News:

If you have difficulty registering for an account on the forum please email antespam@gmail.com. In the question regarding the composer use just the surname, not including forenames Charles-Marie.

Main Menu

Electronics need not be an apology for real instruments nor fail on full organ

Started by David Pinnegar, March 08, 2011, 08:16:43 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

David Pinnegar

Hi!

The performer at the weekend certainly made the most of the Hammerwood organ. Whilst electronic instruments should not be good enough to be a threat to pipe organ building, I believe they should be inspirational enough to do justice to the repertoire
Reger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4jvJDGQXEc
Messiaen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPqoorLguj0
Bach D minor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHOcCLvUeH4 in Meantone!
(I had not known before that Bach's authorship of this is disputed . . . )
Brahms chorale preludes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNCUbsqsiac

Many thanks to a brilliant young man who battled furiously with a painful injured right foot to perform and we hope people may enjoy the recordings.

Best wishes

David P

KB7DQH

 ;) So far I have downloaded and converted the Toccata and Fugue in d minor by whoever wrote it :o

and I have to say for starters it is one of the highest quality recordings made of the Beast on Youtube yet 8)

I have some questions as to who made what decisions registration-wise... The choices are very much in line with what I would expect from the likes of Joan Lippincott or Kimberly Marshall...

And serves to highlight the choice of temperament... by notconfusing the listener with a barrage of voices...  The comparatively dry acoustic and chosen tempo help out a bunch there also by allowing one to concentrate on the music as opposed to the sound...

Eric
KB7DQH


The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

David Pinnegar

Quote from: KB7DQH on March 08, 2011, 04:08:50 PM
;) So far I have downloaded and converted the Toccata and Fugue in d minor by whoever wrote it :o and I have to say for starters it is one of the highest quality recordings made of the Beast on Youtube yet 8)

I have some questions as to who made what decisions registration-wise... The choices are very much in line with what I would expect from the likes of Joan Lippincott or Kimberly Marshall...

And serves to highlight the choice of temperament... by notconfusing the listener with a barrage of voices...  The comparatively dry acoustic and chosen tempo help out a bunch there also by allowing one to concentrate on the music as opposed to the sound...

Dear Eric

Thanks - I have concentrated a lot on voicing and I have worked on the reverberation. But sadly as the microphones are directional they are picking up the reverberation only from the front rather than the fuller reverb at the rear. This can be sorted out by using both front and back sound at the microphones - but mics in the middle of an audience are not a good idea!

Registration - entirely the organist's. I'm being anonymous here as having an injured right foot but bravely enduring . . . he might not think his performance was of the best.

The temperament is interesting - Meantone worked so very well for the prelude but not the fugue that one wonders if one or the other indicates a different composer? One aspect of this instrument is to permit and encourage academic research by being able to try out different things, registration and temperament in particular.

In terms of being able to concentrate on the music rather than the sound, this is one reason why I prefer concerts here to St Paul's Cathedral in London, where the music is lost in mere tone colour - and some recordings on famous organs really suffer from this. The instrument is satisfying to play and listen to in real life but getting a recording right is a matter of experiment!

The final item of the concert was the Healey Willan Introduction Passacaglia and Fugue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Fl0dHpvVw . He intended to register it with a quiet 64ft at the beginning but I think I slipped up and it was omitted - but certainly I've heard it elsewhere in the concert recording . . . This was the item for which I had to ensure that the Tuba would come to life . . .

Best wishes

David P

revtonynewnham

Hi

I heard the discussion about the non-Bach (and non-organ) origins of the Dmin T&F many years ago.  IIRC, it was Prof. Peter Williams who first postulated that it (or the Toccata anyway) was an arrangement by Bach of a Toccata for solo violin in another key (I can't remember what - nor if the Fugue was included in his argument.)

The Toccata was fine in the mean-tone temperament, but the fugue really didn't work, to my ears anyway.

Every Blessing

Tony

David Pinnegar

Quote from: revtonynewnham on March 08, 2011, 08:06:19 PM
The Toccata was fine in the mean-tone temperament, but the fugue really didn't work, to my ears anyway.

Yes - likewise - painful! But interesting to do and record the experiment.  . . .

Best wishes

David P

KB7DQH

"Painful" ??? Maybe "under the weather" ??? A function of the temperament or absolute pitch?

Would a "fuller" registration overcome  or mask some of these perceptions?

I compared this against a recording of a performance on a Schnitger organ by Koopman... also on Youtube but I don't have the link handy...  Very different registration style and a much wetter acoustic and much faster tempo, and the pitch noticeably a semitone (or more) higher.  No idea of the temperament of the Schnitger organ in question... 

Now to download the St. Maximin T&F in Dm and tear and compare ;)

Thus begs the question:  Do the mechanisms in the Hammerwood Beast shift the absolute pitch with change in temperament much in the same manner as is done in  Hauptwerk based instruments?

Eric
KB7DQH



The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

David Pinnegar

Dear Eric

QuoteA function of the temperament or absolute pitch?

Very much the temperament going into a modulation which crosses with Meantone unpleasantly. This was really what started the revolution towards the Good Temperament encouraged by Bach in the writing of the Well Tempered Clavier

QuoteWould a "fuller" registration overcome  or mask some of these perceptions?

No. Purely a matter of temperament - it would sound equally dismal in whatever temperament

QuoteI compared this against a recording of a performance on a Schnitger organ by Koopman... also on Youtube but I don't have the link handy...  Very different registration style and a much wetter acoustic and much faster tempo, and the pitch noticeably a semitone (or more) higher.  No idea of the temperament of the Schnitger organ in question...

Some German organs were as high as A= 495 or so whilst St Maximin is at A=392

QuoteThus begs the question:  Do the mechanisms in the Hammerwood Beast shift the absolute pitch with change in temperament much in the same manner as is done in  Hauptwerk based instruments?

A is held at 440 and the temperament shifts everything around it. In the tuning world there are constant confusions depending on setting the scale from C or setting it from A. The Baroque sections of the instrument will also go to A=415

Organ pitch is so variable. One instrument of the 1920s I'm aware of is A=432 and the Hammerwood pipe organ is a quarter tone sharp. Many organs seem to be quarter tone sharp . . .

Best wishes

David P

KB7DQH

Hmmm.... More experimental possibilities....

Music "X" 1/11 (comma) meantone A=440   (which is what "equal" temperament "is")
    "            "Well"                                 "
    "           1/4(comma)         "               "

Do it all again in some other pitch.....

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."