benefit to humanity by doing the same, finding the truths between and beyond the incompatibilities. The religions argue merely about whether the 4ft Principal, the 2ft Fifteenth or the Twelfth is the Fundamental of the organ, and whether the tickling Septieme should not be allowed.

Can the Church survive if Jesus Son of God died on the cross and if Jesus Son of God did not die on the cross are both true? If both are true, what definitions about words permit both truths? And what is the teaching that comes through that is valid in either or both circumstance?

Best wishes

David P

PS is the very reason why we ourselves as Christians have the duty to demonstrate getting beyond love of our teacher and instead understand what he was saying. The Prophet would have told the boy that cutting off his hand could not help him to do the work of the Creator which requires our minds, hearts and hands to bring into effect.

Paul Duffy

David, I wish to apologise for my fundamentalist rant. You had touched a nerve. It was indeed a Titanic response, but there is a reason for such a harsh reply. Since I posted it I fully intended to lurk occasionally on this forum. However, what you have said in subsequent days has struck a chord. Allow me to explain.

QuoteBeing berated above for being Gnostic

The sort of Freemasonry espoused by Pike referred to above is a very different animal to that of the 18th century, and might even have been a result of radicalisation and fundamentalism in the Christian domain in the 19th century itself.

It was thanks to 18th century belief in the Great Architect, that dissolved the silly differences between the brands of Christianity.

As I have stated in previous posts, I have been experiencing some sort of 'spiritual awakening' these past few years. I am in little doubt that it is 'divinely motivated', but the experience has pointed very firmly towards Gnosticism and Freemasonry. I have been pushing against this for a long time because I simply did not wish to accept it. For a start, believing or dabbling in Freemasonry will get me excommunicated from my Church and Faith. However, I cannot ignore Gnosticism and Freemasonry any longer. They contain sacred truths, and the awakening is returning me to them time and again, together with the Rose Cross, The Holy Grail and The Black Madonna amongst other things. I don't know what it all means, but I will have to re-think EVERYTHING I believe in. This is why your comments on Gnosticism touched a nerve.

But it was this comment which compelled me to reply, even though I did say I would never post here again:

QuoteIncreasingly I find reference to the worship of Bacchus or Dionysus nowadays in derogatory terms but as a proto-Christ he was central to the 18th century views, the Dionysiac Artificers having been sent by the King of Tyre (King Hiram) to assist in the building of Solomon's temple.

Perhaps it's time to restore Bacchus in our understanding.

The awakening has pointed VERY STRONGLY to Bacchus, via an astonishing experience which I cannot go into in an open forum. I didn't want Bacchus to disturb my beliefs. I didn't want the upheaval. I wanted the Bacchus episode to go away because it did not fit with my beliefs. But this is what Bacchus does. He turns everything upside down. Here am I, a mainstream Catholic, having to accept the very real possibility that I was 'spiritually initiated' into the Bacchic/Dionysian mysteries. That is why I reacted in the manner I did. I didn't want to accept it because it sounds insane and it doesn't reflect my beliefs.

I apologise once again. Keep going David, you are on to something.

Best wishes,

David Pinnegar

Dear Paul

You're most welcome and forgiven, not that you need to be. Sometimes in natural healing a very strong reaction is experienced and expected. (In that understanding you'll now enjoy more Szekely's "Gospel of Peace" however repugnant its first reading might be.) Indeed I owe you a lot, because without stimulation ideas are stagnant and the inspiration you caused in my having to answer was most helpful to say the least. Indeed I would not have stumbled upon Barbara Thiering's work without your having guided me to look more at Szekely.

I have only just got my hands on the "Jesus the Man" book by Thiering. Her knowledge and understanding of ancient Greek is not to be discounted and there are one or two things that are starting to suggest to me that she might not have been the first to have stumbled upon the code and coded information about which she writes. The Elizabethans were bonkers about encoding secret things, much of which remains that way, Sir Francis Bacon was central to it all . . . and one might ask what inspiration there had been to all of this, although that is in itself a red herring.

Thiering talks about the Community at Qumran, and a replication of the Community at Jerusalem . . . and at Rome.

What we see persisting at the Vatican is a community not very different to that of 2000 years ago.

We all know that the Second Coming was expected in around 80AD when the Messiah was expected to return to over throw the Romans . . . so the reality is that we've heard echoes before of which Theiring identifies and illucidated in her research. There was a lot of politics around. Was Palm Sunday a purely peaceful event? Or was it the sort of "peaceful" event that Neru might have led in India?

That's the human story . . . and this doesn't at all take away from the story in the spiritual dimension.

Theiring puts other colours on the meaning of being reborn - reborn within the community. This is what many monks and nuns have experienced in all such communities for two millennia.

The "miracle" of turning water into wine works in both dimensions. On the one hand it may be a description of what happened at an actual event, and I might well have written here on the forum about that event in the physical world, but in her book Thiering suggests that the turning of water into wine is a spiritual reference to having been baptised with water and then in maturity coming to the table of the sacred feast, of bread and being baptised into wine - within the Community.

It's odd, to say the least, that in my suggestion for a meaningful evensong above in the course of suggesting a reinvigorated Church Service,2037.msg9339.html#msg9339 I move in that direction - and someone told me that there are some churches which do adopt the idea of the sacred meal or symbolic feast.

But this is a red herring also. I mentioned a hunch that Thiering might not have been the first to have stumbled upon the coded documentation about the Qumran community. The Moravian community at Fulneck in Yorkshire seems to have been a striking echo of the spirit of the Essene arrangements, with separated quarters for men and for women and for the education of their children, and focus on the study of Greek and the languages.*

More research might be useful relating to Christian Ignatius Latrobe. The Latrobe motto was interesting - Qui La Cerca La Troba - he who searches finds, in the old French, the Langue D'Oc. The family may well have descended from the Troubadours, who had travelled, searched, found, and related their epics. London in the 1780s and 1790s was an extremely vibrant and erudite place in the shadow of Samuel Johnson, and Dr Burney, the musicologist who was one of the last people to have been able to travel Europe with a common language . . . Latin.

I hope that perhaps there is inspiration in this thread for other people on the path to join in. It's not necessarily the destination that's important but the path, the process, by which one finds it.

Just as there is commonality between the normal understanding of turning water into wine and the very special nature of us as common water also being turned into the best of wine (Bacchus again) as a result of our encounter with the wisdom of Jesus, with luck more people might see the value and relevance and enrichment of spirit which rewards way beyond the literal "acceptable" readings of the texts.

It's more than this, as when we find the meanings that actually accord within and between all the religions, we have the foundation for peace in the world.

The matters of which I'm writing are not unknown and nor of my invention: I was introduced to them by reason of an encounter with a building of a style and construction known by some as "rebirth architecture".

In relation to the fears of disapproval about which one might worry by contemplation of the ideas here, none can deny the circumstances outlined in the posts above, all matters which we as believers in the power of Creation now have to be concerned.

An example is the gift of the Angel of Life
QuoteAnd gave to man the gift of Creation.
And man created a sickle of iron in the shape of a serpent,
And the harvest he reaped was of hunger and death.

Whether that iron is that of weaponry which destroys life, or abuses of DNA in the shape of a serpent responsible for life, by what we do now, all of us, of every creed and faith and religion or none, we have the opportunity to bring forward either destruction or eternity and have the duty to work to the latter rather than sleepwalk into the former.

Best wishes

David P

* The Unitas Fratrum -
QuoteThey lived in a choir system where community members were organised as single men's choir, single women's choir, widows' choir, boys and girls choirs. they lived in choir houses each with their elder and group meetings to arrange housekeeping, craft production, education and worship. The choir system created spheres of influence for women and also facilitated arranged marriages.

There was a strong ethos of egalitarianism, and education was available to males and females. The Herrnhut school taught the Bible languages Latin, Greek, and Hebrew as well as German, French and English, history and geography. This meant that a high standard of schooling was available to children of both sexes from all social backgrounds, and both men and women engaged in translations and hymn writing.

David Pinnegar

In following through from replying above, anyone might get lost in Reformation history. The point above is that Zinzendorf and the Moravians may well have discovered before what Thiering has looked at again. The extent to which the 18th century demonstrated expertise in code writing, and no doubt inspired by code breaking, was exemplified by Wesley writing in code.

The details really don't matter. It's not the destination that's important but the process, and seeking destinations can land one up in all sorts of false destinations and down rabbit holes.

The only thing that matters is that test of "Does this meaning or understanding help to create and to create holistically?", in other words whether it forms part of larger creation.

The ancients were happy to define a god. That definition is within the understanding of something. When we look in a mirror it's difficult to decide which side of the glass we are on and which the other is on. So one can look at the possibility that defining the Creator as God leads to its understanding.

In 13BC Emperor Augustus defined Peace as a Goddess. This may be part of the story that became the bible story, it being clear from Thiering that what was happening in Rome was part of what was going on in Qumran. Perhaps the Pietists, knew a thing or two, Moravians and Quakers. Even the Rosicrucians. Even those who the coloured ink makers tell us to demonise.

It's all caused differences and arguments all before and one has to avoid the destinations provided by the shortages of other colours of inks.

The Tower of Babel is the most important parable of all. It's the one that if we're not careful we all climb and then fall down. The story is that everything originated as one . . . and then was split apart and caused us to argue. So we have to resist the temptations to find differences, and to argue.

This is the power as Christians loving our neighbours inviting in others in worship of the Creator and sharing understandings of our texts.

There are interpretations and understandings in which all texts are right and only our interpretations which don't match Creation are wrong.

In such can those who want to be be reborn. In commonsense the Churches can ring with the sound of tongues afire that all can understand and with enthusiasm drunken.

Best wishes

David P

Paul Duffy

Thank you David for your kindly reply.

QuoteIn 13BC Emperor Augustus defined Peace as a Goddess

This brings me back to the Black Madonna I mentioned in an earlier post. People think that it is a statue of the Virgin Mary holding Jesus, and that it is black because of candle smoke. Well, one could take it that way, and certainly it is easier to explain it like that rather than the controversial truth behind it.

The Black Madonna is deliberately coloured black, and because of this it is actually a statue of The Goddess (Kali, Isis, Athena etc.) giving spiritual re-birth to an initiate. (Gnostics go even further, and suggest it is a statue of Mary Magdalene carrying Jesus's child.) My weird experiences over the past two years linked the book 'The Secret Life of Bees' with the Black Madonna and a chap called St Bernard of Clairvaulx. It was almost like wheels within wheels. Bernard instituted worship of the Black Madonna and he is a patron saint of beekeepers; and the Secret Life of Bees centres around a Black Madonna statue. Bernard haunts all my steps! You mentioned the Dionysian Architects. Many months ago I discovered that Bernard had worked with them to build the Templar-Cistercian abbeys. I had buried all this stuff and forgotten about it. But it seems that Bernard wants to be noticed! Over the Christmas period, he appeared in a picture in the background during a scene in the BBC's 'Dickensian' programme. And now you have drawn my attention to him once again.

QuoteEven the Rosicrucians

I have learned much from the beliefs of these people. Before I ever knew anything about them I had a dream in which three rose crosses were borne horizontally in procession in some cathedral or religious building. I later learned that this concerns spiritual healing. I now know that the cross is pre-Christian. Indeed, the early Christians used a five pointed star as an emblem, not a cross. The rose cross symbolises the soul 'crucified' on the body. This is a pre-Christian concept.

There are many more things I could share with you. To be honest David, you are the only person I can talk to about these secret and sacred things. Other people are likely to demonise me or label me insane. What I have come to understand, is that God/the Great Architect/ the Universe, does not give out orders. He/It does not interfere with free will. Instead, He/It encourages us to write our own stories, to create our own Heaven. He does alter the minds of certain people, but that is so they can step out of the collective unconscious and see how everything is connected within the Universe. He makes some people into Prophets, and there are some really good ones. But the things they wrote are their own conclusions. God didn't dictate anything to them. Isaiah is a particularly intelligent and clever prophet, but my personal favourite is our very own William Blake. People labelled him insane in his day, as they are wont to do, but in my opinion Blake was indeed touched by God and he understood that God is above morality. Blake is my hero really. It's sad that people only seem to remember him for one thing, because he was multi-talented and could do illuminations, etchings, engravings and poetry as well. He had a great sense of humour which comes through in his poems, though the elite at the time often baulked at this because they expected all poems to fit a certain mould.

"Men are admitted into Heaven not because they have curbed and governd their Passions or have No Passions but because they have Cultivated their Understandings. The Treasures of Heaven are not Negations of Passion but Realities of Intellect from which All the Passions Emanate Uncurbed in their Eternal Glory."

"I must Create a System, or be enslav'd by another Man's. I will not Reason & Compare; my business is to Create."

How can such a man be labelled insane by his contemporaries? Surely they are the ones who are mad, including Chesterton, whose biography of Blake is a travesty.

Best wishes,

David Pinnegar

Dear Paul

Thank you so much for sharing these things. I hope that you won't live in fear and that no-one will and that others will come forward and contribute in this thread.

The idea is simply a suggestion, above, of how in the Church we can be wider, do the work of the Creator, lose nothing and gain everything.

If we look for the interpretations and meanings in all sorts of ways then we can find ways in which the texts fit.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the second pyramid was a burial chamber. But having been there, and having accidently come across "rebirth architecture", one can understand perhaps how one might have gone into the chamber, through a bent passage, been left there for three days, descended into hell, thinking that one would die there physically, or actually in sensory deprivation come to think that one had died, and made a pact to do things better if ever one came out. It was the ancient equivalent of the NDE. One came out of the chamber, through the bent passage, and emerged from the womb of the earth, the womb of the building, reborn and into a new life.

In this new life, having realised our mortality and come face to face with it, the material world is of less significance.

Our destination as humans is that of being returned to whence we came. Bones in the ground. Dust and dirt.

This is why it's not the destination that has any part of life. The destination is dead. It does not live. Only the journey lives.

So this is why no-one offering a destination has the answers.

We journey whilst we are alive. How we journey and how we live is part of how everything and our planet and our universe lives. That life is eternal and we are part of it.

Our teachers tried to tell us how to do it. How to live, and to show us the God of Life.

So what does Jesus tell us coming out of the tomb? RISE with me! In whatever form doesn't matter. He is asking us to raise our sights, our minds, our actions and our lives above the material so that we too may live in life.

What happens in death, a great matter of importance apparently for so many, has no relevance to those who live in life.

When we see this perspective, the actions of violence in this world become so pointless. It is for that reason that I believe the vision of greater understanding within the Church of the God of Life that lives will bring the Church its role to play. Jesus asks us to rise again, in life.

Best wishes

David P

David Pinnegar

A view of the newspapers today demonstrates that we have a very fundamental need that is essential and unavoidable for the Church to start to play its proper role in society. The common sense that Jesus taught should be brought visible to all, and its relevance as clear as daylight.

The Times reports
In God we used to trust, but now we prefer a hairdresser

This is the ultimate disgrace of the Church and of all who espouse and promote mere superstitious and exclusive Teddy Bear Christianity.

We read about
- a major world power in the hands of a criminal, murderer and abuser
- debate over whether it's necessary to renew the Armageddon machinery of Trident
- reports of vast resources being poured into killing machines in the form of autonomous robots
- migrants with little having what resources they have being confiscated

This uncreating world is leading to its uncreation. Extinction. It's not what humanity, capable of operating the process of creation as part of that creation, is.

I referred yesterday to Jesus asking us to rise with him. We are dead to life, dead to what the Creator has done for us and what we can do, and Jesus wants us to rise from the dead with him.

Not as the God of After Death, but as God of Life, the Creator of Life, the process of Creation requires us to live, here and now. The Creator is the PLUS.

Whether Jesus died physically and arose in idea, in spirit, or whether he didn't die and continued life ending his days somewhere else, that new life was dead to the old life. Jesus arising from the tomb asks us to put that old life, dead, behind us and look towards life creating and above the silly pettinesses of the material world. "What do the birds care for what they will be clothed with tomorrow?" It's a new life, a spiritual life, as Thiering would enlighten us, within the Community.

People's of this connected world now cannot get away from its function as a community.

Enlightenment is depressed by rules, and goodness cannot be enforced. It can only come through banishment of ignorance, education. This is the role of the Church.

After arising from the tomb, asking us to arise, reborn putting death behind us, what are we killing and putting to death? What are we embracing? In our new life we are being asked to embrace the consciousness of the creator. What in that tomb have we put away and left there? Our animal, instinctive consciousness.

So in the way in which we respond to others, and to circumstances, we kill the instinctive reaction, the emotional jerk, and instead we embrace the rational, that which creates, how to create, how to work the tools of creation.

We have to nail our instinctive emotional reactions to that cross, and leave them there hanging on the wood. The tomb allows those to be left in Hades, and like Orpheus, and like Lot's Wife looking back at the hell of Sodom and Gomorrah, we have to leave our dead selves in that tomb, arising in the spirit, the consciousness of the new life operating the work of the Creator.

I mentioned the second Pyramid as such an initiation chamber. Why do you think that our Gospel stories relate a visit to Egypt in the course of being born? The Christ is a birth in an idea-realm. The physical story is one that's wholly different and until we understand the idea-realm, causes difficulties and differences between peoples, texts and religions.

As soon as we invite others, migrants in the spiritual realm as well as the physical, into sharing with us the work of the Creator, then these understandings will enrich the creator consciousness.

Best wishes

David P



I think that as long as believers exist, even in small pockets, here and there, there is Hope.    Otherwise, we wouldn't have the prayer, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end.  Amen".   Amen = so be it.  I take heart from that.   And that inspires me to play the organ!

Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

David Drinkell

David Pinnegar

The current threads reporting the fate of organs with churches closing, being vandalised, set on fire explicitly demonstrates the reason for this thread about why the Church is shortselling itself to the human race and what the Church is able to do to make it relevant.

By the time that the human race has picked silly arguments between its religions, stupidities, "beliefs" that are only egos held more dear than life itself, and annihilated each other with weapons, and in arrogant illusion of supremacy over the earth, poisoning it with noxious gasses and nuclear radiation, any remaining people will curse the days when the superstitions of religions weren't fit for purpose.

With regard to mother earth, at our funerals we refer to dust and ashes from whence we came and to which we return. This is a false arrogance. We supreme in illusion hold the earth as worthless as dust, to which we, made by a wonderman personally in "his" image with superior intelligence, acquire false superiority. Whereas the reverse will be apparent that the Earth is our Mother superior to us who are the dust.

The Creator is of course the process through which all life is made, all comes to life and all that breathes and moves. It is energy, and what we call love, working together, as each other, caring, producing, creating. It is intelligent, for the reason that the stuff that doesn't create is random, idiotic, stupid.

We can see that the only difference is perspective, from the anthrocentric to the holistic, from the selfish to seeing from the other point of view and it's this that gives us different and arguable interpretations of language. We can only unfathom the meanings when we forget ourselves and think from others, and then having forgotten ourselves we find ourselves.

We've lost our way in religions and need to press the reset button to the 18th century. It is quite apparent that Francis Bacon placing codes in the translation of the Bible wasn't intending us to get away with thinking that the bible was to be read only on a surface reading in literal plain sight. The 18th century Moravian mission at Fulneck in Yorkshire was probably by no means a unique recurrence of a mission structure for which the example had been discovered by linguistic scholarship of the texts and the sort of linguistic code rules noticed and documented by Thiering. I personally marvelled that Benjamin Henry Latrobe was fluent in excess of 6 languages, and Latin and importantly Greek both revered. The practices such as the Methodist Agape, Love Feast, that derived from this time came from where? Certainly were the Pesher understanding of the texts to have been available to them, their 18th century practice and problems echoed that of the 1st century Church.

I hope therefore that readers will have picked up copies of Thierings books. On the surface they can be misread as destroying Christianity - but I should rephrase that - in the light of the analogy about our anthrocentricity above - her books can be read as destroying what we in our baby state love about Christianity for ourselves and oursake, just as it's obvious that Father Christmas who comes down chimneys every year to give presents to children is destroyed when we discover that Father Christmas doesn't exist.

But when we become adults and we create and have children, we discover that we are Father Christmas himself, whether it's the wife or the husband that plays the part.

Father Christmas has a lot to teach us about Christianity and Theiring's work helps us on the pathway to growing up.

Unfortunately the wide population has discovered that the Church's brand of Father Christmas in its current state of development doesn't exist. Baby stories have no use for them any more.

Theiring's work on the Dead Sea Scrolls puts a lot of jigsaw pieces into place that have been ignored and swept under the carpet for too long. They help us to see a bigger picture in which the clues of symbolism start to sweep aside differences between the religions.

As Christians we have great admiration for the martyrs who died and those so cruelly put to death by Nero.

Some would argue that under Roman rule there was remarkable tolerance of differences. We're presented with the picture that the Romans were anti-Christian but that's clearly not at all the case. Judaism was special and highly regarded but their system had its quirks.

One of these quirks was a set date since God made the earth. Because He made the earth in 7 days, the number 7 was important. 7 days, 7 weeks, 7 weeks of weeks, years of weeks, all sorts of permutations and the Jews weren't the only ones playing calendrical games - the Mayan Calendar being another famous example. Wasn't it 2012 when it was all set to happen?

The priests were responsible for keeping time. Hourly prayers had to be maintained. Prayers were said to time to keep time. Edmund Szekerly's work, whatever the sources, echoes the the morning, noon and night prayers of the Essenes. Then there was the problem that their time didn't match with the earth's year and other niceties.

The gut reason for this timekeeping was that their Living God was meant to intervene at the auspicious times. This was prophecy. If the prophet didn't get the calendar time right, he was declared a false prophet and killed.

"Killed" - this might have been a real bodily death or merely a symbolic death, stripped of his exalted position as priest, now a non-person still alive but demoted from his exalted position in "heaven" as a position among the social peer group. So we start to see rather different understandings of these words here than we are normally given to see set in the belief context of our indoctrinations.

By around 50BC special intervention by God has been expected but he hasn't manifested an earth shattering event recently. Isiah predicted things, and the other prophets too, and it all focussed on this special time. In one way and another it had to happen or the priests would have lost their power.

What would you do? You'd make it happen.

Thiering puts a perspective on what happened. Her work should not be dismissed lightly.

The particular relevance of this for us today is rather shocking. The Dead Sea Scrolls make it appear that there was Jerusalem and New Jerusalem - at Qumran. Among the religious there divisions happened between east and west, and arguments as to whether to allow gentiles to become Jews, and for Judaism to be given beyond the race and circumcision. The other main argument settled on how the Roman rule was to be overthrown or kept in control. Politics between the lines of Herod and lines of David "Born of David's line", the given title of our particular hero. Who among them was to be King, who Chief Priest, and who "Pope"? These were not inventions of Christianity. Among the differences were whether the Romans were to be neutered by incorporation and cooperation, or military rebellion. The Zealots were the militarians and were a threat to Rome.

The Zealots were expecting Divine intervention to shake off Roman rule. They were driven by their beliefs. They were driven by their Calendar. It had to happen. God required it to happen and if they helped Him He would intervene. They'd rule for 1000 years. Their militaristic impetus was something that terrorised Rome. Nero had to do something.

Has anyone heard of ISIS? People driven in belief of a Divine Caliphate and a 1000 year rule? Have we not learned from the outcome of the 1st World War causing a nation to want to throw off the perceived oppression of the other nations and inventing beliefs in false narratives and mythologies to justify an attempt at another example of a 1000 year rule?

We've seen it all before and it's time for the Church to fulfill its responsibility in bringing people together and doing the work of the Creator for which it says it stands.

That means throwing out the fairy stories, doing away with Father Christmas, and finding Father Christmas again thereby.

The idea always resurrects, because that is the nature of the Creator.

We cannot expect to have any more success in suppression of ISIS terrorism than Nero had in suppression of Christianity represented by the Zealot terrorists. All who were Christian were tarred with the Zealot brush, just as Muslims today.

We can only succeed against what we see to criticise by correcting the faults in our own eye first.

Construction stands only on foundations of stone, not edifices built on sand.

Our future can be assured only if we invite all to come in and share and work the work of the Creator doing away with the misunderstandings put deliberately in front of us to divide us. By example we can show how openness to multiple meanings of language allow all solutions to be found and result in harmony between the brothers and sisters of the human race. This Jesus would have understood. Others also.

The Creator as a process is a God that even Atheists can believe in. And other faiths too. The Church is in a position to be able to prove it, by doing it, and demonstrating that it works.

Best wishes

David P

Paul Duffy

I thought you were Gnostic, David. As I am sure you are well aware, Gnostics believe that the Earth was created by a Demiurgus, not the 'Real God'. The Demiurgus created the Universe imperfectly, which explains human suffering, and he is known by certain names which I won''t repeat here because it is controversial to do so. According to Gnostics, the 'Real God' doesn't create. You are probably aware that all the Pagan traditions, including Norse, Greek, Egyptian and Irish mythology and Hinduism and Gnosticism all fit with each other, yet Judeo-Christian and Muslim traditions stand apart in their monotheism (though Jesus fits with the Pagan traditions because of his death upon the World Tree.). As we know from Akhenaten in Egypt, monotheism is usually instigated as a means of control and power. This is the root of the problem, in my opinion.

Best wishes,

David Pinnegar

Dear Paul

;-) Yes - perhaps we can resolve issues by finding two different answers as to the creation of the Universe from outside and the creation of the Universe from inside.

The ancients were happy to define concepts as God - as is evidenced by the Ara Pacis, defining Peace as a Goddess and personified.

They were happy to define rulers as Gods also and when one has witnessed an Indian Royal wedding where the Prince about to be married is presented on a Dias, enthroned, against a sunburst backdrop it's easy to see how local Gods in human incarnation were revered. The processions through the streets echo those of millennia ago with all humanity crowding the streets and houses and balconies from above and the roofs showering rose petals upon precessions of white horses and silver carriages . . . and the whole splendour of the occasion demonstrating the majesty of the King, God incarnate.

When we start to open our eyes with our brothers next door we start to see where we come from.

And whilst there's much to strip back, there is also stuff of the east to which you refer which was universal and inherent also in Jesus' understanding. Alice Bailey and many others have been comfortable with Christian-Eastern compatibility.

One can strip back as much as one wants and find the knub from which the Church has a position to play. The variations between beliefs diminish as we remove their clothes.

Best wishes

David P

Postscript - my post above,2037.msg9387/topicseen.html#msg9387 is more than whether or not being gnostic matters or even what it means. Thiering reports Dead Sea Scrolls sources to refer to Jesus as Gnostic . . . and as the Anti-Priest . . . . There were factions in the 1st century Church.

The thinking of the Judaic sect at Qumran was ascetic, in sympathy with the Greek including concepts common to Plato. They had names for the titles of office among them in the group such as Adam, Moses, Abraham and Elijah. Difficult passages in Christianity such as the Ascension become easily visualised when one places these office holders by such titles in flaming robes (silver or gold) ascending to the High Place (in the temple).

The point is that we might long for and wish for our supernatural given interpretations to be true, but when understood they become down to earth fact of no cause for discord or argument between faiths, leaving core teachings about the Creator to be more important than questions of "who" God is or isn't and who Jesus is or isn't and in what dimension.

Crucially Jesus taught in parables. That command of the other dimension can therefore justifiably be expected to have been applied to the whole text and the titles of people accordingly likewise. I do recommend readers to read Thiering's work, not merely online but in her published books.

The human race currently needs the recipe for survival. That depends on creating in contrast to destroying. Learning the process, a process irrelevant of personalities, teachers, names or factions. I'm not writing to joke around.

Here's the image of pollution

from a hill 20 miles from Rome last week. Breathing it kills but we continue to make it.

Jesus' parables about loving neighbours, loving the creation, worship of the Creator process that brought matter together even resulting in us has a lot to give humanity. It's the process that the Church has to give once we've peeled away the layers of supernatural beyond common sense and superstition.

Anyone can choose to believe that the world is carried upon an elephant's back if they want - but that won't help humankind's survival.

The Church has a serious task and role to fulfill. There is none other which can.

David Pinnegar

According to the BBC today it's not just the Parish Churches at risk. Those who think that Parish Churches will disappear leaving the Cathedrals to survive might well have to think again.

This thread is as relevant to Cathedrals as to the Parishes.

A friend wrote to me in regards to this thread:
I think our society has problems to communicate properly at the moment. With society I mean the EU, not only germany. But that wouldn't be the biggest problem. We have a devided society in which everyone has their right and delusion about the currently problems like emigration. And this problems also influence the faith to god. Since the human race is forced to focus the attention on their currently difficulties, they're forced to lose the thought to god. But this is normal because to beliefe in god first you must have a piece of tidiness and order in your life. And even then, it's a question of faith. Faith is always emotional, never rational.

Currently we have a part of people in every EU country, which are missing the identity of their country. They're missing the feeling to be in France, in Germany or in Poland and having the possibility to enjoy their manners, customs, also their religion and their mentality. But sadly many of them are going to far and evolve fascist attitudes, because they don't feel well in their own country anymore. They simply lose their humanity 'cause they get the feeling to lose something personal. Last summer I was in Paris to visit the Louvre ( Miah, my girlfriend and I love the architecture  :D ) but Paris has somehow changed........ I am 30 years old but I didn't have the feeling to be in France, like in the end of the 90s.... Also Poland looks very similar like Germany....... same shops, same media, same fashion, even similar cuisine....

David, it's beautiful to learn and enjoy different cultures with their history, manners, customs, mentalities and religions and even to use them for his own life for evolving oneself. That's very important for the human race in my opinion.
But I am not sure anymore, if it's still beautiful to LIVE with them all........ Everyone also needs their own, private "home". Not only the nature, the animals, insects or botany... also humans created by god. ;)

Perhaps faith is rather something vague. Jesus taught us that it shouldn't be. He likened it to having to be secured as to a rock.

For anyone new to this thread my response might helpfully summarize:
QuoteYou put it so very well.

But even faith can be rational! You have faith that your car will get you from A to B . . . because the car has been built with rational foundations. Those are foundations built on rock. The so-called faith that so many people find in the nebulistic ectoplasmic exotica is something built on sand. Because they all see only through the eyes of their own imaginations, and the ego requires each to be right and his own right, all the egos argue. Those arguments are now dangering life.

Both Jesus and Buddha were teaching the putting aside of the ego.

One is only reborn when one puts to death the animal reaction, the ego imagination, and rises in spirit to see the whole view of creation.

The religions fall down in teaching to worship our teachers rather than get to the knub of what the teachers were teaching. That knub is what creates. One quark working with two others. One proton working with an electron. One atom working with another atom. In fact everything on earth that we experience is on the molecular level. Nothing exists that we touch that is its singular atomic form, only molecular - even O2. It all works together. Proteins. DNA. Species.

Golden rules apply to the process. What is more useful is more useful than the less useful and what is less useful can be less useful to the point of irrelevance. That is the parable of the Talents. That is also in effect Darwin, and population management. That which outgrows its usefulness or exhausts its raw materials ceases to be useful to the process of Creation.

The random processes are described by the parable of the Seed and the Sower.

So we are made through this process of stage selection at every level of stuff that has cooperated at every level to be useful. But we have forgotten what we are made of.

Anyway, the point is that 18th century Enlightenment view of religion is a rational foundation less tainted by the troublesome personality cult worship that the religions have become, both in Jesus and in Mohammed.

So in brief I am trying to encourage Christian churches to retain their traditions, their traditional music and services, read from what Jesus taught about the Creator rather than what the Church wants to teach about Jesus, and invite members of other religions in together to read from their texts which say the same.

Once we can start doing that and feeling that we can share and understand and still retain our senses of cultural roots, then we will come to celebrate peace and even Paris might feel the same again.

But we will also achieve the triumph of learning and understanding, upon which faith is well founded, rather than the vagaries of superstition.

The most potent model for behaviour is that offered by the example of matter itself. Matter can cooperate with other matter mechanically without losing its own identity. A stone wall is more useful for a building than a pile of stones. The individual stones are beautiful but none so beautiful as the stone wall they can make and to which each can contribute acquiring a greater identity as the wall. A wall can be beautiful and not lose its beauty, indeed acquire greater beauty as part of a magnificent building.

Just because we embrace others with whom to build does not mean that we lose our identity. Indeed the whole point of one interpretation of the feeding of the 5000 was that we can share without fear of losing and still end up with plenty left over.

Best wishes

David P