Author Topic: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R  (Read 6030 times)

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nathansonic

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Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« on: September 12, 2016, 01:16:38 PM »
Hi. I'm just trying to get some advice about the value of a pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R.
I'm selling on behalf of a church where it has been used very little.
It's in good condition. Everything works well. Just some scuffs to the outer wooden casing.

The organ can be seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nathansonic/albums/72157673350007656

What sort of price would I expect to sell this for?

Thanks in advance.

David Drinkell

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 02:52:34 PM »
Hammonds do seem to be immortal.  There was one in the Hall at Homerton College, Cambridge in 1978 when I did my education year there.  It was a very early one - I believe from the late 1930s - but it still worked, although it was inclined to smoke when excited.

I don't think you can hope to make much money on it, but one avenue worth exploring is the world of light music, especially groups who play music from the sixties.  Such pieces often included a Hammond organ and its very distinctive sound is sought-after.  Modern key-boards sometimes have a "Hammond" feature, but it doesn't sound the same and I have met several players who wanted to acquire a genuine Hammond.

revtonynewnham

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2016, 08:51:01 AM »
Hi
There are several Hammond Organ forums & e-mail groups out there (and no doubt some on Facebook), or you could try the Vintage Organ Forum (http://www.mikebracchi.co.uk/) or FB group - perhaps the FB group will bring more response.

Every Blessing

Tony

David Drinkell

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2016, 02:48:19 PM »
It's kind of ironic, isn't it, that we never think an electronic organ sounds quite like a pipe organ (at least, after we've heard it a few times), but similarly, nothing sounds quite like a Hammond except a Hammond!

JBR

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2016, 10:15:54 PM »
I'm afraid I have no idea, but does an electronic Hammond sound the same as an old tone-wheel Hammond?
A missionary from Yorkshire to the primitive people of Lancashire

David Drinkell

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2016, 03:31:41 AM »
I'm no expert, but the cognoscenti seem agreed that the tone-wheel Hammond had its own particular sound.

revtonynewnham

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2016, 08:46:33 AM »
Hi
The tonewheel Hammond does have a very distinctive sound.  Until recently, attempts to simulate it electronically have signally failed IMHO, but the modern "clonewheels" (to use the jargon) such as my Nord C2D come pretty close.

The Hammond tonewheel generators produce an almost (but not completely) pure sinewave with an abrupt start and finish as key contacts close & open.  The drawbars represent harmonics and can be mixed to give an approximation to other tonalities - at least in the steady state.  However, I'm convinced that part of the Hammond's distinctive sound is down to the tuning.  The tonewheels are driven mechanically from a single motor using gears, and there is no gear ratio that is 100% correct for producing an equal-temperament scale.  Hammonds use 2 different ratios which, although close, aren't quite spot on, and I suspect that adds to the distinctive sound.  Technical details can be found in the late Alan Douglas' book "An Electronic Musical Instrument Manual" (various editions from around 1949 up to the 1960's? 

Every Blessing

Tony

nathansonic

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2016, 02:35:19 PM »
Thanks everyone for the info.

Mike Manners

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2016, 12:39:24 PM »
If I am not too late!

The RT3 is the so-called 'classical' version of the C3, B3, and A100.

The RT3 sounds exactly the same as the aforementioned alternatives except that the RT3 has extended bass registers (drawbars) and is equipped with an AGO 32 note pedalboard, unlike the 25 note examples above.

The Hammond (C3, B3, RT3 and A100) and Leslie speaker 145, 147, 122 and 122r combination are vital in the world of Rock, Country, and Pop.

As such, it is more likely to be of value to professional recording studios than as a home entertainment instrument.

Air Lyndhurst studios, Abbey Road studios, and other world-class complexes in UK, Europe, and USA. Smaller Studios will also source them if they can justify the cost.

In professional audio circles, I have seen those original Hammond Console models selling for high prices depending on condition. A restored C3 and Leslie 122 can sell for 8000 to 20000. Am unrestored but little-used RT3 and valve Leslie such as the 122, might not attract as much, perhaps 3000-7000.

Knowing your target is the key. If you target home organists, you are likely not get its worth. Professionals working in Rock etc, know the  instruments worth :)

David Pinnegar

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2016, 07:33:17 PM »
Mike - thanks so much for joining and for your enthusiastic contributions.

I have a 1937 Hammond E if anyone's interested, with the double set of tonewheels for the original chorus generator. The case has had woodworm problems but has been kept under control with woodworm fluids.

The Hammond E was the classical church model with full pedalboard and typewriter button presets.

Best wishes

David P

Mike Manners

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2016, 10:22:25 AM »
I'm afraid I have no idea, but does an electronic Hammond sound the same as an old tone-wheel Hammond?

The problem with modelling Hammond organs in software isn't necessarily the problem. Modelling their leslie speakers is. In a word Psychoacoustics !

There have been several brave attempts at modelling leslie cabinets in VST plugin-format from commercial developers, but, in my opinion, fall short. Those getting closest still aren't close enough to the Leslie 122 that they attempt to emulate.

Perhaps a developer on the Hauptwerk platform might produce a good Hammond tonewheel sample library, but Leslie speakers cannot be sampled; Psychoacoustics !

dragonser

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2016, 08:46:47 PM »
HI,
well I may be wrong, but one problem of trying to emulate the Leslie Cabinet is that the sound is bounced off the room surfaces outside the cabinet...   so to emulate it properly I think you would need more than two speakers.
I think that some of the Hammond Organ clones can get quite close to the sound, and can be useful if you don't want, or are not able to move a full size Hammond about.
regards Peter B

Mike Manners

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Re: Value of pre-1961 Hammond RT3 + Leslie 122R
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2016, 09:42:53 AM »
HI,
well I may be wrong, but one problem of trying to emulate the Leslie Cabinet is that the sound is bounced off the room surfaces outside the cabinet...   so to emulate it properly I think you would need more than two speakers.
I think that some of the Hammond Organ clones can get quite close to the sound, and can be useful if you don't want, or are not able to move a full size Hammond about.
regards Peter B

I don't believe you are wrong, the room and cabinet work together.

The various reviews in the music technology press however, praising this or that organ+leslie plugin have left me shouting "No, this doesn't get it done!"

Famously, the Native Instruments B4 and B4 v2. The leslie was appalling. I had a suspicion that they modelled a transistor leslie built for the stage. The rotors went in similar direction too, not contrary motion. The internal cabinet surface of those (712, 815) was ragged, breaking up what sonority there was.

It is not only the amplifier plus tremolo that makes up the sound, it is first, about how that sound is thrown around inside the wooden cabinet of the original 145, 147, 122  cabinets, and the wonderful sonority produced therein.

Then as each component rotates, that sound develops further with a 3d Doppler Shift. The transition from slow to fast speeds and back is very complex with the room taking part in the party. It is the room AND the cabinet and the room.

I have watched studio engineers taking the backs off speakers (top and bottom) and close-miking just the back. Others have miked the open back, and front.
Close miking in the studio is usually an attempt to reduce spill from other instruments. It might also be in ignorance of the psychoacoustic phenomena at work.

BBC engineers got it right in my opinion, but recording Hammond and rotary speakers will always be a compromise.

Given the best dream environment of small live room, I would set-up four close microphones for top and bottom avoiding turbulence. Then mirror that for the room itself. Each microphone will have its own channel on the mixing console, and fed to a 24 track tape machine, and then back into digital audio workstation for all those channels mixed for the best combination. Dream on Hey Ho :)

I have inadvertently steered this thread off-topic ! My apologies to the original poster, 'nathansonic'.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 09:51:34 AM by Mike Manners »

 


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