Author Topic: Too late...  (Read 19119 times)

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pwhodges

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Too late...
« on: October 29, 2010, 08:41:33 PM »

David Pinnegar

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2010, 01:43:52 AM »
Dear Paul

Thanks so much for alerting us on this one. This is the very raison d'etre for the existence of this forum and why I exhort members and guests to share their enthusiasm. Feeding the boilers of enthusiasm is, at times I feel, rather like shovelling coal.

These are the photos appearing there:-





Best wishes

David P
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 01:51:59 AM by David Pinnegar »
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

barniclecompton

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2010, 08:20:35 PM »
Bloody hell  :o thats just.....disgusting.

Holditch

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2010, 10:54:17 PM »
I suspect some funamental break down in leadership has happened at this church, it seems to me to be a shear act of vandalism.

I'm sure there is more than meets the eye! There has to be!
Dubois is driving me mad! must practice practice practice

Jonathan Lane

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2010, 04:40:02 AM »
There is some information that one of the advisors to the church prior to destruction of the organ was **** Organs.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 04:58:52 AM by Jonathan Lane »

KB7DQH

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2010, 09:12:08 AM »
This actually goes beyond the bounds of "vandalism" or even "Felony Malicious Mischief" straight to

"Organicide in the First Degree" :'( :'( :'(

And to think a member of the congregation of this church VOLUNTEERED their time to construct which on the face of things appears to be a magnificent and beautiful instrument...

Regardless of whatever faults may have plagued the instrument to "salvage" the pipework and destroy the rest is simply beyond words...

Eric
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The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

David Pinnegar

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2010, 03:59:30 PM »
There is some information that one of the advisors to the church prior to destruction of the organ was Allen Organs.

Aah! So often the case. A vested interest lurking in the background.

It's for this reason that I _hate_ the electronic organ commercial community clocking up electronic organ pipe organ replacements on their trophy-hunters' scoreboards with a vengence.

It's also the reason why, although I use a variety of electronics for the concert instrument for purpose of exciting people about the organ repertoire, I'll refuse to state in public the details of how I get speakers on the instrument to make it sound great, even if that means getting chucked out of the Hauptwerk forum. Anyone buying a commercial electronic organ of whatever make or technology must remain happy to accept that they're getting second best. Carlo Curley proved that to an audience at Chiddingly in Sussex when the imported 3 manual Makin sounded like a hi-fi system in comparison to the one manual gem of an instrument that the parish had just had restored. http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D04239

If the Albany parish think their getting better out of an Allen than their pipe organ, as they probably did not pay the full cost of their pipe organ and therefore did not appreciate it, their perception of their ears will probably be proportional to the price they pay. I hope Allen charge them well!

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

Jonathan Lane

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 03:58:53 AM »
The problem with commercial electronic organ speaker systems is that they cannot recreate the sound of a pipe organ with the number and size of speakers they provide.  Apart from the vandelism that is caused by the installers themselves, for which a good example is an organ we are about to acquire, which when one well known English electronic organ firm installed the speakers in the organ case, they trampled some of the pipes, and just heaped the rest into the Swell box.  The pipe organ will be restored, lovingly, as it is the organ I learnt to play on!  However, back to speakers, my understanding, and I'm sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong, is that to fully recreate the sound of a pipe organ, we need a speaker to represent each pipe, and one of appropriate size.  This matched to a fully sampled organ, not just sampling one note from a rank and recreating it throughout the compass.  This latter point is particularly true if you want to recreate a French romantic organ, where the pressures vary thoughout the compass and the scaling means a straight octave transposition of the sound does not reflect the actual size of the pipe an octave higher or lower.

Jonathan

David Pinnegar

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 06:24:31 AM »
Dear Jonathan

Yes - I agree with you. Trying to reproduce an organ through conventional speakers, even in multiples, is like squeezing the sound through the portholes of a ship, the portholes being the diameter of the speakers concerned. Clearly it's not going to be entirely successful . . .

To be perfectly blunt, I don't think there is any harm in naming any electronic speaker installers who in their actions have made a pipe organ less restorable in the future by reason of damaging pipework. It might make such companies more accountable to the heritage and more responsible in the future.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

KB7DQH

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2010, 10:04:15 AM »
http://poststar.com/news/local/article_a47cf020-e557-11df-8631-001cc4c03286.html
http://wnyt.com/article/stories/S1824355.shtml?cat=300
An obituary... :'( :'( :'(

For those on the Mander list  :-X  who actually questioned the validity of the claims that this actually happened :o :o :o   the above link should put to rest any illusions that this is an illusion...

I suspect there may be even more "intrigue" than just greedy electronic organ suppliers...

Eric
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« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 12:25:57 PM by KB7DQH »
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

Jonathan Lane

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2010, 01:24:26 PM »
Thank you Eric.  And I'm just waiting for Manders to remove the thread, they have a habit if its in the least bit controversial!

Jonathan

David Pinnegar

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2010, 08:16:34 PM »
Hi!

Thanks Eric for the update! I suspect that it's an early onset of Seasonal Affective Disorder as it's clear the instrument blocked a window. Perhaps there were some that simply wanted light and thought it should never have been placed there in the first place . . .

Thank you Eric.  And I'm just waiting for Manders to remove the thread, they have a habit if its in the least bit controversial!

Perhaps we should check the source of information naming the particular electronic organ producer and possibly expunge the name from these posts? In contrast, direct evidence of a company vandalising pipes in the course of installing speakers speaks for itself.

The facebook updates show the situation to be even more bizarre - no it's not cracks in the building this time, it's sparks in the wiring . . . clearly irrepairable on an instrument with purely mechanical action: ;D

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Stephen Best I just heard why the Queensbury TRACKER organ was destroyed: it was because of the wiring. The organ was arcing and it could have burned the church down. That made the instrument such a huge liability that it couldn't be given to another church. Honest to goodness -- I couldn't possibly make this up. :-/
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            Mari Reive what?
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            John Jurgensen Couldn't it have been rewired at the offending place(s)?
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            John Jurgensen Meanwhile, all the pipework has been thrown away.
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            Lori Bennett Meszler They don't have electricians in Queensbury?
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            Agnes Armstrong ‎... must have been all that electric key action!
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 2 peopleStephen Best and Zachary Uram like this.
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            Cody Mead Absolutely unbelievable.... a shame.
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            Sarah Bach ahhhh I see....
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            John Jurgensen Even if it was all electric key, I find it very difficult to believe that every single connection would be arcing.
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            Stephen Best All those tracker action parts had serious electrical issues. OMC OMG OMG. (Shaking head in disbelief!)
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            John Jurgensen They should've told them that you can't run the hair dryer AND the organ blower at the same time.
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            Stephen Best Read this carefully: this was a TRACKER ACTION organ, a MECHANICAL ACTION organ. Does everyone "get it" now?
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            Ed Kemp in an early morning post from reliable source in the Albany diocese:
            "And no, the pastor has no shame. The "safety" concerns are bogus."
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personZachary Uram likes this.
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            Stephen Best We're told that the pipework (Stinkens and Letourneau) was all trucked back to Connecticut, neatly packed in pipe trays, so that it could be thrown away there. That kept the church from having to deal with recycling issues. (That reminds me -- I have a bridge for sale. Any takers?)
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 3 people3 people like this.
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            Rees Roberts What's more of a liability issue is all of the hot air coming out of the preachers mouth.
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            Thomas Dressler
            Wikipedia: "A lie is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a ...punishment or repercussion for one's actions. To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth. A liar is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly . . ."See more
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            Thomas Dressler Catholic Encyclopedia: "But if the common teaching of Catholic theology on this point be admitted, and we grant that lying is always wrong, it follows that we are never justified in telling a lie, for we may not do evil that good may come: the end does not justify the means."
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            Thomas Dressler Also Catholic Encyclopedia: "St. Raymund . . . allows that others teach that a lie should be told when a man's life is at stake."
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            Thomas Dressler wonders whether his lifelong love of playing tracker organs has been much more dangerous than he ever thought. :)
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            Stephen Best One can't be too careful. Those old style organs don't have proper grounding. :-)
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            Rene Marceau Unless there was electric stop action, the ONLY other need for electricity was the blower! It may be an over simplification, but examining the wiring and the blower could have averted this tragedy!
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            Stephen Best ‎@Rene: No...the outcome was predetermined. I'm sure there are other "justifications" waiting in reserve.
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            Rene Marceau Thanks, Stephen! Just a little slow on the upbeat!
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            William Hubert Is this electrical issue from Foley Baker as well ? Actually there was electric stop action at least in regards to the combination action i.e electrically moved the stops on or off. I don't know if it was with a linear motor or electric pneumatic mechanisims however I did't see any of that in the dumpster. Or the useless worthless blower or the wooden keyboards that no one would want.
            14 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Nancy Long unplug and call an electrician? If all else fails, put it on Ebay to the highest bidder and by a keyboard for every choir member with the profits.
            14 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Rees Roberts Actually Stephen, those old trackers are quite prone to falling out of the loft. St. Ouen's fell out last year.
            13 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Bill Miller What"s the problem?? We all know that tracker organs have miles of DCC wire and that's a fire hazard... right? <grin>
            13 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Elizabeth Jones Well, Stephen, Stephen, Stephen. How reliaable is your information again? strictly hearsay...strictly hearsay...that appears to be a huge problem here.
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            Zachary Uram whoa
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            Brian Fahey Lets see, a tracker might have lights for the music rack, and another for the pedal board. Certainly the disco lights in the chamber are turned off unless being tuned. That leaves.... The blower. Wow, really sparks my interest.
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            Elizabeth Jones Stephen just told me this info came from a friend of his who had emailed the organist. She is not an expert on the organ and I'm sure she wasn't expecting her personal experiences and opinion on the organ to be shared with the world, or to be poked fun at for that matter. It is heresay.
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            Leonardo Ciampa
            Friends: my only response to this is: Happy Reformation Day! This morning I did the first movement of Bach Cantata 80 at my church, during the service. I'm sorry, but I said all along that this priest was not going to be reprimanded ONE I...OTA for any of this, and now, based on the latest information, I believe this even more strongly. With so many little boys to fondle, and such little time, why do any of us believe, for a second, that any cardinal or bishop is going to concern himself with a lost Open Diapason or Krummhorn? It's over; the battle is lost. My only consolation ... actually I have two of them: the Lutheran Church, and the Episcopal Church. Those are the two institutions that give me hope that good liturgy and good music are not dead.See more
            11 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Norman Selby Is there any room for legal action to be taken against several parties?
            10 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            John Lauter Can we start a letter writing campaign to the archdiocese to get this nutcase priest reprimanded? The organ could have been sold and used elsewhere by a congregation that values such an instrument. About this organ: I know it was a tracker--was it a neo Baroque screecher with two fundamental stops and 15 mixtures or was it a nicely balanced, later sound? I am not a fan of trackers, but this instrument did not deserve this treatment.
            6 hours ago · Like

Best wishes

David P
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 08:35:00 PM by David Pinnegar »
David Pinnegar, BSc ARCS

Jonathan Lane

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2010, 03:46:28 AM »
Apparently the name of the electronic builder in question came directly from the church, althogh even by me it is third hand!

KB7DQH

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2010, 06:18:27 AM »
Quoted from Steve Best's post to the Mander list...

Quote
Fact: this was Mr. DeMarse's opus 7; he offered to build the organ free of charge if the church paid the cost of material
Fact: about 400 contributors underwrote the cost of this organ; another 180 children each bought one pipe; about 40 volunteers assisted in organ builder as needed
Fact: the organ was unfinished at the time of its dedicatory recital, but was later used successfully for a recital as part of an AGO convention, and was in regular use until Mr. DeMarse's tenure as the church music director ended
Fact: there was a problem with sagging facade pipes; these pipes had been built specifically for the organ by well known firm; proposals to remedy the problem ranged from repair to replacement
Fact: only the firm that ultimately destroyed the organ proclaimed the instrument was beyond salvation
Fact: the direction of the church's music program changed significantly after Mr. DeMarse left as music director
Fact: another church in the same diocese wanted the organ and was prepared spend whatever was required to remove it, store it, and reinstall it; that church had already been in contact with a fine organ builder regarding the project
Fact: there were 48 ranks of pipes, made mostly by Stinkens, some by Letourneau
Fact: there was some extraordinarily fine craftsmanship in this organ; even the keyboards were personally made by Mr. DeMarse
Fact: the recommendations/opinions of David Vredenberg, Diocesan Organ Consultant, were ignored; Mr. Vredenberg has made this fact public knowledge
Fact: only the firm that removed the organ condemned it as beyond saving
Fact: members of the church that wanted the organ, and the organist who had been asked to demonstrate the organ for them, were denied access to the building to see the organ; the following day the dumpster was delivered; the day after that, the organ was destroyed

Perhaps the rest is conjecture. But that much is absolutely true.

And more...

Quote
The following post is from the Diocesan Organ Consultant, David Vredenburg. It speaks for itself:

"The whole affair is an outrage. The pastor took a personal offense to its builder (and the former director of music of the parish) and vowed to get it "trashed and dumped on the builder's lawn" from the start of this whole process. His mind made up, he proceeded to ignore the evaluations of 5 reputable firms that lauded the instrument highly and side with the one firm he convinced, it seems, to trash it verbally.

"He then presented his cooked figures and manipulated facts directly to the Chancellor of the Diocese, bypassing me as the organ consultant (he "didn't trust" my evaluation, since I hadn't sided with him) and obtaining her and the chief financial officer's permission to proceed with the instrument's removal. He was not, however, given permission to "trash" it or prevent its being examined and obtained by any interested parishes.

"I suggest you express your outrage directly to the bishop: The Very Rev. Howard J. Hubbard, D. D.,
The Roman Catholic Diocese of Albany, 40 N. Main Ave., Albany, NY 12203-1422.

"It is, in any case, too late for the organ. I understand it has been totally disassembled, and divided between the dumpster and the Foley-Baker truck. I shall never trust that company again, since it is with their slanted collusion that this has come to pass.

David A. Vredenburg"



Quote
Thank you Eric.  And I'm just waiting for Manders to remove the thread, they have a habit if its in the least bit controversial!

Another snippet...

Quote
QUOTE (Clarion Doublette @ Nov 1 2010, 01:54 AM) *
I hope this thread remains.... the freedom of speech surrounding this issue is important. ... In my opinion I still think there were some serious misjudgements made in this case.



Hi all

I've been asked to look at this topic, and I think that it should remain (ie not be deleted) but I will delete the remaining quotes of Sue Wright's e-mail. If you want to know what it said, please refer to "Justadad".

Rachel Mawhood
Moderator, Mander Organs

Eric
KB7DQH

« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 06:39:22 AM by KB7DQH »
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

Steve Best

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2010, 07:12:36 AM »
Although the Allen Organ Company was listed as one of "consultants" on a "position paper" circulated by the church, the Allen Organ Company was NOT, I repeat, was NOT involved in the destruction of this organ.  The first time that the Allen Organ representative knew that company was listed by the church was when I contacted him yesterday. 

The story of the destruction of this organ is in part reported in a newspaper article of today:

http://poststar.com/news/local/article_a47cf020-e557-11df-8631-001cc4c03286.html

However, if you would like to read more about the saga and are already a member of Facebook, you can add me and read several posts which have been written since last Wednesday.  The link is http://www.facebook.com/stevebest

Thanks for helping get the word out about this unconscionable act of deliberate vandalism. 


KB7DQH

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2010, 07:25:43 AM »
Steve-- Glad you joined us here 8) and have been able to shed some more light on this... well... :o

The Poststar.com article leaves very little information as to "why"...  :'(

Which is why this forum exists...  You know doubt observed the photos on the front page...

If you have time go ahead and view the Youtube video which is embedded...  I watched that one before the "birth" of this forum, I honestly can say I cried while watching that...

Again, thanks for taking the time to become a member and help us understand...

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

Jonathan Lane

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2010, 01:34:03 PM »
Although the Allen Organ Company was listed as one of "consultants" on a "position paper" circulated by the church, the Allen Organ Company was NOT, I repeat, was NOT involved in the destruction of this organ.  The first time that the Allen Organ representative knew that company was listed by the church was when I contacted him yesterday. 


Thanks for this Steve, it is good to hear that Allen weren't complicit.  However, do I still understand that the church claimed that Allen were advisors, whether directly or indirectly.  Perhaps you could clarify this, and if so surely Allen should have some come-back in the law against the church for misrepresentation at the least.  I am relieved that Allen have been cleared, and apologies to them for linking them to this disgraceful act, although I still don't like their organs!, I am a pipe organ builder, so perhaps that is understandable!!

Jonathan
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 05:00:41 AM by Jonathan Lane »

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2010, 05:18:32 PM »
Hi!


Welcome new members!


Free speech and in particular independence from any manufacturers is fundamental to stoking the fires of boilers of enthusiasm . . . so that in the future people enjoy, and respect, pipe organs.


Whilst it's said that all publicity is good publicity, it is of concern here that the name of an electronic manufacturer has been linked here as a negative influence. I would add, however, that elsewhere on this forum mention has been made of that same electronic manufacturer having produced an instrument in the 1960s which is now being replaced by a pipe organ, and possibly regrettably as the instrument from what we saw in the videos was a fine instrument and that even though it was electronic, it was such a mammoth opus and effective into the bargain, that people would have had reason to seek its preservation. It was certainly inspiring enough to cause the parish to want to build a real pipe organ - and so this electronic producer should be applauded in the cause of pipe organ enthusiasm.


I would ask people who have mentioned the name to think responsibly about whether the name should be linked to this subject matter and to alter their posts substituting the words "electronic manufacturer" instead. What has been said about the behaviour of other electronic manufacturers, trampling pipes etc, is of great relevance in generality to pipe organ preservation issues - and that's what this forum is about.


Best wishes


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NonPlayingAnorak

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2010, 05:28:16 PM »
What really pisses me off is the following:
Quote
The removal of the organ was completed last week by Foley-Baker Inc., which will send the pipes to a hazard waste facility due to a lead issue

A seemingly reputable 42-year-old firm dealing in new pipe organs and restoration of old ones, giving such a negative assessment and seeing that the pipework is destroyed? Organ pipes have lead in them, get over it... I bet the priest persuaded them to make damn sure every little bit of it was destroyed... seems EXTREMELY fishy to me.

Good that the DOC is hopping mad - hopefully if enough people write to the bishop (and copy their letters/emails to the press) he'll have to take notice and do something... but I won't hold my breath. Catholic bishops are generally pretty bad - add in the bovine stupidity typical of so many Americans and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Jonathan Lane

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Re: Too late...
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2010, 04:58:02 AM »
What really pisses me off is the following:
Quote
The removal of the organ was completed last week by Foley-Baker Inc., which will send the pipes to a hazard waste facility due to a lead issue

A seemingly reputable 42-year-old firm dealing in new pipe organs and restoration of old ones, giving such a negative assessment and seeing that the pipework is destroyed?

We agree about something!  Of course, it by far the worse to recycle the pipes than re-use them!

 


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