Author Topic: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance  (Read 33660 times)

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RobCharles1981

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Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« on: January 12, 2011, 05:32:11 AM »
Well Its about time I posted here so hi all!  :)

In One of my main Church's I play I have a Johannus Opus 1105 Organ which was purchased From Makin Organs back in 2001, the organ was built around 1980-1990's and it was brought second hand From what I understand the warranty for the organ has expired way back in 2002.  And since this time Makin Organs have "maintained" it but since last year they came and more or less "mucked it up"

[] I wanted someone else to maintain the organ I was recommended Anthony Bogdan Organ's about maintaining it,  [but] at that point the recent organ maintenance was booked by the Church without my knowing and I felt rather cross nothing was done about this at all.

When I spoke to KH he said the PCC Secretary and Warden didn't want me there and I was livid in the way I was treated and I told him I was going to have a chat with the local Diocesan Organ Advisor and he gave me some good advice about it and tried to speak to my vicar about this which backfired, []  all hell broke loose one Sunday Morning.   You can understand how I felt.

The Church insit Makin Organs for the future and i'm blocked out on communication with them and I'm not having this at all from what I gather the church spent at least 250 for a full service on the organ what a con!!

Another Organ Friend of mine I told him about this and was livid too he recommend me Ormatronix Organs have any forum members have dealings with the guy who runs this and if so what is he like?

Hope you can help.

Cheers

Rob
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 11:13:07 PM by organforumadmin »
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NonPlayingAnorak

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 05:33:50 AM »
Bin the [edited: inapppropriate language] toaster and get a nice reliable pipe organ  >:(
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 02:23:34 AM by organforumadmin »

David Pinnegar

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 06:56:57 AM »
Dear Rob

Perhaps you might like to edit your post as certain parties might not like the detail of the contents - I'm quite sure that we've all got the point. It's important to have a forum where free speech is encouraged but I'm sure that other parties would say that there are two sides to the story - which probably don't need to be aired here. We can certainly understand what you are feeling but it's resulting in what appears to be accusations which perhaps might be taken too seriously. . . and Forum Admins don't want to have to be answering issues of libel . . .

Makins have been very good to me with advice and assistance with the ex Londonderry instrument and once recently when I was in extremis before a concert. Anthony Bogdan helped guide me in the right directions when the instrument first arrived and he's generally a helpful person with great experience.

However, in my panic, Ormatronix was very very highly recommended and http://www.organmatters.co.uk/index.php?topic=314.0 resulted.

What are the general problems you're experiencing with the instrument?

As an aside, give me a budget of 3000 on speakers and WOW! the Parish would never want a pipe organ . . . until the electronics broke down . . .

Best wishes

David P
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 07:04:31 AM by David Pinnegar »

RobCharles1981

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 04:48:31 PM »
Hi David and thank you.

The Problems really is down to the lack of maintenance with it, I would rather have someone who is an Organist themselves and who has had many years of experience of repairing organs I was firstly recommended Anthony about this then recently someone recommended Ormatronix.

I want to go with somebody who is cheaper on maintenance and has commonsense.

What did Anthony Bogdan do for you and as well as Ormatonix?

Thanks

Rob
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David Pinnegar

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2011, 07:41:59 PM »
Dear Rob

Anthony Bogdan knew the Londonderry Makin from its original installation there and was familiar with the multichannel output and arrangement of internal amplifiers and output controls for output voicing. From his introduction I was able to improve the instrument beyond all recognition. I bought from Makin a digital voicing control box and paying attention to voicing and specifically the quality and disposition of loudspeakers the instrument has been improved very significantly as a result, to the point at which perhaps if it had started that way, I might not have embarked upon its enlargement  in terms of stops and manuals . . .

Ormatronix - I have not had direct experience but when I had an accident putting half the Makin out of action and needed help in a hurry, numerous voices made recommendation in his direction.

To be blunt, however, if one is travelling a significant distance from a central headquarters to visit a specific place individually, a day charge is likely to be substantial - but perhaps a pipe organ builder might not charge much more than that for the tuning of a whole few boxes of pipes. . . .

This is where pipe organs might even represent better value than electronics. The problem is one of business scalability - a pipe organ builder having the maintenance of clutches of instruments in different localities in his care can work around a specific area as a group economising on travelling whereas isolated installations require specific visits and associated travelling.

Best wishes

David P
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 11:15:30 PM by organforumadmin »

Barrie Davis

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2011, 01:23:40 AM »
Dear Rob,

I sympathise with your problems, it is always very hard to seemingly make the right decision and have it shot down in flames by the PCC. I am afraid your local organ advisor will have little or no input into who looks after the instrument, they are only interested in replacements or alterations as those require a faculty.

Makins have some really good engineers who understand Johannus inside out, after all it is the parent company of Makin.

I know Johannus and Makin differ very much over regulation, Makins were regulated on site rank by rank but not Johannus. Apart from the voicing everything else is the same.

Barrie

RobCharles1981

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 02:06:13 AM »
Hi David:

Thanks very much for the input but I'm not sure why the MD of Makin recons he wasn't trained in Makin or Johannus Organs but he sure does carry allot of knowledge in them and with others.  I think there was a break down in communication somewhere because someone else recommended me Anthony Bogdan too and I tried sticking to my guns or so to speak but he pointed if I went to Anthony and asked for the maintenance and possible speaker installation he then reckons that he's not officially trained but did do work for makin in the past.

The only reason why I was recommended Ormatronix was that he was cheaper than Makin and a Church Musician the Makins own one is not.

Cheers

Rob
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RobCharles1981

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 02:09:32 AM »
Dear Rob,

I sympathise with your problems, it is always very hard to seemingly make the right decision and have it shot down in flames by the PCC. I am afraid your local organ advisor will have little or no input into who looks after the instrument, they are only interested in replacements or alterations as those require a faculty.

Makins have some really good engineers who understand Johannus inside out, after all it is the parent company of Makin.

I know Johannus and Makin differ very much over regulation, Makins were regulated on site rank by rank but not Johannus. Apart from the voicing everything else is the same.

Barrie


Hi Barrie

Our Organ Advisor is an Organist he is the vicar of Hay on Wye, and he offered a few "practical tips"   

As I said to David about Ormatronix I looking at this guy because he is experienced in organ repair and knows his stuff.  The Johannus 1105 is old Technology so its not easy to voice this organ.

Thanks

Rob
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David Pinnegar

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 08:46:25 AM »
The Johannus 1105 is old Technology so its not easy to voice this organ.

Dear Rob

Is it digital? Is it early 1990s? If so there may be a small rectangular connector block, possibly 16 pin which might be brought out to the front of the instrument or may be buried in the back and this is the connector for a digital voicing box - and I have one.

If you buy a service manual from WD Greenhill and send it to me I'll happily look it over and see what options the circuits might offer.

Best wishes

David P

RobCharles1981

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 11:16:25 PM »
The Johannus 1105 is old Technology so its not easy to voice this organ.

Dear Rob

Is it digital? Is it early 1990s? If so there may be a small rectangular connector block, possibly 16 pin which might be brought out to the front of the instrument or may be buried in the back and this is the connector for a digital voicing box - and I have one.

If you buy a service manual from WD Greenhill and send it to me I'll happily look it over and see what options the circuits might offer.

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

Unfortunately there's no connection what your describing Makin Confirmed this sometime ago, so it requires physcial changes changing resistors.

Cheers

Rob
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NonPlayingAnorak

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2011, 05:43:55 AM »
Sounds like a complex job likely not worth doing. You might as well just get a new/nearly new toaster. Better still, have you considered a nice secondhand pipe organ? Beat the pants off the toaster for musicality and longevity. Toasters are a false economy in the vast majority of cases.

RobCharles1981

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2011, 02:59:16 AM »
Sounds like a complex job likely not worth doing. You might as well just get a new/nearly new toaster. Better still, have you considered a nice secondhand pipe organ? Beat the pants off the toaster for musicality and longevity. Toasters are a false economy in the vast majority of cases.

The Church wouldn't want to to that.

What I'm sensing here, the last correspondence I had from the Church regarding that issue.

I think the issue here is a lack of communication with Makin Organs, when I asked the [name removed] on [name removed] he said that [name removed] Did do some work for them a while ago, then he came back that he wasn't "Officially" trained in Makin or Johannus Organs I was abit skeptical, I seem to remember a time when I spoke with [name removed] a while ago he mentioned Roy Orme that has been Officially Trained so why didn't he say it at this point?

From a recent feedback I had from the Church Council if "we" went to [name removed] Organs for adption of the organ and servicing it would invalidate our existing "warranty" with Makin I've tried at least 5 times to tell the church that there is no warranty on the organ that expired in 2002.

For the sake of Argument if we where to go with [name removed] and he "mucks" up the organ ie putting the wrong speakers or mucking up the electronics to the organ it could result in him "blowing up" the organ or so to speak.

[name removed] Suggests at that time only "approved" people or contractors would be benificial for Argument Sake Roy (OrmatronixOrgans) would be better.

I hope this Makes sense.

Rob
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 02:31:00 AM by organforumadmin »
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David Pinnegar

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2011, 04:22:18 AM »
Dear Rob

I suspect that Roy at Ormatronix might have a greater in depth electronic knowledge but really one does not need to be too "precious" about electronic maintenance. Electronic organs can be considered generally in functional blocks of which amplifiers and speakers are independant of tone generation and if any disaster should happen to them, they are universally replaceable in a modular way.

If voicing means changing resistors it means that the original instrument is likely to be analogue with tone forming circuits and one simply does not want to muck around with that. However, there may be variable resistors somewhere which can adjust the relative volumes of each stop and there may be associated tone controls. It's not rocket science.

You're quite right to comment that a guarantee that ran out in 2002 is now worthless.

Does the instrument have a MIDI output? This might be useful possibly for Hauptwerk extensions. If it does it suggests a digital basis of sound generation and this can need more specialised knowledge in some circumstances.

Provided your instrument is producing sound, that signal can be taken off to other amplifiers or speakers and used in different ways till your heart's content and most probably by anyone with quite a basic knowledge. I know from past correspondence that you need external speakers rather than the inbuilt typical console speakers - that's not difficult and the speakers need not be expensive.

Other than that, what specifically is the area of maintenance that's troubling you?

If you'd like to sport the cost of the circuit diagram from
http://www.wdgreenhill.com/manu/johannus.htm
I can advise further. The 1105 is not listed - it will be a modified 1100 or something like a 1110 but either Johannus or Greenhill may be able to guide you on which is closest.

Best wishes

David P
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 04:28:47 AM by David Pinnegar »

NonPlayingAnorak

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2011, 06:29:21 AM »
Rob, I've got an idea, not as helpful as David's in the short term - point out that, if they shelled out enough to buy and overhaul a nice redundant pipe organ, they'd likely get a 25-30 year warranty on the work... In that time, they will have to completely replace not only this toaster but its successor too. There will be a severe limit as to how reliable or musically satisfactory this Thing will ever be, even adapted to some form of MIDI system. A simple tracker-action pipe organ can go for half a century without needing any major work and will be much better musically. Also, what I've heard of toaster makers in general is that the aftersales care is often not brilliant... I have no direct experience here, though, so I can't comment.

RobCharles1981

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2011, 03:50:05 PM »
Dear Rob

I suspect that Roy at Ormatronix might have a greater in depth electronic knowledge but really one does not need to be too "precious" about electronic maintenance. Electronic organs can be considered generally in functional blocks of which amplifiers and speakers are independant of tone generation and if any disaster should happen to them, they are universally replaceable in a modular way.

If voicing means changing resistors it means that the original instrument is likely to be analogue with tone forming circuits and one simply does not want to muck around with that. However, there may be variable resistors somewhere which can adjust the relative volumes of each stop and there may be associated tone controls. It's not rocket science.

You're quite right to comment that a guarantee that ran out in 2002 is now worthless.

Does the instrument have a MIDI output? This might be useful possibly for Hauptwerk extensions. If it does it suggests a digital basis of sound generation and this can need more specialised knowledge in some circumstances.

Provided your instrument is producing sound, that signal can be taken off to other amplifiers or speakers and used in different ways till your heart's content and most probably by anyone with quite a basic knowledge. I know from past correspondence that you need external speakers rather than the inbuilt typical console speakers - that's not difficult and the speakers need not be expensive.

Other than that, what specifically is the area of maintenance that's troubling you?

If you'd like to sport the cost of the circuit diagram from
http://www.wdgreenhill.com/manu/johannus.htm
I can advise further. The 1105 is not listed - it will be a modified 1100 or something like a 1110 but either Johannus or Greenhill may be able to guide you on which is closest.

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

Thanks for the input,

I really like the sound of Roys experience and I will find out more about him when he replies.

I had a little explore of the organ sometime ago, all the resistors are on the voice cards with three points I assume for each division, I'm afraid I've not done electronics in School or nothing like that so I can't go no further in that department, the only way to change the overall volume of the organ is by the additional amplifier controls as there are two of them.  One deals with the Internal and the other the External.

Johannus sent me the service manual to look at of interest.

Yes the organ does have Midi connectors too.  And Roy would be the best one for the external speakers too if he would to advise on the way forward.

At the moment the only problems I have, I done a sound test of the stops and the Great Mixture seems just a little underpowered and not in tune with the others, then on the pedal department the Subbass stop which the "engineer" lowered to a silly level and whats resulted of the organ lost its bass and with that in theory the last 3 notes on the bottom pedal bored are resonating the console, its either coming from the Bass speaker or somewhere else.

Thanks

Rob

P.S added the user manual for the Johannus 1105:

http://www.mediafire.com/?2at2kibrq4zi9ct
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 06:31:04 PM by RobCharles1981 »
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David Pinnegar

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2011, 05:43:42 AM »
Dear Rob

Thanks for the link.

This is a digital organ of the early 1990s based on the M114 sound cards. These are 8 bit and by today's standards primitive _but_ the sounds can be remarkably good if processed in the right way.

This means 
  • adjusting amplifiers well,
  • using specifically designed loudspeakers (not generic nor PA speakers) - which can make the most remarkable difference to realism achievable - and
  • an octave coupler can be derived which can totally transform the effectiveness of the instrument, in particular regenerating the lost upper frequency harmonics that cause a chord in the right hand in the top two octaves to be lost, overpowered by a chord in the left hand. These can be applied selectively to certain groups of stops.

I don't know the sound samples of this instrument but from the stop list on page 6 of the service manual, and being aware of two instruments of this character belonging to players on YouTube, one in Italy and one in South America, well voiced, the instrument should be capable of sounding superb.

With regard to tuning of the Mixture, this is odd in that it cannot be out of tune with other stops on the Great, all of which are given pitch common to all stops by the generator board page 11, in particular chip U8, the LM567 main oscillator. This goes through the 4059 frequency dividers and then 4046 Phased Locked Loop chips which generate three seperate frequencies governed by the tremulants and in particular settings for pitch and chorus intensity given by the DIPswitches 1-3 and 5-8 on S1.

I'd imagine that these might do something to your Mixture, possibly affected by how many stops are drawn, although I don't see a feedback mechanism for this, and it might simply be for the Celeste 8ft. Page 16 identifies switches 1-3 as Tuning Swell and 4-8 as Chorus Swell - this may be the Celeste. However, the block diagram Page 1 shows a SELCO . . . 73 bus which may relate to increasing "chorus" as numbers of stops are drawn.

How therefore the Great Mixture can be out of tune is a mystery. This should be a question both for Roy Orme and for David Fetterman at Makins: you need someone who was dealing with these circuits 20 years ago.

Which stops will be adjustable in volume will depend on groupings fed to the amplifiers but these are potentially choosable and alterable with links indicated on the voice cards, P12 to PA1-6 on the main bus. The potentiometers on these cards adjust a voltage bias, nothing to do with voicing, and can be responsible not only for distortion but also a thump, a bit like tracker noise, on each note.

Page 16 indicates the general volume controls for each of the amplifiers on the amplifier cards, and the associated treble and bass controls for each channel. The extent to which these are useful controls depends on stop groupings.

On this vintage instrument, there should be a connector or two for an "INDINOTE" voicing box. With the box one can adjust the volume both of individual notes, as well as individual ranks as well as the extent of chiff or otherwise.

The amplifier boards use a TDA 7250 amplifier circuit controlling TIP142 and TIP147 complementary transistor pairs arranged in the spec sheet guideline:
http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/pdf/TDA7250.pdf


This circuit should be a foolproof short circuit protected circuit, but even despite the fuses, F4 and F3, the short circuit protection fails and it is essential to take care not to short speaker wires by accident at any time that the organ is turned on.

Certainly the Pedal department will be coming through its own amplifier and this should therefore be adjustable directly on the amplifier volume control - an easy adjustment. From Page 2 this looks as though it's the upper amplifier of Amp card A, the left hand of the pair. However, this will also adjust the 16fts on the manuals too . . . and if these are fine at the moment, one will need to use the Indinote voicing box.

Best wishes

David P

NonPlayingAnorak

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 08:01:25 AM »
[expletive removed]! David, here is a prime opportunity to get a problematic electrical appliance replaced with a musical instrument and you're offering advice on how to turn it into something which sounds 'superb'! I'm sorry, but no conventionally-sampled toaster will ever sound 'superb' - nor will any toaster match any but the worst pipe organs for longevity. Come on, let's use this opportunity to convince Rob's PCC that they need a nice redundant 2m Conacher/Blackett and Howdon which I know is available, not far from there...
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 02:32:58 AM by organforumadmin »

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 08:46:47 AM »
Oh God!

Please would you kindly not blaspheme.


This thread is about a parish whose budget is in hundreds of pounds and where there are clearly diplomatic difficulties where it is unlikely that further funds can be released.


Elsewhere in this forum there have been examples of where electronics that are good enough get replaced by better pipe organs on the basis of the enthusiasm created. The previous post was made in that spirit and it should be obvious to you that the chances of raising a hundred times the budgets currently in issue at the parish to achieve the goal you suggest are hardly likely to be relevant in the circumstances.

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« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 09:07:33 AM by organforumadmin »

NonPlayingAnorak

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 09:49:28 AM »
I wasn't so much blaspheming as issuing a despairing plea to my maker. Are a few diplomatic difficulties (seemingly caused by ignorance of organs/toasters and a certain amount of prejudice and old loyalties dying hard) really insurmountable? I'm sure that a case could be mounted to the PCC that it's not worth spending hundreds, if not more, fixing and improving a toaster that's going to go 'phutt' within a few years anyway. I know of cases where, to keep costs down, organs have been transferred successfully to new homes largely by volunteer labour (this happened a few years back at Lavenham) - for the cost of fixing/improving this thing, then buying a replacement toaster a few years later, the church could be well on its way to securing a half-decent pipe organ which could easily run two new toasters' lifetimes without major work instead. I know of cases where diplomatic issues on PCCs have been overcome and new organ fundraising appeals begun, even in some unlikely places...

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Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2011, 02:01:55 PM »
Hi,
with regard to the lower notes on the pedal board resonating in the console, If the organ is about 20 years old or so then it would be worth checking to see if the bolts holding the speakers onto the case have loosened ? as it is possible these would make the lower notes rattle. Of course it is possible that it might be something else. I would suggest trying out the headphone socket to see if you can hear the same sound but I guess that most headphones won't reproduce the low frequencies correctly anyway.....
many thanks also for more tech info about the Organ.

regards Peter B


 


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