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Redundant organs in listed buildings

Started by Janner, June 24, 2011, 09:34:24 AM

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Janner

While making enquiries about an organ in a closed, but not sold, church, I was advised that because it is a listed building, removal of the organ may not be allowed and it may have to be incorporated into whatever scheme is approved for the building after it is sold.

I am told that it all depends on whether the local council regards the organ as a fixture or a fitting. The latter may be removed but the former may not. In short it appears to be down to how the local council, or more probably an official in the council offices, interprets the rules.

This seems to be a very haphazard way of doing things. Two different councils may have very similar situations, yet one could allow an organ to be removed while the other may not.

A search on the forum has turned up this post by Barry Williams:

http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,475.msg1921.html#msg1921

For ease of reading, the following is an edited version:

Quote from: Barry Williams on February 14, 2011, 01:58:05 AM
................................

There are detailed guidelines explaining the application of the relief to pipe organs in Listed (technically, 'Protected') Buildings...............  Following a test case (not involving organs,) the fabric of the building was defined as being the floor, windows, doors, walls and roof.  There are wider circumstances.............. (providing that the organ is actually part of the building,) .......................
Barry Williams

I am a little puzzled by the post.

On the one hand it says "The fabric of the building was defined as being the floor, windows, doors, walls and roof." It then continues "(Providing that the organ is actually part of the building.)"

Does the latter statement not imply a possible modification of the former?

Is it a good thing to apply this rule to organs anyway?

It's possible to visualize various scenarios here, and I can see all sorts of associated arguments, but I am thinking mainly about an instance where an organ may be 'trapped' somewhere where it may just be hidden and left to rot, if a building is converted into perhaps a residence or flats, or removed to a place where it may be maintained and used as a musical instrument.

Has anyone had any experience of this, or any thoughts? Barry perhaps?


Barry Williams

There is an exemption from Listed Building Consent (but not Planning Permission) for eccelsiastical buildings that are in ecclesiastical use.

Once an ecclesiastical Listed Building cease to be used for ecclesiastical purposes, (i.e. divine worship), control of the building for the purpose of Listed building consent passes to the secular authority.

It is therefore true that the fate of an organ in a Listed church no longer used for worship will be in the hands of the local authority.  However, there is process and procedure that must be followed.  It is not quite as Janner suggests, that a single official has the final say, though some conservation officers can be very influential.

This situation occured in respect of Parkstone Church.  I nearly found a home for the organ, but the local authority would not release the organ unless it stayed completely original, with its switch stacks.  Any church installing an organ would have to have solid state, because of the the difficutlies and cost of maintaining an out-moded mechanism, albeit refurbished, for no good reason.  It would not have made financial sense.  I understand that the building is now used by the Orthodox Church. 

Janner has quoted my post relating to VAT relief which has no bearing on the issue of Listed Building consent.  When a building is Listed Building is listed the whole of the building is Listed, inside and out.  Planning Permission controls the exterior.  Listed building consent controls the interior as well.

I hope that this clarifies the situation.

Barry williams

David Pinnegar

Quote from: Barry Williams on June 24, 2011, 11:11:38 AM
Janner has quoted my post relating to VAT relief which has no bearing on the issue of Listed Building consent.  When a building is Listed Building is listed the whole of the building is Listed, inside and out.  Planning Permission controls the exterior.  Listed building consent controls the interior as well.

Hi!

I was under the impression that works which are subject to listed building consent do actually qualify for VAT relief

Best wishes

David P

Barry Williams

The situation is slightly more complicated than that.

Approved Alterations to Protected Buildings normally rank for zero rating.  There are narrow definitions as to what constitutes the building since the decision in C & E Commrs v Windflower Housing Assn QB [1995].  An Approved Alteration can, in VAT terms, be repair and maintenance and thus not qualify.  Organs fall into this category more often than not, save in the narrow circumstances when the organ is actually part of the building, (rare,) or the work on the organ is consequential to other qualifying work that is itself an Approved Alteration to the building.  'Approved' in this context means Listed Building Consent (and its equivalent in Scotland and Northern Ireland, or a faculty if the building is ecclesiastical and is in ecclesiastical use.

Barry Williams

Janner

#4
Thank you Barry for that prompt reply. I was rather hoping you might have an explanation.

I realised your earlier post was referring to VAT matters. I quoted it because it appeared to suggest some sort of definition of what constituted fixtures and what were fittings, but I see now that I was mistaken.

Anyway, thanks again.