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Elgar and the organ

Started by Colin Pykett, June 02, 2011, 09:02:25 AM

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Colin Pykett

I may have missed it, but there does not seem to be a proper place on this forum for topics related to the MUSIC of the organ.  Lots of topics about the instrument itself, but I think we need to remember that at the end of the day the organ is a machine for making music, and it would be nice to think the forum could attract more musicians and composers, hopefully professional ones who know what they are talking about.  (As I said, apologies if there is such a topic and I have not noticed it).

With this background, and bearing in mind that I am merely an amateur musician, I would like to raise a topic about Elgar and the organ with respect to his orchestral works rather than his (very limited) output for solo performance.  My gripe is this:  he wrote quite substantial organ parts in several works which are far too frequently ignored in the sense the organ is simply omitted!  It's unbelievable.  How can a work be considered properly performed when one of the parts is arbitrarily omitted?  If this is considered permissible, then why not omit the oboes, the violins or any other instrument(s) that a conductor finds inconvenient?

An example is the sublime closing section of his 'Cockaigne' overture.  This was one of the first pieces whose inner workings I was exposed to as a lad when it was a set work for O-level analysis.  I was introduced to the mysteries of sonata form and Elgar's mastery of it, as well as his genius as an orchestrator - and all from an untutored, self-taught, composer.  It's incredible.  Whenever I hear that wonderful organ entry towards the end of this marvellous piece, heralded by that low pedal note, I invariably have difficulty controlling my emotions.  To me it is one of the most exquisite occasions in all of music.  Yet I am denied this when there is no organ.  It happens far too often both in live performances and, even more unforgivably, on recordings.

Other examples are  the Enigma Variations where, again, some conductors omit the organ in the final 'EDU' variation and of course yet others including the first Pomp and Circumstance march.

There is a real practical problem here, because it is often not clear whether the organ will be used in a live performance, or whether it is included on a recording.  It is just not acceptable that we are expected to shell out hard-earned cash to find out the hard way!  In any case, in either situation a digital organ could be used at minimal expense in a venue without a pipe organ - not ideal, agreed, but far better than not having one at all.

If you aren't sure which CD to buy to experience the way Elgar used the organ orchestrally for yourself, two where the organ plays its proper part are those by the Scottish National Orchestra under Sir Alexander Gibson (CHAN 6504) - this includes the Enigma Variations and all the P&C Marches - and the LSO under Sir Charles Mackerras (ARGO 430 835-2) - this includes Cockaigne.   I expect they are no longer available new, but most discs can still be obtained from places such as ebay, Amazon or various specialist outlets on the internet.

So do please join me in a crusade to keep the organ alive in orchestral music!

Colin Pykett

KB7DQH

Funny you mention organ/orchestral works... Poulenc's Organ Concerto just started playing on the CD machine ;) ;D 8)

More than one Symphony Orchestra here in the USA has lamented the inability to include the organ in symphonic works which require it... and so have gone to great expense to add quality pipe instruments to their new concert halls once completed...  I will have to check the Casavant-Freres website to see if they have now included the specification of the instrument they are likely now in the process of building for the new concert hall recently completed in Saint Louis, Missouri...

Now to convince these symphonies to actually perform/record more of the organ/orchestra repertoire than Saint-Saens ???

One of the most successful CD's (at least among the "audiophile" community) is a Reference Recordings disc entitled "Pomp and Pipes"... featuring  a Brass ensemble with the Fisk organ in the concert hall of the Dallas Symphony Orchestra's relatively "new" facility...

I have no knowledge of how symphonies determine which music they perform for a given concert season, nor how the "general public" can influence this process short of having a large enough purse to "sponsor" performance of a specific piece... 

But it couldn't hurt having a forum administrator with a concert venue at his disposal :o :o ??? ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Whether or not he can round up an orchestra to help out with such a project is another matter :-X

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

David Pinnegar

Hi!

In fact in the Autumn a brass band http://www.surreyyeomanry.com/ want to record at Hammerwood and I am trying to persuade them to use the Elgin Room and do something with organ.

If anyone has suggestions as to repertoire that would be interesting with organ perhaps they might be open to ideas . . .

Best wishes

David P

KB7DQH

A couple pieces played last week on the radio in observance of Memorial Day, one by Charles-Marie Widor and one by Marcel Dupre' come to mind... both were sourced from the album mentioned in my earlier post. Now to search up the "online liner notes"...

More to follow...
Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

KB7DQH

QuoteRR-58 HDCD - DALLAS WIND SYMPHONY / FREDERICK FENNELL: Pomp & Pipes!
KARG-ELERT: Praise the Lord with Drums and Cymbals; REED: Allelujah! Laudamus Te; GIGOUT: Grand Chorus in Dialogue; WILLS: The Vikings; GRAINGER: The Power of Rome and the Christian Heart; DUPRE: Poeme Heroique; NELSON: Pebble Beach Sojourn; WIDOR: Salvum Fac Populum Tuum; WEINBERGER: Schwanda: Polka and Fugue. (CDTT: 68:02) (Released 1994)

There is probably more "out there" but this selection I have currently riding around on the CD carousel someplace...

A proper recording would allow for direct comparison between a large brass band and tracker-action pipe instrument in a large acoustic against....... ;) ;) ;)

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

Janner

Quote from: David Pinnegar on June 03, 2011, 12:59:24 AM
Hi!

In fact in the Autumn a brass band http://www.surreyyeomanry.com/ want to record at Hammerwood and I am trying to persuade them to use the Elgin Room and do something with organ.

If anyone has suggestions as to repertoire that would be interesting with organ perhaps they might be open to ideas . . .

Best wishes

David P


Organ and brass......... excellent.  :)

Going back to the original post, I know a good musician whose first instrument is the organ and second instrument the double bass. For a while she helped out in an amateur orchestra when they were suddenly left without a bass player.

At a rehearsal for a concert in the local church, she (the organist), had to jump off her bass 'perch' and go back to the choir stalls for something which had been left there. The organ is situated off the chancel behind the choir stalls.

As she went through the screen doors, subdued panic broke out in the pit, accompanied by desperate murmurings of "No organ.......... No organ!"

I suppose some of the orchestra may have had a bad experience in the past with an over enthusiastic organist, but their fears would have been entirely unfounded in this case. Many of them had never heard her play. They would have had to have gone some way to find a more sensitive accompanist. In fact, thinking about it now after reading Colin's original post, they probably missed a golden opportunity to broaden their repertoire.

revtonynewnham

Quote from: David Pinnegar on June 03, 2011, 12:59:24 AM
Hi!

In fact in the Autumn a brass band http://www.surreyyeomanry.com/ want to record at Hammerwood and I am trying to persuade them to use the Elgin Room and do something with organ.

If anyone has suggestions as to repertoire that would be interesting with organ perhaps they might be open to ideas . . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

IIRC, Arthur Will's "Fenland Suite" was written for organ & brass band - I've got a recording on cassette lurking somewhere.  There there's plenty of scope for arrangements.
There's also the possibility, if the band have soloists who want to "show off", of some of the organ plus repertoire.  Last year, I persuaded my son to join me in the Bradford Organists' Assoc member's recital - we ploayed part of the Holst Duo Concertante for organ & trombone.  (Come to think of it, something on those lines might make an unusual organ recital for you - there must be players around in your neck of the woods).  Warwick music seem to have plenty of suitable items in their catalogue.

I hope the band can be persuaded - even if the organ is only used in a couple of items.

Every Blessing

Tony

Colin Pykett

Re David's request for suggestions for brass and organ:

Elgar's so-called 2nd organ Sonata (op 87a) has strong associations with his Severn Suite for brass band (op 87).  The connection is quite complex and I won't go into all of it here, but one can find it quite easily by surfing around (e.g. try the Wikipedia entry for 'Severn Suite').  Very briefly, the Severn Suite was a late work written for brass band, and the Sonata is largely based on it through a transcription/arrangement by Ivor Atkins, sometime organist at Worcester cathedral.

A suggestion is that you might like to play all the movements, but using the organ for some and the band for the rest.  This would be novel and quite possibly unique - I have not heard of it being done before.  The musical justification for it would be that the connections between the two versions are so intimate.

Colin Pykett

Ginevra

 yet in sleuthing around, I have not seen any reference to Sir Edward Elgar. Comments, gentlemen?

Say what you will about the Elgar Sonata in G, yet I find it more difficult than the Reubke. Of course I'm biased, but the piece seems -in general- very underrated amongst Americans.

Cheers,

Barrie Davis

Hi

Theres a very interesting article in the latest edition of The Organ about Elgars music for the organ. Well worth reading!!

Best wishes

Barrie

makemoreandmore

I love Elgar's organ parts, and its a shame that people even THINK of leaving them out. They wouldn't do that with Richard Stauss's Sunrise, would they!