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Which Hope-Jones / Wulrlitzer organ still in existence is the oldest?

Started by KB7DQH, July 30, 2011, 08:52:22 PM

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KB7DQH

 Another research project  :o 8) ;D ;) :)  One needs to answer  important questions... Which Hope-Jones organ still in existence is the oldest? 

The "chatter" would indicate Pilton is a likely candidate...

Just how many "Hope-Jones" organs are there left (in one form or another) in the world? 

Prior to his work on "unit orchestras" he was at one time employed (and fired by) one Ernest M. Skinner... and like Robert Hope-Jones and G. Donald Harrison,  all British expatriates...

As was the architect and "organ anorak" George Ashdown Audsley...

[expletive moderated] Another thread topic :o

Okay,  back to topic-- sort of.  Hope-Jones did manage a few of "his own" organ projects here in the states after working at E. M. Skinner, and before his association with Wurlitzer...

When I get time I shall have a dig around the Organ Historical Society website and see if they list any examples...  Granted, there are but a handful of Midmer-Losh organs listed, including the obvious one (opus 5550)  but that leaves 5548 or more "unaccounted for" (theoretically)... not listed for whatever reason.  Likewise I suppose NPOR does not list every organ built by every builder for many of the same reasons;)  Bearing this in mind there may be some omissions.........

Any organ scholars lurking in the background are hereby encouraged to register, login, and contribute :)

Moderators are hereby encouraged to parse and distribute this thread as required, lest I be accused of hijacking my own thread :o ;D ;)

Eric
KB7DQH


The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

pcnd5584

#1
Quote from: KB7DQH on July 30, 2011, 08:52:22 PM
Another research project  :o 8) ;D ;) :)  One needs to answer  important questions... Which Hope-Jones organ still in existence is the oldest? 

The "chatter" would indicate Pilton is a likely candidate...  ....


Eric
KB7DQH

The Hope-Jones organ in Pilton Church, North Devon has been altered considerably. See here for the original stop-list:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N10506  and here for the present details:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D02980

I did once play this instrument. The experience was interesting....

So, although this organ was built in 1898, it is now substantially different, so I am not sure that it would still qualify as a Hope-Jones instrument. I have to confess that I am mystified by at least part of the description on the NPOR survey: '...a16' pedal reed, with a rank of Septima on second touch'. I am cognisant of what a flat twenty-first is, but I have never seen it spelled this way - if that is what is meant, here. In any case, I am not sure why one would want a Bombarde with a flat twenty-first available on second touch....

I wonder if the additions to the Pedal Organ were influenced by the Roger Yates rebuild of the organ in the Church of Saint James the Great,  Kilkhampton, North Cornwall. This instrument was rebuilt by Yates in 1958, with the Pedal (French-style) Bombarde being added in 1962, the work again carried out by Roger Yates. The survey link is here: http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N11195

It will be noted that there are certain similarities between the Kilkhampton scheme and the additions to the organ of Pilton Church. There is probably less than twenty miles' distance between the two instruments.



Pierre Cochereau rocked, man

revtonynewnham

Hi

There are very few untouched H-J organs left - one I can think of is Battersea Arts Centre (formerly the Town Hall) - a 4m concert instrument, recently repaired by HWS Associates.

Both Junchen's book and Wurlitzer and Fox's on Hope Jones cover his early years, and both include lists of organs built by him and the various firms he worked with - but given his unpopularity in the organ world at the time, I suspect most have been altered or replaced - certainly the 2nd organ he built for the local parish church here has been rebuild out of all recognition - I think maybe one H-J rank survives.

Searches on NPOR are complicated by the fact that many H-J organs were built under the name of the various firms he worked with (Ingram & Norman & Beard notably - there are/were several N&B organs that are H-J except for the nameplate!)

Some detective work required to see if any remain.  Maybe the H-J museum can help?

Every Blessing

Tony

Barrie Davis

Hi

Look at St Dyfnog Llanraeadr Denbighshire NPOR SJ081633, its basically original restored by Wood of Huddersfield there are a couple of photographs. This is one of the few Hope Jones I know about.

Best wishes

Barrie

revtonynewnham

Hi Barrie

You seem have to quoted the OS Grid reference!

Those who are interested, do an address search for Llanrhaeadr (the correct spelling!  Computers don't recognize mis-spelled words!)  The Index no. is H00091.

looking at the survey, it seems that at least the Swell 4ft has been changed to a Principal 4 from the Phoneuma 8 recorded bu the late Bernard Edmonds in 1945, and there's no way of telling what else has been changed or revoiced.

Still, it looks an interesting example of the true Octopod pre-changes.

According to Colin Pykett, this and Pilton are the only 2 remaining small H-J organs.

A slightly larger H-J is (was?) in all Souls, Clive Vale, Hastings (a church where my step-uncle was incumbent for a while) - see http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N15689  This had been unplayable for many years when I saw it in the 1980's, and I have heard that the church is now closed (redundant).  Last I heard the organ was still in situ.  It was worked on in the 1930's so probably isn't totally original - although the console of typical H-J form was still there when I saw it.

Every Blessing

Tony

twanguitar

I assume this is the thread which started off earlier in another thread when we got sidetracked onto the HJ organ at Pilton?

Anyway, I've had some PM correspondence with Colin Pykett whose website is pretty much crammed with HJ info, and he is quite happy for it to be repeated on the forum.  He has obviously done an awful lot of research himself and said lots of things actually, far too much to repeat here.  But as he hasn't played the Pilton organ since c. 1992, he accepts his first hand knowledge is now probably out of date.  He also said the Llanrhaeadr organ was (is?) much closer to its original condition than Pilton, one of the few changes being that he thought the Stop Switch registration aid (a black tilting tablet) now brings on full organ instead.  (Quite reasonably, he asked "why, for goodness sake?").

He also mentioned that quite a few people have played his digital simulation of the Pilton organ, among them being Tony.  He also holds quite a strong view that one of the best repositories of HJ info nowadays, if not the best, is indeed the Lancastrian Theatre Organ Trust (LTOT) in Manchester, who have set up an HJ museum at Eccles (near to where that plane tragically came down the other day) as well as having a Wurlitzer in apparently mint condition (he played it last year).  Roger Fisher is the guy to contact there, not to be confused with his namesake who was at one time editor of Organists' Review and a former organist of Chester Cathedral!  However that remark is in no way intended to denigrate the Roger Fisher at LTOT, merely to point out a similarity in name that might otherwise be a source of embarrassment to the uninitiated.  Colin was most emphatic about the wealth of HJ knowledge at the LTOT, as he has been there several times.

Sorry about the disjointed nature of the above, but I've got to go out now!  Hope it helps.  It looks though LTOT should be the next port of call for anyone who's really interested in this thread.

TG

David Pinnegar

Quote from: twanguitar on August 01, 2011, 10:54:16 AM
Anyway, I've had some PM correspondence with Colin Pykett whose website is pretty much crammed with HJ info, and he is quite happy for it to be repeated on the forum.

Hi!

It would be super if you might possibly try to persuade him to rejoin the forum so that perhaps he might be able to contribute directly, in particular giving direct links to the particularly relevant sections of his website . . . as he might know directly where information is . . . !

Best wishes

David P

revtonynewnham

Hi

Yes - this is separated from the related thread, as Twanguitar says.  Admin & I (at least) thought it worthy of a separate thread.

I've yet to get to Peel Green - I was otherwise engaged when the Bradford Organists' Assoc went there a few years back.  One of the exhibts there (currently the only entry for the place on NPOR) is http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=E01225 which is the remnants of the firts organ that H-J worked on - the history can be traced back.  Roger Fisher's book "From Wirral to Wurlitzer" covers H-J's early years in particular - another one to add to the list.

Every Blessing

Tony

revtonynewnham

Hi

Another, later but possibly more complete untouched contender has been pointed out to me by someone who has not (yet?) registered here.  it's http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N04261  A 4m church organ.

Every Blessing

Tony

Barrie Davis

Im intruiged by HJ in many respects he was a genius. I have to admit I have only played one of his organs that being in Stourport before the fire and it did the job it was supposed to. I knew the bits at Worcester Cathedral they worked, but didnt please the Cathedral. Please can we have more information about this man, maybe on another topic.

Best wishes

Barrie

KB7DQH

QuotePlease can we have more information about this man, maybe on another topic.

Forthcoming a link to a Colin Pykett article in the Electronic Organ :o board...

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

organforumadmin

Quote from: revtonynewnham on July 31, 2011, 09:05:04 AM
Searches on NPOR are complicated by the fact that many H-J organs were built under the name of the various firms he worked with (Ingram & Norman & Beard notably - there are/were several N&B organs that are H-J except for the nameplate!)


Hi!


Whilst not being early, examination of the stoplist of the Glyndebourne instrument of 1926 suggests almost pure HJ in all but name. There can't have been room for much more than 10-15 ranks but there are many more stops split between 4 manuals and one starts to recognise duplication at different pitches just as on a theatre instrument.


Intriguingly there's a 32, a 32 Acoustic Bass and a 64 Acoustic Bass, goodness knows where from . . .


Best wishes


Forum Admin

KB7DQH

This institution maintains what is likely the most famous of Hope-Jones organs here in the USA...

http://www.oceangrove.org/pages/Organ_Specifications

QuoteThe Auditorium Organ

  The organ was built by Robert Hope-Jones, and Englishman who immigrated to this country in 1903 and opened his own factory in Elmira, New York in 1907. The company received major financial support from Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) who was a member of the board of directors and a great admirer of Hope-Jones

The instrument was dedicated on the evening of July 3, 1908 by concert organist, Mark Andrews, with over eight thousand persons in attendance. During the summer of 1908 famed organist Edwin H. Lemare gave a series of ten daily recitals during the convention of the National Association of Organists.

Since 1908 the organ has undergone several rebuilding projects. Beginning in 1974 and continuing through the present, a major expansion program was initiated under the leadership of Auditorium Organist, Dr. Gordon Turk and Organ Curator, John R. Shaw in an effort to create a more versatile instrument. In keeping with accepted standards of organ construction, full diapason, flute, and reed choruses were built for each of the major divisions. Currently the instrument consists of ten (10) divisions, totaling 184 ranks and over 11,000 pipes. It is controlled by a five (5) manual and pedal console. All of the restoration and expansion projects over the years have been funded as a result of memorial contributions and/or generous benefactors. Several projects still await funding.

As the centerpiece of the Auditorium's music program the instrument receives regular care and maintenance. It is used for all services of worship as well as regular recitals featuring the resident organist in addition to numerous guest recitalists.

Today the auditorium organ is one of  the largest and most famous pipe organs in the country and is recognized for its unique tonal subtlety as well as its massive sonority. As a result of its tonal flexibility the organist is able to draw upon a broad range of repertoire. It is heard by thousands of persons each season.

For the 100th anniversary in 2008 a celebration of the opening of the organ in 1908, a new gallery division consisting of 15 ranks of pipes built by A.R. Schopps' Sons, Alliance, Ohio was installed in September of 2007. This division is located  in the real gallery of the auditorium 300 feet from the main organ. The gallery organ is the result of funds provided by an anonymous donor.


Just how much "Hope-Jones" is left in this organ ??? 

Eric
KB7DQH
The objective is to reach human immortality—that is, to create things which are necessary to mankind, necessary to the purpose of the existence of mankind, and which have become the fruit that drives the creation of a higher state of mankind than ever existed before."

revtonynewnham

Hi

The Glyndebourne instrument was built by Hill, Norman & Beard for John Christie - the managing director (IIRC) of the firm - and since they had been building theatre organs from at least the 1920's and a little later the Christie theatre organs, I suspect that's where the influence came tonally, although given that H-J worked with Norman & beard for a couple of years there is a link there as well.  Interesting.

Every Blessing

Tony

David Pinnegar

Quote from: organforumadmin on August 01, 2011, 11:47:41 PM
Whilst not being early, examination of the stoplist of the Glyndebourne instrument of 1926 suggests almost pure HJ in all but name.

Hi!

Here's the stoplist - presumably it's in print elsewhere?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izbv7WVmufA&feature=related

Best wishes

David P

revtonynewnham

Hi

The stop list for Glyndebourne is on NPOR

Every Blessing

Tony

flared_ophicleide

Quote from: David Pinnegar on August 08, 2011, 12:22:08 PM
Quote from: organforumadmin on August 01, 2011, 11:47:41 PM
Whilst not being early, examination of the stoplist of the Glyndebourne instrument of 1926 suggests almost pure HJ in all but name.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izbv7WVmufA&feature=related


Saw the clip. OMG, what a case!!!  Thank God it survives at least.

Noticed that the missing draw knob from the Swell is the one lying next to the Choir keyboard cheek.  2 2/3' Twelfth

flared_ophicleide

Quote from: KB7DQH on July 30, 2011, 08:52:22 PM


  Granted, there are but a handful of Midmer-Losh organs listed, including the obvious one (opus 5550)  but that leaves 5548 or more "unaccounted for" (theoretically)... not listed for whatever reason.


Actually, Midmer-Losh's opus numbering system had a slight twist to it.  If my memory serves me right, the list started with 5000.  That said, Boardwalk Hall organ is really their 550th organ.

David Drinkell

Hi!


Whilst not being early, examination of the stoplist of the Glyndebourne instrument of 1926 suggests almost pure HJ in all but name. There can't have been room for much more than 10-15 ranks but there are many more stops split between 4 manuals and one starts to recognise duplication at different pitches just as on a theatre instrument.


Intriguingly there's a 32, a 32 Acoustic Bass and a 64 Acoustic Bass, goodness knows where from . . .


Best wishes


Forum Admin
[/quote]

Glyndebourne was a straight concert organ.  Christie was in the habit of ordering more stops and they were crammed in somehow - I think the 32' was under the floor.  HN&B used pipewok from Glyndebourne when they built the present organ in the Guard's Chapel, Hyde Park.