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Minimum specification of small organ

Started by organforumadmin, April 17, 2010, 01:13:46 PM

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pcnd5584

Quote from: David Drinkell on February 03, 2015, 08:57:22 PM
The real killer seems to be if the rank supplying the quint is too loud, although other considerations have to be made, such as placement and acoustic.  Although by the laws of physics it's wrong, a better effect can sometimes be had by wiring the fourth below (i.e. 21 1/3) for the top seven notes of the bottom octave and the fifth above for the remaining five.  I see no point, in nearly all cases, in providing a 10 2/3 quint all the way up the board.

Indeed.

Just for the record, the Compton instrument in the North Transept of what used to be the Anglican Church of Saint Osmund, Parkstone, has a 'separate' 21 1/3ft. Sub Quint on the Pedal Organ. (The inverted commas are due to the fact that this stop - like several others - is actually derived from the Pedal Sub Bass which, in this case, surely merits the description 'overworked'.)

However, there is one example of an interesting variation on this theme: the Roger Yates rebuild of the organ in Kilkhampton Church, North Cornwall. In 1892, T.C. Lewis supplied a Sub Bass (32ft.), which is an extension of the Pedal Sub Bass (16ft.). This gives 32ft. tone down to G (in the lowest octave), then it is 'quinted' in fourths below the fundamental, for the lowest seven notes. Even in this dry acoustic (for what is not a particularly large church), this is one of the most effective 32ft. stops I have ever met.
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

David Drinkell

Extra rumble at Parkstone, I guess.  It had a reputation for producing a lot more than might be expected and was probably an ideal Anglo-Catholic organ, despite being all in one box.

The Resultant at Kilkhampton is certainly arresting, but I didn't feel it was a particularly convincing 32' - rather a very gripping big bass.  An exceptionally fine organ, all the same.

The worst resultant I know of is St. Patrick, Ballymacarrett, Belfast, which is an otherwise decent Evans & Barr 2m with the addition of a high-pressure reed at 16.8.4 to pulverise large congregations of shipyard workers into submission.  The open wood plays at 32' pitch as far as c12, but is quinted on itself for the whole compass.  It really doesn't work at all.  Even the aforesaid Mukkinese Battle Horn fails to disguise it.  The infuriating thing is that a little rewiring would make the whole effect palatable (as would wiring the Swell octave to work through the Swell to Great).

http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=D01426

londonorganist

Quote from: David Drinkell on February 03, 2015, 08:57:22 PM
I see no point, in nearly all cases, in providing a 10 2/3 quint all the way up the board.

It works, especially if voiced well and tuned pure. I play a 1991 Walker (III+P/40) with an independent pure quint rank all the way up and it really works in the acoustic, much better than a derived quint.

pcnd5584

Quote from: londonorganist on February 05, 2015, 12:43:03 AM
Quote from: David Drinkell on February 03, 2015, 08:57:22 PM
I see no point, in nearly all cases, in providing a 10 2/3 quint all the way up the board.

It works, especially if voiced well and tuned pure. I play a 1991 Walker (III+P/40) with an independent pure quint rank all the way up and it really works in the acoustic, much better than a derived quint.

Although I would agree with David - I think the point that he was making was that from the second octave up, it is surely better to have the Bourdon 'wired' at 32ft. pitch - with the quint in the lowest octave only. No doubt David will clarify the matter, if I have mis-understood his meaning.
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

David Drinkell

pcnd is right - the bourdon at 32' pitch with the 'acoustic' effect in the bottom octave only is the most likely to be successful.  One can draw the Open Wood at 16' pitch to beef it up anyway.

Binns used to produce some pretty hefty 32' resultant basses, but his stuff tended to be hefty anyway.  The effect on a relatively small instrument with a pedal consisting of 32, 16,8, all taken from a beefy bourdon, must surely have put the fear of God into many a northern heart.

pcnd5584

#105
Quote from: David Drinkell on February 06, 2015, 05:55:40 PM
pcnd is right - the bourdon at 32' pitch with the 'acoustic' effect in the bottom octave only is the most likely to be successful.  One can draw the Open Wood at 16' pitch to beef it up anyway.

Binns used to produce some pretty hefty 32' resultant basses, but his stuff tended to be hefty anyway.  The effect on a relatively small instrument with a pedal consisting of 32, 16,8, all taken from a beefy bourdon, must surely have put the fear of God into many a northern heart.

Ha!

I have just remembered an even weirder version of an acoustic 32ft. Pedal stop. It is on the two-clavier organ in Holsworthy Methodist Church, North Devon. It was last rebuilt by Geo. Osmond & Co., Taunton*, in 1953, but restored by Ray Greaves, of Plymouth, in 1976). The Pedal Organ consisted of the following five stops:

Acoustic Bass  32ft.
Open Diapason (W)  16ft. (Not huge scale.)
Bourdon  16ft.
Octave  (W+M; ext.)  8ft.
Bass Flute  (Ext.)  8ft.

The Acoustic Bass was 'wired' (pressure pneumatically speaking) as follows:

F30 down to C#26 - 16ft. pitch.
C25 to C#14 - Open Diapason, quinted on itself (16ft. + 10 2/3ft.)
C13 to C1 - also Open Diapason, quinted on itself (16ft. + 10 2/3ft.)

Presumably this was an error - even Osmonds would not have done this deliberately (surely?) -  but I think that I was the only person ever to notice.




* 'This organ has received our best attention to-day'....)

Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

David Wyld

Quote from: pcnd5584 on February 04, 2015, 06:14:25 PM

This gives 32ft. tone down to G (in the lowest octave), then it is 'quinted' in fourths below the fundamental, for the lowest seven notes. Even in this dry acoustic (for what is not a particularly large church), this is one of the most effective 32ft. stops I have ever met.[/font]


This was the standard HWIII treatment, which Roger Yates presumably picked up from him.

DW

David Drinkell

Yup - St. Magnus Cathedral has a 32' Sub Bass wired in this way, and very effective it is.  I didn't know it was standard Willis III, rather than IV, practice though.

Nicolette

#108
I think a Great Mixture would certainly have to be in the specification.   Since its renovation last year, our 29-stop Rushworth and Dreaper (Inverleith St. Serf's, Edinburgh) has been attracting acclaim for its beauty of tone and the church's beneficial acoustic.    The Great 8ft Flute and Tromba, Swell reeds and Stopped Diapason, and the Choir Clarinet add a lot of colour and versatility to the organ's strong foundation.   We also have a meaty 16ft fagotto and a helpful 32ft Acoustic Bass in the pedal department.   However, while there is a Mixture on the Swell, there isn't one on the Great.   The inclusion of a Great Mixture would, I feel, have made an already-versatile-and-attractive instrument even more so.
Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

pcnd5584

Quote from: Nicolette on February 11, 2015, 09:56:07 PM
I think a Great Mixture would certainly have to be in the specification.   Since its renovation last year, our 29-stop Rushworth and Dreaper (Inverleith St. Serf's, Edinburgh) has been attracting acclaim for its beauty of tone and the church's beneficial acoustic.    The Great 8ft Flute and Tromba, Swell reeds and Stopped Diapason, and the Choir Clarinet add a lot of colour and versatility to the organ's strong foundation.   We also have a meaty 16ft fagotto and a helpful 32ft Acoustic Bass in the pedal department.   However, while there is a Mixture on the Swell, there isn't one on the Great.   The inclusion of a Great Mixture would, I feel, have made an already-versatile-and-attractive instrument even more so.

Granted - although the instrument you mention is somewhat larger than the parameters for this thread.

Out of interest, what is the stop-list for your G.O., please? (I wondered if there was anything which could be ditched - preferably near the tuner's passage-board - in order to accommodate a compound stop?)
Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

David Pinnegar

The other day I was most intrigued at St John's Broadbridge Heath near Horsham http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=A00427

This is an extension instrument by Mander of 1962 with just 2 main ranks - a Stopped and a Gamba with different derivatives on each on the two manuals and it gave a good account of itself. Needing next to no maintenance it's done extremely well for over half a century and has been very good value both musically and economically.

Not an instrument for purists, but most effective.

(1)
Spitz Gamba   8   
Stopped Diapason   8   
Flute   4   
Twelfth   2 2/3   
Nineteenth   1 1/3   
Twentysecond   1

(2)
Spitz Gamba   8   
Stopped Diapason   8   
Gemshorn   4   
Flute   4   
Nazard   2 2/3   
Piccolo   2   
Larigot   1 1/3   

Bourdon on pedals

To criticise it at all, with the flutish harmonics on (2) it can sound a little like a Hammond

Best wishes

David P

Nicolette

Quote from: pcnd5584 on February 12, 2015, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: Nicolette on February 11, 2015, 09:56:07 PM
I think a Great Mixture would certainly have to be in the specification.   Since its renovation last year, our 29-stop Rushworth and Dreaper (Inverleith St. Serf's, Edinburgh) has been attracting acclaim for its beauty of tone and the church's beneficial acoustic.    The Great 8ft Flute and Tromba, Swell reeds and Stopped Diapason, and the Choir Clarinet add a lot of colour and versatility to the organ's strong foundation.   We also have a meaty 16ft fagotto and a helpful 32ft Acoustic Bass in the pedal department.   However, while there is a Mixture on the Swell, there isn't one on the Great.   The inclusion of a Great Mixture would, I feel, have made an already-versatile-and-attractive instrument even more so.

Granted - although the instrument you mention is somewhat larger than the parameters for this thread.

Out of interest, what is the stop-list for your G.O., please? (I wondered if there was anything which could be ditched - preferably near the tuner's passage-board - in order to accommodate a compound stop?)


I know, our instrument isn't all that small, although it's under 30 and the smallest of three by R. and D. in Scotland.   

I have actually been thinking about the G.O. and what (in an ideal world) a mixture might replace.

The stoplist is:
Bourdon                        16      
Open Diapason 1        8   
Open Diapason  11       8      
Salicional                        8      
Claribel Flute                8      
Tromba                         8   
Wald Flute                   4   
Octave                         4         
Fifteenth                       2

Probably, if anything, the salicional, but this would have to be a pipe dream (sorry!) for the future.   I can dream!
Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

David Drinkell

Broadbridge Heath - Reminds me somewhat of the nice little Mander extension organ that used to be in St. Anne & St. Agnes, Gresham Street, City of London, and now at Bruern Abbey School, Oxfordshire.  Very effective and exciting.

St. Serf - the trouble with adding a Great Mixture to a chorus not intended to carry one is that it may tend to upset the whole balance of the instrument.  The mixture at St. Serf's is in the Swell, from whence it can be coupled to the Great, and that is how the instrument was conceived.  You might find transposing the 4' flute to 2 2/3' worth trying.  I know of a number of instruments where this has been done, sometimes with considerable success.

Nicolette

Thanks David -  I'll have to keep this in mind for the future, but it sounds like an interesting option.
Nicolette
Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

pcnd5584

Quote from: Nicolette on February 13, 2015, 08:27:02 PM
Thanks David -  I'll have to keep this in mind for the future, but it sounds like an interesting option.
Nicolette

David makes a good point regarding the Mixture. However, I must admit that I should be loath to lose a 4ft. Flute, in order to have a quasi-Nazard effect; particularly since, in the absence of a correctly-scaled Tierce, a Nazard needs a 4ft. Flute (in addition to the 8ft.), in order to be really effective. Since both flutes are probably fairly romantic in their voicing, you may be better leaving well alone - and, as David suggests, simply coupling the Swell Mixture down.

I would guess that the overall sound of the instrument could be described as 'full-toned', given the stop-list, the builders and the vintage. Not that there is anything wrong with this; however, as David suggests, the introduction of a compound stop is likely to upset the tonal balance. It may be a question of playing music which suits this particular instrument and not trying to make it do something for which it was not designed. My 'own' church instrument is not particularly good at Elgar or any Edwardian music which needs the type of sound quality which your instrument probably possesses in abundance. Therefore, despite my admiration for the first and fourth movements of Elgar's sonata, I tend to avoid playing it.

Out of interest, is the Tromba also playable on the Choir Organ?

Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

David Drinkell

#115
I know of a few examples where the flute has been transposed, in my opinion, not to the instrument's advantage - the wonderful Binns at Old Independent, Haverhill, Suffolk was one - but sometimes the gain definitely outweighs the loss.  Wivenhoe Parish Church, Essex comes to mind, somewhat surprisingly because this is a fairly bold old Walker and one would imagine that the 4' flute would be missed.  In fact, this is not the case (I've known this organ for over forty-five years, having played for a lot of weddings in my early teens so that the organist could play cricket with my father - he's still the organist today).  If the specification is studied, it will be seen that there have been significant alterations, but the effect has been to make it sound more like an old Walker than it did originally!  Incidentally, one can get a lovely celeste by half-drawing the Swell Open with the Stopped Diapason, so even that wasn't a loss.

A lot of Twelfths tended to be flutey - Harrisons' were - and actually work rather well in chorus.

http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N08706

I realise that you have played this organ and I have not. However, I wonder if some brightness (and perhaps an enhanced ability to lead full congregations) has been gained - but at the expense of colour. With regard to the Swell, I should not willingly have parted with the Echo Gamba and the Céleste - particularly for a 12-15 Mixture (I should have preferred 15-19-22, even if it had to be one or two ranks only in the bass). In addition, with the Nazard effect on the G.O., i would not want another twelfth on the Swell, in an instrument of this size. I can appreciate how the Nazard has coloured the G.O., but I would be inclined to reverse the alterations to the Swell Organ. In preference, I might have opted for a 19-22 Mixture on the G.O., and kept the Swell strings; if they were old Walker ranks, they were probably gorgeous.

I am only too well aware of the pitfalls of commenting on an instrument which one has neither heard nor played; however, whilst I was still at school, I was organist at a church with an even smaller instrument, which had the following un-enterprising stop-list (and mechanical action to everything except the Pedal organ):

PEDAL ORGAN

Bourdon  16
Bass Flute  (Ext.)  8
Great to Pedal
Swell to Pedal


GREAT ORGAN

Open Diapason  8
Claribel Flute  8
Dulciana  8
Principal  4
Swell to Great

SWELL ORGAN

Violin Diapason  8
Salicional  8
Voix Céleste  (C13)  8
Gemshorn (parallel and slotted)  4
Oboe  8

In 1982, it became necessary to clean and restore the instrument, and so I had our organ builder reconstruct it to the following scheme:

PEDAL ORGAN

Bourdon  16
Flute  (Ext.)  8
Stopped Flute  (Ext.)  4
Great to Pedal
Swell to Pedal


GREAT ORGAN
Open Diapason  8
Stopped Diapason  8  (New)
Principal  4  (Revoiced)
Fifteenth  2  ()New - bright and strong)
Swell to Great

SWELL ORGAN

Open Diapason  8
Salicional  8
Voix Céleste  (C13)  8
Gemshorn  (Stronger)
Oboe  8  (Opened-up)

At the time, I vetoed a further suggestion to replace the Oboe with a small Trumpet, since it would have cost another £500, and I did not wish our congregation to have too great a cost to bear. In retrospect, I think that they wouuld have borne the extra cost gladly - and It would have made the instrument perfect for its size.

Nicolette

#116
For the foreseeable future, we'll have to stick with what we've got and suit the music to the instrument.   It is versatile and the Great is full-toned. 
I often play music from the French romantic/late romantic repertoire, coupling full swell to the great where required, which gets the desired effect.  Thanks for the advice and thoughts on the matter!
Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

David Drinkell

pcnd's reply has been added on to my posting. I concluded with the NPOR reference and pcnd commenced with 'I realise that....'

I would, in some cases, agree with you regarding the Swell strings.  Walker's strings could be gorgeous (and these were a good pair), but here I don't think any colour has been lost.  The Swell Open has more than a touch of velvet to it and the box is effective, so you have a warm, quiet voice there.  Since by a lucky chance, the half-draw on the Open produces an excellent celeste (a ploy which doesn't work on all organs - I tried it on the 1905 Forster & Andrews on Fogo Island here in Newfoundland last year without success), an effect which should have been lost has in fact been saved.  If the organ had been a little older, it might not have had the strings in the first place (cf Romsey Abbey), so the result is arguably more 'old Walker' than the original!  I don't know of another similar-sized Walker where the Swell consists solely of 8' stops plus octave coupler.

The pipework for the Gemshorn and Mixture came from an organ in Manchester and are thought to be by Hardy of Stockport.  They are, however, very well suited to the organ and excellently finished, as Arnold, Williamson & Hyatt's work always as.  Although it might have been preferable for the Mixture to commence at 15.19.22, they had to work with what was available, and possibly existing space on the soundboard.  The octave coupler is still there, and useful within the limits of a 56 note compass.  A three rank mixture on a Walker of this date would have broken back to 8.12.15 at middle C anyway, so the only difference would have been in the bass and tenor.

Although we all know that altering old organs can be a risky business,  I am convinced that in this case nothing has been lost and a good deal gained.  I was invited back a few years ago to give a recital celebrating the organ's 125th birthday and I didn't feel constrained by its small size.  Incidentally, in 1885, it was opened by T. Tertius Noble, who was at the time organist at All Saints, Colchester, where they had a very similar but larger Walker installed the previous year (now at St. Andrew's, Greenstead, Colchester), so I played a couple of his pieces in 2010.  I would have expected to miss the 4' Flute on the Great, but I didn't.

It was always a good organ.  I think it's even better now.

Ian van Deurne

Of course, without looking at and hearing the instrument, any suggestions can only be purely speculative but I would definately lose one of the doubled Diapason 8' ranks. Why there seems to be such a predilection for this in England I have never been able to understand. The original reason for doubling the 8' foundation stop was because the most of the organs in England stood on a screen between the choir and the nave so a secondary facade was needed to face the other way.
       The other option is of course replacing the Salicional, but often on a two-manual organ such a stop on the Great can be very useful for accompaniment purposes. There again, with a four-rank quint mixture replacing one of those Diapasons, then you might be able to consider replacing that with either a Quint or a Nasard at 2.2/3 as well. Then with the rest of the chorus correctly re-intonated to blend with these alterations (definately not forgetting the reed in this), then there is no reason why the realization of music from the French romantic period could not be greatly enhanced by such a scheme.

Best of luck with it!

Ian 

Benjamin Daniel

In the early 90s I attended two or three weekends for young organists at Addington Palace.  The following organ was at that time located in the chapel: http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=R01719

It is the most delightful small organ I have had the pleasure of playing, with a seemingly endless variety of colours possible from the small stop list.  The 16 ft Oboe on the swell and the novelty of a Great to Swell coupler are particular features which have always stuck in my mind.  The pneumatic action was extremely prompt.

I remember feeling extremely lucky indeed on those occasions when I found it wasn't already being used by someone else for practice!