Our Father in Heaven

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

Periodically I have serious doubts about the literal interpretation of the Bible.


I find it difficult to understand the brain

as any more than a biological computer.

So what is the Bible about? What is religion about?

The more I look the more I find that perhaps the capability of the Bible to cause arguments among those who want it to be a perfectly straightforward literal interpretation is what seperates the base earthlings from the spiritual and godly . . .

Son of God? Well Jesus does not have to be the _physical_ son of God. But he can be the son of God in spirit without the slightest difficulty or credulity. We are all urged to be sons and daughters of God.

Died on the Cross and rose again from the dead? Well he does not have to have done so in body. The Easter story is one of getting us to die to the material world and to be uplifted and rise with Christ above the Earthly realm of base material animal things.

In the British Museum among the Mildenhall Treasure is a most wonderful plate, from memory dating to around 400 or 600AD. It carries symbolism common to the Borghese Vase.


In the centre, we see depicted the fiery Sun god, the Light of the World, traditionally represented by Apollo, the symbol of light, the creator and destroyer, the All Powerful, and patron of music and the arts.

Associated with Apollo was Dionysus, who looked after his temple for half of the year. There is an old saying known to my Grandmother and many of her generation that "The Gods look after Children and Drunken Men"

On the Mildenhall Plate we see the drunken man, Selinus, being bodily obstructed from falling over by a satyr and one of the Gods, probably Dionysus, as a spiritual disembodied being and identified by a star on his shoulder, rescuing the drunken man from above.


This symbolism on the plate was common to the symbolism of the Borghese vase of at least 400-600 years before and well established therefore in thought and worship of Dionysus. Dionysus has his parallels in terms of resurrection and as the harvest god, overseeing agriculture.

But to the Initiate, the image that we see above would have been symbolic of the ability of the spirit of Dionysus to rescue the man drunken in base earthly thoughts . . . and it is in this way that the experience of the Garden of Gethsemane requires us to rise with Christ above the base earthly world, motives and desires, in which all dies with physical mortality.



As a resident of modern times in which quantum physics is known, we are aware that there are many more dimensions than that which we perceive as an ordinary experience. Some say 10 whilst other theories 12.

Time may be an illusion - it may be simply a measure of a sequence of events rather than a dimension with any reality.

This means that the afterlife has no meaning in another time. We may exist in the afterlife simultaneously within this material life, just as electrons can exist in two places at once.

We know that God is not a person, but we often refer to God in terms of the Mind of God. No doubt the Mind of God has been proved to many of us time and time again when just the right person turns up in our lives at just the right time for some purpose.

Believing in God is an extraordinary phenonomen. It's free and we don't have to pay for it  :) and it's like joining a giant club . . . and exclusive club too . . .  8) made up of members who simply "understand".  This means that when the right person turns up, they will know what they need to do and are required to do and they do it. It's in this way that the power of light is so much more powerful than the darkness because the people working for the light do what is required whereas the darkness and people in darkness simply do not understand.

So where is Our Father in Heaven?

Well our Father, God, is the Creator, the Creation Force, the All Powerful, the Invisible, and the everywhere around us. Our Father therefore knows the dimensions of which we do not know but which Quantum Physics tells us exist, and in those dimensions there are factors and influences that influence us in the three or four dimensions of which we are aware.

We all have the Creator Force within us and especially so if we are spiritually sons and daughters of god, as Jesus wants all to be.

We all have part of our Fathers in us.

So where is Heaven?

Heaven is no place else. It's within us. It's a place within our hearts. It's a state of mind. It's the "stargate", if you want, into those other dimensions of the state of being in the fullness of life.

By creating Heaven within us, we can start to create Heaven around us - "thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven".

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi David

Some interesting thoughts.  I partly agree - for the Christian believer, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (see John 14, etc) does mean that God (in the person of the Holy Spirit) is within us - and to that extent, we are part of heaven.  One of Graham Kendrick's songs says "Heaven is in my heart" (not that that's a theological basis for any argument - just an observation!).  The situation with non-Christians isn't so clear cut - but since God created us with conscience, etc, then I suppose God is present in some, perhaps limited, way.

However, the Bible does talk about "heaven" as another place - a place where God rules supreme, and there is no more death or sorrow and so on.  As to where that is, there's no answer in physical terms - it's outside of the known universe - or maybe just on a different plane.

The phrase in the Lord's prayer, I belive, has a two-fold meaning:-
1. a prayer that we will let the indwelling Spirit guide and prompt us to live as God would have us live.
2) A prayer for the Second Coming of Jesus.

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

Some interesting thoughts.  I partly agree - for the Christian believer, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (see John 14, etc) does mean that God (in the person of the Holy Spirit) is within us - and to that extent, we are part of heaven.  One of Graham Kendrick's songs says "Heaven is in my heart" (not that that's a theological basis for any argument - just an observation!). 

. . .

However, the Bible does talk about "heaven" as another place - a place where God rules supreme, and there is no more death or sorrow and so on.  As to where that is, there's no answer in physical terms - it's outside of the known universe - or maybe just on a different plane.

The phrase in the Lord's prayer, I belive, has a two-fold meaning:-
1. a prayer that we will let the indwelling Spirit guide and prompt us to live as God would have us live.
2) A prayer for the Second Coming of Jesus.

Dear Tony

I hoped to be usefully provocative and perhaps a quantum view of space time enables heaven to be at this time in another place (dimension) in this space, the three dimensions of which we are aware directly.

Some would say that this predisposes us to the God-thought as an illusion but in reality it is the window to being in harmony within the creation process - from the moment of the Big Bang according to the laws of the universe - in the dimensions of which we cannot be aware directly.

To those to whom quantum physics has not been revealed, then the bible story as a linear narrative in time and space is as near to a reality of description as can be achieved but to those to whom the linear assumptions cause objections, the multi dimensional explanation may be a valid description of reality.

Graham Kendrick . . . the "Jesus loves YOU" might be a useful Alpha Course technique or adequate for Sunday School children, but the selfish perspective is contrary to the spirit. It may be a useful psychological technique to help people with depression but thereafter the ego and its imposition upon the frame is the biggest obstruction to harmonisation which is described as God.

I have great difficulty with the reconciliation of the biological computer explanation of the brain with the reported and reliable story of the boy in India who knew all about another family with whom he had been in a previous life and had died suddenly. Whilst Alice Bailey had no difficulty in reconciling Christianity with Buddhism, there are CofE priests who evaporate in holy smoke at the any suggestion of the reality of reincarnation.

It's for these reasons that those of us who consider ourselves to be part of the enlightened scientific process of thought have good reason find confusion. I hope it's helpful to voice some of these ambivalences.

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi David

In Kendrick's defence, some of his songs are pretty deep theologically - certainly not the simplistic "God is love".   And "Jesus loves YOU" is Biblically correct - "greater love has no man than he lay down his life for his friends.  I call you my friends.   ..." (Jesus)  However, it's only a small part of the relationship between the believer and God - a starting point, and something to hold on to when things get tough - but, as you rightly say, there's far more to Christianity that that.

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

Tony - yes - the literal meaning is there as an initial introduction but I wonder if there is not some more symbolic interpretation.

Happy Ascension Day!

Everyone else - I hoped that these posts might be controversial enough to generate some lively discussion - either they're so off the map that no-one thinks them worthy of comment or they're simply irrelevant to belief in the modern age or they're simply not controversial enough . . .

If not the latter two, do I need to ask Forum Admin to create a Faith Corner or a Believers' Corner? Is there a point in that? Do we not all have thoughts on a spectrum of doubt?

I get the feeling that faith is a matter a bit like organs nowadays, neither seeming to get much of a look-in into everyday modern people's lives . . .

But it has an important contribution to make. There are many people for whom a lack of understanding has broken their lives in the apparent material world and often they are given the opportunity of escape from Sodom and Gomorrah but yet get turned into a pillar of salt because they look back.

That Pillar of Salt, of course is not necessarily a literal statue of rock salt - but we have all met people who are metaphorically stiff, bitter as salt about their past and can't move a step into their future new life as a result.

How many have got stuck on the requirement of the Bible to be historically accurate? Provable? Did it happen? Does it matter? As the Iliad was to the ancient Greeks, the Bible is a story of how to live. Gems lie therein. What does it matter if it is symbolic rather than historic?

It's for that reason that it's as important to talk about belief or unbelief as it's important to talk about organs, for if either are relevant to our lives, both are worth making a noise about.

What is the difference between a Town man and a Country man? The Town man is Clever. The Country man is Wise.

I wonder if our approach to the Bible has been one of being too clever, and too clever by half, so sharp that we cut ourselves, rather than understanding it as the literature of the wise?

If we accept the wisdom as wisdom passed down to us by many generations of our forebears why do we have to have doubt as to historical accuracy when in fact the symbolic understanding of the wisdom makes the cleverness of doubt irrelevant?

Is this forum unique in ENCOURAGING ENTHUSIASM? Encouraging people to talk and champion their passions? Is this forum unique in not merely permitting but encouraging discussion of faith in a secular place?

Best wishes

David P

[Holditch]

Dear David

Very interesting discussions indeed!

Firstly I would like to say that for some people, myself included, it is sometimes quite difficult to express ones feelings, understandings and beliefs in a manner for another that is easy to read, understand and digest. Writing down an explanation of ones opinions can also be very difficult

Your discussions exhibit to me how wide ranging the scope of belief of Christianity can be and has become. It also confuses me about where your beliefs as a Christian start and finish? Surely the Bible is a literal text based book, based on events that happened in the past, a series of physical events starting from the dawn of time to life/death of Jesus?  Is it correct to try and turn this into some form of theoretical symbolism?

In my mind, I quite readily accept that there could have been a man named Jesus who existed long ago. He was the sort of person that you would want to show you the way, how to live your life, to respect and sacrifice things for other people; he seemed to be a totally nice bloke, and in sacrificing his life it seemed like the ultimate gift to others (excellent!)

If we go back in time in the bible, to the dawn of creation then I cannot accept that the universe/earth was created in 7 days. So is this part of the bible symbolism and not some form of the fact of the story? Centuries ago, we may have accepted this as being fact, but through the exploration and ingenuity of mankind we now know we are not the only planet in our vast universe. Did it take God 7 days to make all planets, and why aren't the other trillions of star systems/planets mentioned in any form of depth? (I accept that the writings of the Bible were man made and this understanding didn't exist then, but surely if there basis of the bible is from god then further mention of the real world outside the tiny boundaries of our own planet should have been talked about?)

I could spend a lot of time trying to pick out parts of bible that are not literal fact and are purely symbolic, but that would be futile.

You talk about people rejecting Christianity; well possibly it is because the definition is becoming more and more confusing?

You are also correct that the majority of people choose not to spend time thinking about religion and an afterlife, it is not in my belief because they are evil and don't care for other people, but it is because of the confusion of religion and the number of different opinions that exist. What is God, who is god, man, mouse, machine, gas, plasma, none of the above??

My major "bug bare" about Christianity (and I have tried to accept/jump in etc over the last 40 years of my life) is that you all have this claim to understanding about love and how to treat one another. This however does exist between millions/billions of people who don't believe in Christ. They understand about sacrifice/ forgiveness/ repentance. People have apathy; they can communicate without discussion but with looks, touch, and affection.

The afterlife, is it so important? No probably not

This is another anomaly about the bible. Your life is lived as best it can within the 70 or so years you have on earth. You should make the most and best you can within this time and not plan for some form of surreal, idealist afterlife. Surely this sort of promise of a perfect afterlife is unrealistic and even if you lived in your own mind to best of your intentions is still not rewarded?

The understanding of an afterlife is another reason lots of people do not believe in the bible, the definition and understanding is so extreme and so subject to people's earthly opinions that is it is rejected.

To some up, if I were a marketing agent for the Christian religion I would say, "Great idea, wonderful history, but too confusing to the common man and woman". The message may be clear, but the understanding is cloudy!

David you have asked for discussion and to put the cat amongst the pigeons, well hopefully I do not offend but offer some form of argument. Much more to come!

Marc

[David Pinnegar]

Dear Marc

Great to hear from you. There are so many like us who find confusion, as well as incredulity at the reading of the book as historical fact.

Currently another member of this forum and I are being tortured by fortnightly exposure to concepts in the most simplistic of terms, which at least is inspiring both of us about how not to think and what christianity really is not. One might argue that the incumbent is succeeding thereby but it seems most perverse.

However, the more of the literal stuff that I'm exposed to, the more a metaphorical interpretation enables me to escape certain stumbling blocks to find a more elevated and spiritual meaning beyond.

The 7 day business is tritely explained away in the concept that in the beginning before the firmanent was created and before it revolved around the light once in every 365 1/4 times that it revolved on its own axis, the length of the day, era, epoch, was undefined.

We also have the difficulty that translation not always conveys the same concepts. So for instance in French <<Notre Père qui es aux cieux>> - "Our Father who is in the skies" with other references to <<Que ta Volonté soit faite sur la terre comme au ciel>> "who's wish be done on the earth as in the sky" leads to Claude Vorihilon "Rael"'s concept of 'Let's welcome our fathers from space'.

In view of multiple retellings of the stories in multiple convolutions of translation, we have to look at information transmission in the course of time and this can be tested in experiments with Chinese Whispers.

It's for this reason that I believe historical narrative to be secondary to the wisdom that the stories conveyed to the successive generations and people to whom meaning had been given thereby.

It looks as though we agree about the afterlife - I have tried to explain how in fact we percieve the afterlife in this life simultaneously in parallel in this timeframe rather than the future as time has no meaning. A future "time" can exist in this "time" in dimensions of which we are not fully or at all aware in this "time". We wait for Jesus to return. In a "time" which is an illusion. Through his gifts to us, he returns in each one of us in this "time", and so we join the club, work as one body and know what to do.

It's because we are now programmed in literacy that we ignore the visual and auditory triggers to which former illiterate generations were sensitive and we expect meaning where formerly there was only mystery. In that mystery was an understanding of the natural order of things and an understanding to which we are now insulated.

Just as Christ taught in parables, the whole text has a whole supertext in the symbolism it represents. The meaning of the parables was invisible to those to whom it was invisible and to whom parallel thought was a strange concept. The meanings were hidden save unto the initiates. Increasingly I'm wondering if this is the pattern of the whole text?

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

. . . Surely the Bible is a literal text based book, based on events that happened in the past, a series of physical events starting from the dawn of time to life/death of Jesus? 

Dear Marc

A very wise philosopher, one George Ullyott, teaching physics to teenager would immediately interrupt anyone in mid flow upon hearing the word "Surely". He said that it was indicative of an assumption and that the job of a physicist, indeed the mantra of the physicist, should be always to "find the assumption".    ;)

:)

He would also ask us what time was. Having made a fool of ourselves for minutes at a time trying to explain the impossible, he would also simply say "Time Is".

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

Surely all has now been written on this subject?

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

Surely all has now been written on this subject?

Hi!

The word "Surely" above indicates that an assumption follows.

This evening I bumped into some friends to whom I mentioned the heresies that I write here. One of them told me that her husband had seen the Atheist's Corner here and remarked that "There's that Priest there who thinks that Muslims and we worship the same God: we don't go around killing people". I replied that all those who truly understand the forces and mechanisms through which all has been created don't kill people whatever the respective texts through which they have studied, and that the problem was in the literal interpretations of texts without looking at their parallel meanings which lead us closer to our Father.

The question is "Who is our Father". If we do not know our fathers, we are bastards.

We are told that our Father loves all of the results of Creation and that too must include vaste swathes of this world where people know the creation force through other means and other texts: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold".

Best wishes

David P

[KB7DQH]

We are told that our Father loves all of the results of Creation and that too must include vaste swathes of this world where people know the creation force through other means and other texts: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold".

Along these lines I wanted to see "what all the fuss was about" with the   "Mayan" Calendar, and learned through a tiny bit of research that much of the "fuss" was plainly a misunderstanding of what it actually is and how it works. 

It is actually a very important "spiritual" time measurement system... And, guess what?
Using the Mayan calendar, the universe and the planet we live on was, in fact, created in 7 "days"... corresponding to a "Gregorian" calendar, taking some 16 billion years...

Eric
KB7DQH

[David Pinnegar]

It is actually a very important "spiritual" time measurement system... And, guess what?
Using the Mayan calendar, the universe and the planet we live on was, in fact, created in 7 "days"... corresponding to a "Gregorian" calendar, taking some 16 billion years...

Hi Eric!

How very interesting and . . . spot on  . . . and after ringing bells this morning similar ideas about time presented themselves. Whether things are quick or slow is merely a matter of our perception.

Just as on a quantum level an electron can be perceived in two places at once, just imagine being an electron loose in the middle of space. The electron has no idea of time. Whether it has existed for all of time or has been created from energy at some stage it doesn't know. If it's positionally still in space light years from anything else it has no idea of time to relate to. Time has no meaning for it. But certainly if it's travelling at the speed of light it has a very different perception of time as do we in another spatial frame as observers. The electron is certainly in a different timeframe and time in any absolute sense has no meaning.

The electron may be able to be in two places at once simply because it's able to exist in two perceived timeframes at once.

A photon is even more interesting. Because it must always be travelling at the speed of light, it's perception of time is infinite. And the photon really can be in two places at once as is proved by diffraction experiments where a photon can go through two spatially separated slits at once. (Colin - I'm expecting something from you on this one . . . )

As he was departing, a friend who is on this forum but who is computeristically challenged handed me a piece of paper with the following inscribed in beautiful handwriting:

I'm sure it's all to do with consciousness - the Christ consciousness in fact, which was granted to the apostles - not some vague 'spirit' which entered them. It's that Christ consciousness which we all aspire to, and which is ultimately inevitable for everyone.

Jesus in his resurrected body could be present in many places at once. This is not a unique phenonomen - various other great beings have done the same, and resurrected themselves. 'Ascension' is symbolic of moving up through levels of consciousness.

'Eternal life' means life beyond time, not life lasting for ever in a time sense (linear time).

His 'coming again' does not refer to some future date that the evangelicals are so fond of talking about, but rather it refers to our experience of Christ consciousness beyond the limitiations of time.

Thanks Michael!

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

I really question the view in the last post about the "Second Coming".  The Bible is quite clear that it is in "end of the age" - a time of judgement and the ultimate defeat of Satan.

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

Dear Tony

Yes - I think there's room for both points of view. In the analagous point of view, Jesus returns when each Christian resurrects him in their hearts. Judgment happens within each one of us and each Christian brings about the ultimate defeat of Satan particularly in the manner of the exclusive club which I outlined in a former post by reason of the mechanism of "The Light Shineth in Darkness and the Darkness Comprehendeth It Not" and the way in which those who understand have greater power collectively than those that don't.

Best wishes

David P

[KB7DQH]

Have a look athttp://larouchepac.com/node/18196 and http://larouchepac.com/node/18319 as there is a "common hypothesis" being formed.

Much as a number of scientific breakthroughs have been accomplished throughout history simultaneously by individuals unaware of the research of the others, some similar commonalities
seem to be presenting themselves...

Eric
KB7DQH

[David Pinnegar]

Dear Eric

Thanks so much for these links which are so very interesting. The first paragraph of the second is interesting as it is

The root of the most prevalent errors of judgment respecting both the essential nature of a competent notion of physical science, and, taking into account the failures of judgment respecting human social processes, which is to be located, fundamentally, in the presumption that the root of human knowledge lies in the principles of sense-perception, rather than in higher order of knowledge, that being the knowledge of the creative powers unique to the actual human mind, a mind which knows that sense-perception is nothing better than a distorted shadow of the reality accessible only to that rarely recognized reality which exists only in the powers of what remains, still today, the rarely recognized existence of the actual human mind.

a restatement of Plato's concept 2 1/2 thousand years or so ago that we live in a cave of which our only knoweldge of the outside world is that of the shadows of the figures outside dancing in the light on the wall of our cave . . . .

Recently I have been involved in counselling a person with a significant breakdown. Having rejected any ideas of God or religion for many years the person suddenly started carrying the bible around and reading it and they were annoyed and distressed at not being able to remember the Lord's Prayer. The breakdown was so severe that the only thing left in the person's life was the idea of god, having been rejected for so long before and after the rejection of which life had gone wrong progressively.

This is the importance of introducing religion to people at whatever stage and however they might reject it so that at least they have one thing to cling on to when all else disappears.

Not only is the club of faith and a service to light free, but it is settling to the mind and a free service in the provision of mental health. Of course we are all aware of instances where blind religion leads people off the rails but this is usually on account of unthinking adherence to absurdities.

However, the words of The Prayer, each line of them, are very very therapeutic and can so well console and encourage. They provide a certainty which really isn't worth throwing away simply because people mistakenly think that they are atheists.

The view of atheism is usually misfounded upon some sticking point of a literal translation or mistranslation that really does not need to be an obstacle to faith in the basic workings of the universe which have an impact upon everything from the very big on the very largest and infinite of size to the very small and the closest to invisible in size and everything else in between. There is no reason to believe that we are not part of all of those processes, laws and forces applicable to everything in between. Isn't it an absurdity to do so?

Best wishes,

David P

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

One of the most creative events at the Cannes Film Festival is the Straight8 Competition. Among these films are the most succinctly intriguing stories you'll ever find and all of the those featured on the website are brilliantly engaging.

Whilst a purely Earth to Earth
http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=10087417&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1
interpretation must surely be the obvious one, just as surely as the Gold Lady of
http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=10117924&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1
is telling us purely about Golf, sticks and balls.

Whilst the Authorised Version of 1611 appears confusing to some, its demystification has led to an apalling dumbing down of the understanding of Christianity, leading to some of the misconceptions which lead many astray.

The prayer is not
Our Father who is in Heaven
but
Our Father which is in Heaven

The difference in meaning is profound and the wisdom of the 1611 edition is that the language leads one to think.

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

Just to confuse matters further, I've always been taught "...which art in heaven" ;)

YES! Of course! On my mind and intended but was absent mindedly typed. Thanks for correcting me!

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

I wasn't correcting you, simply mentioning what I'd been taught - I'd assumed that "which is" was genuinely what you'd been taught.

:-) You were taught well and I am getting old and forgetful . . .

Best wishes

David P