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Ruggedized construction techniques for a transportable concert pipe organ?

Started by KB7DQH, April 18, 2010, 10:16:37 AM

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KB7DQH

Elsewhere the subject of transportable organs has come up, and I thought a new topic was in order...

A few questions to warm the gray-matter among those of you lurking in the shadows who build pipe organs...

Could using exotic, "space-age" high-tech (I know, I know... high co$t!) materials and construction techniques be used to enhance the durability of key components employed in pipe organs which will be by their very nature "physically abused" in the course of everyday use?

How big is too big? Conversely, How small is too small?  Could the pipework be constructed in "block" formations and "folded" to reduce space without suffering in the Tonal Quality department?
Here I am thinking of getting at least one, maybe more, 32' pitch ranks as part of the specification through a stadium utility entrance, and still be transportable in ISO containers...

Like any project, it starts with an idea...

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

revtonynewnham

Hi

I would consider Compton style polyphones for the flue basses - much smaller than genuine pipes - or possibly digital equivalents (although then there's the problem of reproducing such low frequencies at adequate power.

The two problems that I see are:-
1) weight - normal flue pipes are a tin/lead mix - and we all know how heavy lead is!  Pipes have been made of other materials - but voicing can then be an issue.  Terry Shires (organ pipemaker of Leeds, UK) has experimentally made an aluminium pipe (as a precaution should the EU ban on lead was applied to new pipe organs).  I've seen one, but he says that costs are higher (you can't solder aluminium in the same way as pipe metal) - and his estimated costs were higher than for conventional pipework.

2) keeping pipes located properly.  I don't know about making pipes as blocks - the length variation and need for tuning adjustment might be poblematic (although Cone tunes organ pipes will stand in tune for years on end, so maybe that's the way to go).  Otherwise, the organ will need tuning before every concert - no small job!  Maybe some investigation into the construction of "box organs" would help with this design aspect.


No doubt other ideas will surface - it's certainly an interesting topic.

Every Blessing

Tony

KB7DQH

An example of "block" construction can be found herehttp://www.rwgiangiulio.com/ ;)

Look for the documents concerning his Opus 2 continuo,  and "scale up" the pipework for 32 foot pitch.  Now fabricate these out of a super strong, moisture-resistant lightweight material... say foam-core carbon fiber, that is as long as the material isn't especially prone to expansion/shrinkage with extremes in temperature...  As it is used now extensively in the latest  aircraft designs (for which this material is being used to replace aluminum) it shows promise. 

Building the pipework in "unit blocks" as was done with that portable organ would certainly help with support...   Use of "wind conduction tubes" to separate windchest from pipework depending on configuration would add some flexibility to the packaging, and for the largest and heaviest of pipes the requirement of the chest (which is really nothing more than a distribution manifold full of valves) to support said pipework.

Aluminum is an interesting animal!  Joining pieces together with something other than an adhesive
requires an Oxygen-free environment... careful cleaning of pieces to be joined, etc... regardless of the method used.  Much stuff is mass-produced that requires complex fabrication but voicing organ pipes is a whole different can of worms...

One possible advantage in the pipe department is that Aluminum is already manufactured in a variety of diameters, lengths, thicknesses,  and alloys so much of the fabrication involving lead alloys would not be required, just  pull the stock and cut to the desired length.

Copper might offer  an alternative for the "mouth" portion of flue pipes, the rest could be done in Aluminum provided one joins the assembly carefully.  Maybe a zinc dust epoxy compound? Reinforce with a carbon-fiber woven tape?

Cone tuning?  I guess  I would  have to see an example?  I am imagining a cone placed with the pointed end facing into the pipe in question, fixed into position with a mechanism that would allow changing the distance between cone and end of pipe? Does inserting the cone raise or lower the resonant frequency of the pipe? (If "insertion" raises frequency this may explain its long-term reliability-- pipe gets longer and closer to the cone so "self-corrects" if warming, opposite if cooling) 

If so this opens up an interesting and fascinating possibility!  A variable-temperament organ 8)  Complete with the ability to tune from the console 8) 8) 8)  Using small stepper motors and digital control, once "initialized" this device would permit
changing the temperament at will... although one would have to wait while things adjusted themselves 8)

Now... The Quest for a "better" reed!  Wonder how an appropriate alloy of stainless steel would work...

See how much fun this is???

Eric

The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

David Pinnegar

Dear Eric

When I first saw this topic, to be honest, I thought that you were completely mad. But that is the mark of genius and in discussion it's becoming apparent that this is not at all such a daft idea. If people tell you you are mad, then certainly it means that you have had ideas for which others have not had the imagination . . . and thereby is the key to a headlong start to commercial success.

I have been working similarly on compressing outrageous loudspeaker designs into a small space and lightweight materials for use with Hauptwerk travelling chamber organs - but your thoughts could certainly lead to doing something with real moving air.

Modern laser cutting means that one could certainly manufacture a series of slices which when put together would make possible a complex internal structure. Alternatively perhaps one might work out the size of a giant ocarina . . .

However, whether one likes it or not, an organ of this scale would have to be carted around  by a couple of lorries and powered by significant tens of kilowatts of blowers . . . which must make the concept of portability slightly limited . . . ?

Best wishes

David P

revtonynewnham

Hi

Cone tuning was the only method of adjusting pitch on most metal flue pipes prior to the intrpoduction of tuning slides.  In principle, the pipe is cut to near exact lenght, and the top adjusted with a metal cone - these have a pointed end to open out the top of the pipe and a hollow end to close the top in.  Cone tuning developed a bad name in the earlier part of this century because heavy-handed use of the cones can (and does) damage the pipe foot.  I'm told by an organ builder friend that if a cone tuned pipe goes off pitch, it's normally due to dust in the windway - and the appliation of a small brush is often all that is needed.

I doubt that aluminium tube is available in the range of sizes needed to produce a properly scaled rank of organ pipes.  Maybe an aproach to a pipe maker would be an idea if this potential project is to become a reality.  The issues of voicing and tuning are vital to the success of any pipe organ!

I know who built Rick Wakeman's travelling organ - but I gather that they don't mention the instrument these days.  The only details I have is a couple of pictures of the exterior and console, and the stop list.

Maybe the Moeller company's archives will have detail of the Foorte touring organ - that is a fair sized beast (and still exists, although it hasn't been in "touring" guise for 70 years or so,

Every Blessing

Tony

KB7DQH

Lots of ground to cover here... but I will address a couple of items...  Sounds like traditional cone tuning involves flaring or de-flaring the end of a pipe to "permanently" place it into tune, the cone essentially a tuning tool rather than a permanent fixture.  Hmmm... Gonna have to "think on" that a bit...

My other "avocation" is amateur radio, the most important part of a station being the antenna...
the one component of a station one can for the most part put together with basic hand and power tools and "common" components found in the local hardware store.  But so few amateur radio operators choose to spend the time doing this, instead purchasing at great expense manufactured equivalents.  I on the other hand have salvaged much aluminum tubing from disused manufactured examples and occasionally find raw material available at local industrial salvage yards, and until recently,  Boeing Company's surplus yard... and build my own.

  My personal collection has diameters as small as 8mm,
to as large as 100,  in lengths up to 3 meters, in a number of wall thicknesses, and most sizes have outside diameters which friction-fit into the inside diameter of the next. And I know other sizes are available without the necessity of custom manufacturing.  Especially when you get into the realm of irrigation plumbing then lengths and diameters get progressively larger and longer...

Unfortunately the M. P. Moeller Co. was dismemberd nearly 20 years ago, everything sold at auction.  Including components of organs not yet completed or delivered to the customers who ordered them... Sad.  Someone, somewhere may have the documentation...

David-- as far as being "completely mad" you are not the first person I have run across who has made that observation!  I have been correctly accused of  "thinking outside the box"... sometimes way out...
the results of which have been recognized by individuals as important as NASA's Director for the Interplanetary Network Directorate, William J. Weber... in a banquet presentation given at an internationally recognized gathering of microwave amateur radio enthusiasts which I attended.

Back to boxes and their size... Yes, a large-spec concert organ, e.g. C.B.  Fisk Op. 114 http://www.gothic-catalog.com/Seattle_WA_Benaroya_Hall_Fisk_organ_s/882.htmwould certainly even with compact design and construction fill a few 40 foot ISO containers, and draw a bit off the mains!  Even with electronic extensions one would likely require a similar volume of speaker cabinets and likely more power dissipated in the power amplifiers, but this would likely be required by amplified guitars and the like anyway...  Something like a 4/14 Wurlitzer spec (without the percussion and effects)  could be effectively  employed in all but the largest of sports venues I would think... and be compact enough
within our design criteria to need only two such containers to transport, and be built of modular units which could conveniently fit through the "stage doors" of smaller venues.

One of the more interesting concert venues here locally is the Gorge Amphitheater,  which I have not yet visited as most of the concerts given there are musically not to my taste and the facility is a casual half-day's drive from here.  But the "hypothetical transportable concert real pipe organ"
could pay a visit and play to a fairly large crowd in a decent acoustical environment, and survive to do it over again somewhere else...

Once Moeller op. 5819 gets installed this project could give the students at Oklahoma University something to think about...

Eric
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

organforumadmin

Dear Eric

Yes - I'm wholly with you in making up devices out of obtainable materials rather than simply for paying for the "name" of a manufactured object . . . and when people apply the adjective "mad" to myself, I take it as a great compliment. Microwaves and acoustics have waveguides in common . . . and many people do not expand thoughts sideways as the 18th century polymaths quite rightly did . . .

I think that there was a travelling organ of the sort you intend built in the 1920s which filled two lorries. I'll try to find details in due course. This sort of project is so worthwhile in bringing the organ to the people . . .

Best wishes

David P

David Pinnegar

Dear Eric

Below is a brilliant solution  . . . lightweight and non-valuable materials immune to vandalisation for the value of the metal. Unfortunately some time ago I lost the contact details of the man who made this home instrument and the church instrument for a church, I believe, in the Czech Republic. He used standard drain pipes and all sorts of other domestic materials.





Best wishes

David P

KB7DQH

 ;D  8) 8) 8) ;D  Having seen, now I would like to hear ;)   as they are both beautiful to look at.  I imagine they sound as good as they look?   Wouldn't need to reinforce the floor for either of those instruments either ;D ;D ;D   and no worries about denting the pipework, although if left exposed to direct sunlight the white PVC tends to become brittle,  but most instruments of this type generally don't get left out in the yard for very long... and the UV weakening takes years under these conditions.  At least you found the pictures 8) 8) 8)

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

dragonser

Hi,
I was looking for some thing not related to portable Organs and I found the following web site.
http://www.hey-orgelbau.de/en/organbuilding_projects/mobileorgan.htm

I notice that the mixture stop, a Sesquialter  11  , uses a 2ft and 2 /2/3 ft combination of pipes.
I just wondered if that was unusual ?

regards Peter B

David Pinnegar

Quote from: dragonser on June 21, 2010, 06:30:02 PM

I notice that the mixture stop, a Sesquialter  11  , uses a 2ft and 2 /2/3 ft combination of pipes.
I just wondered if that was unusual ?

Hi!

Yes - they've probably taken the Tierce down to 2ft because they didn't like the screaming Tierce in equal temperament. A sesqui alter - literally a high sixth should be a Nazard (12th) and a Tierce (17th wherease this is simply the 12th and 15th.

Best wishes

David P

KB7DQH

Those watching this topic should pay attention to this interview...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/albert-imperato/cameron-carpenter----taki_b_623591.html

So with a budget of $2Million, could a pair of matching instruments be created without the limitations
traditionally associated with "real" pipework?

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

KB7DQH

Although there isn't a whole lot of technical information, still an intriguing article describing the history of the Foorte touring pipe organ...

http://www.atos.org/Pages/Journal/FoortMoller/FoortMoller.html

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

dragonser

Hi,
well there is a photo of a Touring Organ built in the 1990's here. ( and also pictures of many other Organs )
http://www.die-orgelseite.de/kurioses_e.htm

sorry if this has been posted here already

regards Peter B

revtonynewnham

Hi

An interesting site.  Organs in a truck or trailer are quite common in the mechanical organ world (fairground organs and the like).  However, the idea could limit available venues - not every auditorium has drive-in access for large vehicles, so something demountable, or in more easily handled modules might be the better approach.

Every Blessing

Tony

KB7DQH

 8)Fascinating... the whole site...  8)  Thank you Peter for providing the link...

In addition to the "truck-mounted" organ the three instruments which move about in their building on air cushions I had no idea existed...

Or the "reversible" organ...

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

KB7DQH

This organ was built for the Sistine Chapel... A prime requirement was that the organ be movable...

http://www.mathis-orgelbau.ch/organ/htm/sixt.htm

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

revtonynewnham

Hi

Jean Guillou's concept of a Variable Structure Organ is another interesting transportable concept - see http://osvguillou.pagesperso-orange.fr/en/osv_en.htm  According to the latest "Choir & Organ" Magazine, there is a company that has worked through the technical design issues and would be able to build it if funds are made available.

Every Blessing

Tony

KB7DQH

This concept certainly has merit 8) 8) 8) lots of merit...  Although the website you have linked to is a bit
scant on the technical details  I can imagine that at some point that the "control system" should be
"standardized" so "anyone" could stick together one or more "structures" which would be compatible with theirs and could provide additional resources or be used separately...

Another one of my interests besides Amateur Radio has been railroads-- model and the "real thing"... Diesel-Electric engines became practical specifically because there was a standard system for connecting several together to make as much power as you needed and all of the "units" controlled from a single cab (with a single crew) overcoming just one of the many disadvantages of Steam power...

What I find so intriguing about the "variable structure" concept is that one only needs to procure the "divisions" required for the repetoire that one is performing at any particular event assuming one is performing music from a specific composer/era...  If your performance "covers lots of ground"
then one adjusts the instrument's capabilities accordingly. 

The "funds availability" always seems to be the major "sticking point" in these endeavors :-\ :( :'(

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."