Digging deeper - The Golden Bough

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

In the Bible, sacrificewas part of the Old Covenant - but the ultimate self-sacrifice of Jesus brings to an end the need for further animal sacrifices - which after all were, with the benefit of the understanding in the New Testament - but a symbol of Christ's work of salvation.  But then, St Paul does talk about us bringing a "sacrifice of praise" - which can lead to all sorts of interesting discussion - but not today!

Every Blessing

Tony

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Tony (is) just about to start working on the sermon for our carol service next Sunday evening on the theme of Christ, the Light of the World.

Interestingly, the Holman Hunt painting of the same name was painted literally a stone's throw from a church where my mother was DofM from 2002 to 2006 - St Mary the Virgin, Ewell, home to a very fine 1889 Father Willis, 3m/p, 39ss, very similar to the Truro Cathedral organ. Far too big for its building! I think it's NPOR ref D08165, if you're interested.

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Hi

In the Bible, sacrificewas part of the Old Covenant - but the ultimate self-sacrifice of Jesus brings to an end the need for further animal sacrifices - which after all were, with the benefit of the understanding in the New Testament - but a symbol of Christ's work of salvation.  But then, St Paul does talk about us bringing a "sacrifice of praise" - which can lead to all sorts of interesting discussion - but not today!

Every Blessing

Tony

Could it be, perhaps, that the aborted sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham is actually an allegorical device rather than a true even in its own right?

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

The aborted sacrifice of Isaac is normally taken as an extreme test of Abraham's faith - and as such, it's symbolic in several aspects - the only son, "God will provide a sacrifice" and so on.  I tend to take the view that Biblical stories are real events, unless there's obvious reasons why not (e.g. the parables) - but I do accept that there are other views, and in cases like this, the important thing is what the story teaches, rather than "did it really happen".

Every Blessing

Tony

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Indeed. Personally, I hardly believe a word of Genesis... I think that Darwin was absolutely right about evolution, except in his exclusion of God from the whole equation. It's clear that the Earth (or, indeed, our Solar System, galaxy, the whole universe, known or unknown) was NOT created in six days, and Man was far from evolutionarily complete by the time Adam and Eve were cast out from the Garden of Eden... and the Earth's climate has always been such that clothing would have been a necessity just for warmth in some parts of the world from the start!

However, this is not to say that Genesis has nothing useful to teach us. It would be an insult to the judgment of whoever compiled the Torah/Old Testament to start with to say so.

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

Certainly, if you believe that God is omnipotent (which by definition He is), then a 6 periods of 24 hours creation must be possible.  However, what exactly is meant by "day"?  After all, elsewhere in the Bible, it is used of some future, indefinite time - and also, Psalm 90:4 talks of 1,000 years as a day.

More telling in my view though is the fact that we calculate time in relation to the earth's rotation on its axis and around the sun - but in Genesis, the sun wasn't created until day 4!

The creation account was written for a people who would have little or no scientific understanding - the most important thing is that God created - the one thing that science can't explain is "why" the world was formed - there are various theories of "how" - and don't forget that Darwin's ideas are still an unproven theory!

There's little reason to doubt Genesis in general - there are parallels in many other ancient accounts - and rejecting parts of the Bible puts us on dangerous ground - just where do you draw the line?  And how much of the story - especially in chapters 1-11 is expressed in poetic/pictorial language to try and explain issues such as multiple languages?

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

Firstly in relation to NonPlaying's post, as earth had not been created at the beginning of time, a day in our time on earth has no meaning with respect to time in Genesis. Time is in any event an illusion and is far from absolute as anyone who has come across The Twins Paradox will know. As Tony points out, in the example of its teaching that 1000 years can be just as a day, the bible told us more about time than we wanted to know before Einstein told us so.

Genesis should not be discounted on the basis of perception of time.

Tony is perfectly justified in looking at the Bible as a record of historical fact, unless proved otherwise, and a visit to the archeological record on the second floor of the British Museum is very confirmatory.







I have probably written elsewhere about how we pay not enough heed to the story of Babel.

Genesis 6 in particular has a significant foundation in mythology. The following imagery will not be unfamiliar to readers of this thread:






Personally in seeing corroboration of the biblical themes in other traditions and mythologies, and knowing where they came from in terms of the religions that Christianity subsumed such as the Sun god, the Resurrection god and other themes identified in the Golden Bough, helps me to appreciate the universality that christianity provides in teaching the way of the world, the earth and the heavens, and helps me to understand its inclusivity rather than its exclusivity.

By incorporating everyone else's theme into the religion, Christianity has brought forward the _whole_ into the religious instructional arena and is therefore as good a way as any for people to come to understand our interation with the invisible, immortal and all powerful.

Coming to understand those tenets of religion that Christians focus upon, perhaps not quite as in absolute terms as absolutists would like to have us believe, but as a tool to launch us further, we are able to progress through the pretty flowers of the thorns at the gate.

Followers of other religions too might usefully look at their beliefs and texts to discover too where their tenets as tools might be.

Best wishes

David P

[NonPlayingAnorak]

The following imagery will not be unfamiliar to readers of this thread:

Sorry David, but it is, I haven't a clue what they are =)

Not all of us have the kind of phenomenally HUGE brain you have... I know that mine is stuffed full of nonsense to do with cars, aeroplanes and old steam engines.

Incidentally, calling me "NonPlaying" seems a bit awkward - just say NPA, or you could even just call me Richard  ;D

Furthermore, yes, we'll definitely see you on Saturday. Will reply on the thread on that subject...

[KB7DQH]

One of the comments to the article Steve and I linked to related to the

killing of a "king"

carried an interesting quote...   Certainly applicable to the current discussion...

It is truly  intriguing how a number of different, seemingly "unrelated" events or discussions are in fact related...

Eric
KB7DQH

[David Pinnegar]

Sorry David, but it is, I haven't a clue what they are =)

I'm looking for a photo of an original vase in the Louvre. This imagery was commonplace between 500BC and 500AD and rediscovered in the 18th century. I believe it to be a visual parallel or even source of a commonplace expression in the vernacular.

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

The whole point perhaps of this thread is that knowing what, shall we say, Pagan influences have been incorporated into Christianity by no means invalidates the religion but actually helps us to identify what is fringe rather than core to the faith.

The good thing about being Christian rather than followers of Attis or Cybele and the worship of the pine trees by now installed in all Churches is that us males don't have to run around beating drums and joining in a frenzy in which we de-man ourselves. However, apparently the Vatican was built in Rome on the site of the temple in worship of the pine tree. Perhaps were Roman Catholic priests to have followed the examples of their Pagan forebears, some of them being prohibited from marriage whilst still in possession of their equipment would not have had the problems notoriously publicised in recent decades.

The imagery above derives from the worship of Dionysus or Bacchus, the ressurection god who taught agriculture and in particular viticulture to mankind. It was popular throughout the Renaissance and in particular in the 18th century.

Has anyone heard the expression "The Gods look after children and drunken men" or sanitised to the singular "God looks after . . . "? Fifteen years ago, 1 in 5 people over 60 were familiar with the saying but now the proportion is 1 in 30 or less.

Best wishes

David P

[NonPlayingAnorak]

the pine trees by now installed in all Churches

I think you'll find that they're generally fir, not pine  ;D

Perhaps were Roman Catholic priests to have followed the examples of their Pagan forebears, some of them being prohibited from marriage whilst still in possession of their equipment would not have had the problems notoriously publicised in recent decades.

My God... I'm no firm advocate of priestly celibacy, but there are a few points to make.

1) - the human body is sacred. Mutilation like that is just a no-no. For similar, though not identical, reasons, cremation was frowned upon until not so long ago.

2) - the Anglican church has had enough of its own child abuse cases involving married priests

3) - although this is somewhat undermined by (2), we should just allow R.C. priests to marry. David Goddard at West Grinstead is a case in point - married, was ordained in the CofE, converted to R.C. about 1993, bringing his wife and children with him. They have all made a huge contribution to the parish of West Grinstead and Henfield, to the wider Diocese of Affluence and Bourgeoisie and to the whole community. With a whole family to run this historic recusant church at WG - the Priest House dates, in part, to the 15th Century, and still has all its priest holes, from one of which Francis Bell was dragged off to Tyburn - they manage to do so much more than the basics. If it had just been one average, middle-of-the-road, celibate R.C. priest, the parish would be very much the poorer. It's an interesting indication of what could be in a lot of R.C. parishes - and it could maybe help cut the child abuse rates too.[/quote]

[David Pinnegar]

Perhaps were Roman Catholic priests to have followed the examples of their Pagan forebears, some of them being prohibited from marriage whilst still in possession of their equipment would not have had the problems notoriously publicised in recent decades.

http://www.organmatters.co.uk/Smileys/default/cry.gif
My God... I'm no firm advocate of priestly celibacy, but there are a few points to make.

:-)

;)

:'(

I thought there might be. . . .  :o The evergreen tree was the centre of "pagan" fertility worship. Bearing in mind the Vatican was built upon the site of the centre of such worship the exercise of some politically wicked tongue in cheek SOH was most certainly not to have been taken seriously.  ;D

So who has heard the expression that the Gods look after children and drunken men?




Best wishes

David P

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Sorry, what's SOH? And no, I've never heard that one, nor my parents or even, I suspect, my grandparents...

[David Pinnegar]

Hi! SOH - Sense Of Humour!

That's what's really good about the Greek myths - they demonstrated that the Gods (equates to Sons of God in Genesis 6) have a sense of humour.

Often life puts a big notice in front of you saying "STOP" - "NOT HERE" -
look at this imagery:

and it's the gods playing games so it's best taken with a GSOH (Good Sense Of Humour) as it's "their" way of sending you in a different direction.

In the 18th Century, recognition of the Greek myths equivalence with Genesis was much more widespread and it's my opinion that the Parthenon was built in celebration of the Creation of Mankind and through Pandora given license to multiply and populate the earth. The Parthenon Frieze represents The First Judgment just as we see The Last Judgment as we see on the walls of Christian places of worship. The first and the last are equivalent, and the issues the same. It accords with the first chapter of Job.

People are much too serious about religion as all religion is partial - just a slice of the cake that each division of mankind came away with from Babel - and because they don't like to admit it, they have to feel defensive about protecting their slice of the cake, as though it is the whole cake. But it's not.

In understanding the Golden Bough and the ancient origins and needs which we see incorporated into our brands of Christianity, we start to realise where core christianity is, and the extent to which all religions have fundamental truths.

Christianity invites us all to be sons and daughters of God, just as Christ was himself Son of God. He asked us to be reborn so as to be able to be Sons and Daughters of God, and in this way we see that perhaps we don't need to argue with other religions as to whether Christ was physically, spiritually or metaphorically Son of God.

Welcome to the Solstice at which we celebrate and hope for the return of the Sun. This is the whole point of 25th of December: the Son is reborn again. From this we expect growth and fruit.

Hail Dionysus who taught us agriculture!



The whole point of what I am writing is that we are just a small part of a much longer, older, bigger story and to those at the beginings of Christianity, these ideas would have been much closer to the consciousness as they were incorporated into our practice of the religion and ceremonies of Christianity.

So how has heard the expression "The Gods look after Children and Drunken Men"?

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

This is looking suspiciously like synchretism!  The whole point of Christianity is that it IS unique!  Unlike other religions, which in essence consist of a set of rules and obligations, Christianity is a relationship with God.  The ultimate mystery of Christmas isn't about the winter solstice - there's nothing to say that Jesus was actually born in December, it's just a convenient time - and may well have been a take-over of existing pagan festivals by the church - but rather it's the incredible thought that Jesus is Immanuel - God with us.

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

The ultimate mystery of Christmas isn't about the winter solstice - there's nothing to say that Jesus was actually born in December, it's just a convenient time - and may well have been a take-over of existing pagan festivals by the church

Dear Tony

Well that's just the point.

I hope that by throwing up into the air some of the worst that can be thrown at Christianity, the chaff will blow away leaving the corn to be harvested, as in a threshing room.

I'm not at all sure that syncretism is a bad thing and the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism suggests that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all themselves the products of syncretism . . .

As such, what I'm saying is that if one understands where the different threads come from, one can recognise in the religion things that are core to Jesus' teachings and those in contrast which have been adopted from elsewhere as illustrations of wide universal truths but which are not core fundamentals sepcifically to christianity.

I'm sure that so many followers of all religions really don't like the way in which subsidiary issues are separatist rather than inclusive and unifying, and many refuse to follow any religions at all because their differences make each incompatible, highlighting perceived absurdity.

Elsewhere I have written about the need to analyse the texts and teachings, as in a Fourier Transform or the process of Integral or Differential Calculus, through the lens of the criteria "does this encourage the loving of neighbours as ourselves?". If what a religion teaches encourages dissent from Christ's prime instruction, then it's worthy of questioning as division is the force of earthly power structures, and not the work nor realm of Heaven.

Worship of God is not about, nor achieved by, argument.

The whole point of the first chapter of Job in which the Sons of God come down and Satan comes among them, and indeed the figures of Hermes (Mercury), Ares (Mars), Artemis (Diana) and Aphrodite (Venus) on the frieze of the Parthenon, is to prove to the Father or Chairman, how easily mankind can be tempted into the temptations of Desire of the flesh and of the material world, Deceit, lying and theiving, resulting in War and Hate, and in other words how easily mankind can be tempted into being bad. Everything that leads to Hate and War, division and difference, is the work of the Devil, Satan and the politics of Ares on the Parthenon Frieze.

When religious leaders of all faiths and denominations can start to pull the various threads together then far more will follow and fewer will declare atheism in despair.

Best wishes

David P

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Hi

This is looking suspiciously like synchretism!  The whole point of Christianity is that it IS unique!  Unlike other religions, which in essence consist of a set of rules and obligations, Christianity is a relationship with God.  The ultimate mystery of Christmas isn't about the winter solstice - there's nothing to say that Jesus was actually born in December, it's just a convenient time - and may well have been a take-over of existing pagan festivals by the church - but rather it's the incredible thought that Jesus is Immanuel - God with us.

Every Blessing

Tony

Indeed - although God, Yahweh and Allah are one and the same, all in the Abrahamic tradition, I believe (maybe incorrectly) that it is blasphemous in Islam to declare that you have a 'relationship with God'.

And David, yes, I know, I missed out on the bleedin' obvious. Unfortunately, since Saturday, I have gone down with what is at least a stinker of a cold, although the symptoms remind me of the tonsillitis I had a few years ago: this, along with some extremely silly dreams (often compound dreams - you know, wake up, debrief family member on silly dream, wake up again) in which a variety of real, familiar places get strung together in a completely unreal manner, is also playing havoc with my ability to sleep, so I'm sorry if I sound thick at all! Organ recital over...

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

In its reports of the Stonehenge rituals over the Solstice and Lunar eclipse, The Times reports that between 50,000 and 120,000 in the next census are likely to declare their religion as Druid or Pagan.

Christianity will lose out unless it reincorporates understanding of the pagan traditions that it subsumed, demonstrating how, why and where in its doctrine that it does so and how in the Christian worship of Jesus, the concepts and worship within Christianity are superior in encompassing all and are more holistic than the simpler beliefs that it surpasses.

There is nothing wrong in saying for instance that we don't know when Christ was born but we celebrate Christmas at the time of the Solstice to celebrate the rebirth of the Sun in our lives, our spiritual sun in our lives and an opportunity for all to be reborn in the new light after the winter darkness whilst acknowledging the work of the Great Architect in the creation of the physical circumstances and laws that created the formation of our Sun, and our planet.

The practices of the Essenes is particularly attractive in praying for the assistance of the angels of the earthly mother every morning and the assistance of the angels of the Heavenly Father in the evening. The translations of Szekely of texts supressed by the Vatican are worth reading and can provide a model from which a shift in Christian attitudes and perspective more attuned to our need for greater respect for our mother earth can arise.

Best wishes

David P