Author Topic: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ  (Read 22805 times)

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pwhodges

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Re: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2010, 07:03:34 PM »
Yes, busy busy busy right now.  I'll try to find time for a couple of posts this evening - otherwise it'll be Thursday...  Certainly I have some comments to make  ;)

Paul

pwhodges

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Re: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2010, 04:49:51 AM »
Busy weekend as well, and my broadband was broken before it...

Perhaps the only true recordings of pipes are going to be stereo recordings with a vertically mounted pair directed at both ends of the pipe?

I've never investigated the physics of flue pipes - though I do know that it is not well researched, and that there is some disagreement about the niceties of how they work.  The open end is indeed out of phase with the mouth, but I suspect that is unimportant because the mouth is where the bulk of the noise comes from.  You can consider the mouth of a pipe as an amplifier, in which the resonance in the body of the pipe controls the airflow at the mouth.

I wouldn't at this stage bother with trying to record the two ends of the pipe.  The time to do that will be when we have reached a point at which we find that the reproduction of open pipes is discernibly inferior to that of stopped pipes.

On the matter of speaker defects, my objection to using them deliberately as part of the character of the sound is partly to do with its being unnecessary, and partly because of uncontrollability.  Whatever character is being added to the sound by the speaker, we can add more repeatably in the electronics; and if the character being added is part of the desired sound, why was it not in our recording of the source?  You don't want to add the same character twice, because you then create a different sound - just as a clarinet stop played with or without the addition of the cornet separé is two different sounds.

If you are modelling a sound, there may be situations where using the speaker as part of the model would be possible, or even necessary - for instance, if the speaker was able to simulate the spacial distribution of the sound from a pipe - but I get no sense that we are close to doing that in a realistic way.

Paul

David Pinnegar

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Re: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2010, 02:11:00 AM »
I've never investigated the physics of flue pipes - though I do know that it is not well researched, and that there is some disagreement about the niceties of how they work.  The open end is indeed out of phase with the mouth,  . . .

(2) On the matter of speaker defects, my objection to using them deliberately as part of the character of the sound is partly to do with its being unnecessary, and partly because of uncontrollability.  Whatever character is being added to the sound by the speaker, we can add more repeatably in the electronics;  . . .

(3) if the speaker was able to simulate the spacial distribution of the sound from a pipe - but I get no sense that we are close to doing that in a realistic way.

Hi!

(1) different sounds from different ends of the pipe - as a result of my toasting accident this weekend, I had to revoice numerous Makin stops. In the early 1990s Makin incarnations, certain stops were split between channels, notably the Great Open. Of the two channels, one was flute sounding and second harmonic, whilst the other was a creamy reedy principal type of sound. This would accord with the concept of the main sound coming from the mouth with just some low harmonic flute elements coming from the other end of the pipe.

(2) Uncontrollability of speakers and easier control through electronics . . . ? Um. ??? Face a speaker into a saucepan and the sound will sound more like a clarinet. I have not needed to do that, but the results are quite reliable. Interestingly there is a British speaker manufacturer that seems to have a fetish for saucepan enclosed speakers, with holes in, and I can't understand why. However, it remains an area where it's "horses for courses . . . "

(3) Spacial distribution of pipes . . .I beleive I might have started to crack that one and am looking forward for an opportunity to experiment mere . . .  Give me a ring when you're heading for the south east and I'll put the kettle on . . .

Finally, and don't tell the toaster manufacturers . . . from today's concert experience, given the right treatment, there is no reason whatever why electronic organs have to be any less than truly inspirational. However, we are coming across a generation of electronic (and that means software nowadays) who have never even heard of Quad electrostatics and currently commercial electronics developed without knowledge of the developments of speakers from the 1920s to the early 1960s and accordingly modern systems have little hope of achieving such ends. Arguably principles of speaker design have not advanced since then . .

Best wishes

David P
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 02:28:20 AM by David Pinnegar »

David Pinnegar

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Who said that electronics can't satisfy on grand tutti full organ?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2010, 04:40:13 AM »
Hi!

The purpose of the instrument at Hammerwood Park is in now way to promote electronic instruments. Indeed, no-one can buy such an instrument off the shelf and in order to achieve what it does, each component has received special consideration. The purpose of the instrument is merely to be able to promote the repertoire of the King of Instruments.

To that end, Jeremy was delighted to play and to record for YouTube and we hope that you might enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD9FFPhyRd4

We were intrigued to find a vintage recording of this piece at Coventry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1vqWcQXAGk
taken at breakneck speed.

Best wishes

David P

pwhodges

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Re: Who said that electronics can't satisfy on grand tutti full organ?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2010, 02:13:02 PM »
we hope that you might enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD9FFPhyRd4
I have a recording of Francis Jackson playing this on the Grove Organ at Tewkesbury (the reopening recital when it was restored).  The whole recital is quite something - maybe I'll look into making it available to all...

Paul

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Re: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2010, 10:39:48 PM »
Took some time to visit a local WI-FI hotspot and had a listen to both selections-- with headphones :-[

What a fun piece of music ;) ;D 8) 8) 8)   

Eric
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The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

KB7DQH

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Re: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2010, 06:43:37 AM »
 ;D Well, I ran the modem long enough at home to kill the landline connection at least once, but,
managed to archive the selections previously mentioned and will soon have them burnt onto a music CD ;)

One of the responses to David's Youtube upload mentioned something horrible about the "acoustic"...

Well, the organ is running "slightly damp" samples into a small, dry space, and the microphones were fairly close to the speakers...  So it's not going to sound like Royal Albert Hall or  (insert name of favorite cathedral here)   but by playing around with the sound effects package associated with the soundcard in "colossus"  ???

 (This refers to a supercomputer in a really old SCI-FI movie made before I was born ;) :o  "I am the Voice of World Control"-- Yes, THAT one ;D ;D ;D

I "soaked the sound to my taste"  thus creating  the "acoustical space" of my choice...

 :-X :-X :-X ;)
Eric
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The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

NonPlayingAnorak

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Re: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2010, 03:14:34 PM »
playing around with the sound effects package associated with the soundcard in "colossus"  ???

 (This refers to a supercomputer in a really old SCI-FI movie made before I was born ;) :o  "I am the Voice of World Control"-- Yes, THAT one ;D ;D ;D

Wasn't Colossus also the name of the supercomputer at Bletchley Park?

revtonynewnham

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Re: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2010, 11:08:37 PM »
playing around with the sound effects package associated with the soundcard in "colossus"  ???



Wasn't Colossus also the name of the supercomputer at Bletchley Park?

Yes

David Pinnegar

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Re: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2010, 06:51:43 AM »
I "soaked the sound to my taste"  thus creating  the "acoustical space" of my choice...

Dear Eric

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear any processed versions you have created. The organ is totally and absolutely "dry" in terms of the current Hauptwerk terminology and I mix down around 30 channels to two to be processed by an Alesis Microverb giving a short room acoustic and a Zoom effects processor to give a longer hall acoustic.

I have used longer reverberation in the past but, with a greater treble presence on this occasion, I was worried about a faintly metallic edge to the sound which seems to come across with small speakers but disappears with good speakers at a realistic volume. In due course I'll post a reverberation tail on which comments to improvement will be greatly welcomed.

In due course, I have a bucket-brigade delay line from a 1980s analogue organ and I'm planning to play with this with a couple of differently timed feedback points and treble reduction on each, in order to obtain that treble reducing reverb that we have heard on the samples I posted from the St Maximin disc on another thread of this forum. It might be more realistic than the commercial units

Best wishes

David P

KB7DQH

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Re: Why electronic organs fail to impress in their grand tutti full organ
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 08:27:23 AM »
Actually, all I did was play back the recorded audio through Windows Media Player... Living behind one of the icons is a really nifty "effects generator" :o ;D    T'was that easy ;)  If you want to know what your organ sounds like playing into a sewer pipe, have a go ;D ;)

Next project is to figure out how to get photographs onto this forum from my local hard disk and you could see the hardware employed for a stunt I did on Halloween night ;D

Eric
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The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

 


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