possible Hope Jones Organ bench ( and Diaphone ) on ebay

[dragonser]

Hi, just saw this on ebay.
item number 320806878797

there is also a set of Diaphone pipes being sold by the same seller.

regards Peter B

[Lucien Nunes]

I'm pleased to say that both of these items have found homes, the bench going to a member of Hope-Jones' family. In fact a useful amount of material from this instrument (N13506) has been saved including all but one pipe rank.

Lucien

[David Drinkell]

Sad to see this one (All Saints, Upper Norwood) go - it was a fine old beast of much distinction in its own way.  Glad to know most of it was salvaged.

[AnOrganCornucopia]

Hope-Jones organs are now getting very scarce. I'm not sure if the big one in Warwick Castle is there still - but there are the small ones at Ambleside and Pilton (the latter has been much enlarged, the former has a Nasard on the formerly all-8ft Choir), there's one 4m (long unplayable but largely intact) in Hartlepool, there's Battersea Town Hall (another 4m), and there's what's left of this one and St Paul's Burton-on-Trent. I hope very much that these two redundant instruments could be used in a reconstruction of a complete new Hope-Jones instrument - and if there's a big Ophicleide or somesuch left over it could go to replace the missing one at Hartlepool.

I understand also that Pierre is in possession of measurements and so on of the old Worcester Diaphones...

[Pierre Lauwers]

Much of the Diaphone basses are probably still there, since I cannot imagine how they could
remove them without removing some walls. The Vernichtung of the Swellbox already needed
one week with quite convincing tools to be done (it was made of bricks !).
But there is more to this organ than the Diaphones, in that the backbone of the tonal structure
was based on the big one (contrarily to all what followed), not the O.D. II. The "secret" of this organ
was the leathered O.D. I (Phonon) and its 4' Octave (leathered in the lower half of the compass) and
the chorus reeds of the Great, Swell and "Solo" (which wasn't really a Solo, rather an auxilliary Great).
In 1978 the Great reeds were somewhat butchered -in order to give them a "french" flavor no frenchman
would have found- but the Swell ones were better conserved, and were incredibly effective in their brick
Swellbox with shades having the "Sound-trap" system.
There was nothing like the effect of a french "Récit boîte fermée" (closed Swellbox effect) to expect with the reeds on,
but an incredibly wide dynamic range which permitted to accompany whatever choir in whatever music with that
manual. Indeed, the Swell was just above the heads of the singers in the choir, which helped (remember the acoustics
of this sandstone building is a nightmare) somewhat; more, the singers had better to mind to stay in tune, because
the revenge could had been terrible; a single press on the pedal with the full-Swell could have scalped someone.

Best wishes,
Pierre

[Lucien Nunes]

The decision to strike the first blow with the axe at Upper Norwood was a tough one. Frankly, the instrument had little to commend it as a historic example of H-J's work in its entirety, N+B having streamlined the tonal design in 1907, while every trace of original H-J electric action had been erased by H,N+B in 1936 and Walker in 1968. As for its value as an instrument to play or hear in its own right without regard to history, I cannot speak from personal experience because it had fallen silent before I first set foot in the church. Opinion seemed to be in its favour despite its eccentricities.

The relatively poor condition of the action and winding especially made it impossible to recommend as a plug-and-play relocation, however various enthusaistic takers came forward with interests in specific ranks. We earmarked a few ranks for storage at Battersea in case we found merit in the future in reverting some of the changes made there in a similar fashion by H,N+B, along with a few action parts as patterns and spares. My primary interest in Hope Jones being his electrical work, it is perhaps a blessing that Upper Norwood was not a conserved example of this, otherwise it might have followed me home.

Lucien

[David Drinkell]

There used to be a very nice small Hope-Jones at St. Maru's Catholic Church in Croydon. I believe it was replaced by a toaster a good few years ago - does any one know if any of it was recycled?

If it's still there, St. Oswald, West Hartlepool was a complete example of a four manual HJ, although built by Ingram after HJ had left for America.

[Pierre Lauwers]

The electrical parts used by Hope-Jones were still largely experimental. Everyone should understand this !
He used a kind of Chatterton, for example, in places where that material could not resist for long. But nobody
could have known that then, exactly like the new materials largely used in the 60's and 70's of the 20th century did
not always fulfill their claims to reliability and longetivity.
But besides this -and after the knowledge I gained from the Worcester organ-, Hope-Jones still used, then,
rather traditionnal slider-chests. And since they still were in use -modified, of course, but because of the action
changes- in 1978, one cannot really say the craftmanship was "bad".
On the tonal side, Hope-Jones was even more creative than with the action ! It is too short to be content
to mourn about "the lack of any mixture". One must also consider the "built-in extension system" (octave
couplers etc) and the use of apparently rather sharp Quintatöns -Not to mention the "Tiercina" that dissepeared
long before I visited the organ-.
The H-J pipes were of exceptionnal substance and quality, and full of surprises, like those Diapasons phonon with
open-toe voicing....

Best wishes,
Pierre

[dragonser]

Hi,
the Catholic Church Near West Croydon now have an Allen Electronic......
I know as
I had to visit recently to repair their Yamaha Digital Piano.
there may be more info on the npor  website ?
I seem to remember reading that the original Organ wasn't saved ? :( 

regards Peter B

[Contrabombarde]

I must say I do find even after a century that George Ashdown Audsley's Art of Organbuilding never fails to reveal interesting nuggets of information. He actually decries electric action on the grounds that at the time of writing it was simply too unreliable - which doubtless contributed to Hope-Jones chequered career. But I was fascinated to read recently (though cannot recall if it was in AoOB or elsewhere) that the earliest attempts at electric action were pioneered in the 1860s by none other than Charles Spackman Barker, who perfected the Barker lever and thereafter seems to have abandoned further research into electrics. One cannot help wondering, had electricity been better understood in the 1860s, whether tubular pneumatic action organs would ever had seen the light of day.

[Pierre Lauwers]

The explanations about the History of the electric action are to be find in this work:

http://books.google.be/books?id=0vg5AQAAIAAJ&dq=editions:ISBN091374607X&hl=fr

Halas only in partial view in Google books.

About Hope-Jones, there is an interesting pamphlet, that was completely available on-line with Google,
but only partially by now (this is incomprehensible for so ancient works for wich the copyrightitis craze
should not reing):

http://books.google.be/books?id=2PY5AQAAIAAJ&dq=editions%3ARiI3edMSDSgC&hl=fr&source=gbs_book_other_versions

Best wishes,
Pierre

[Lucien Nunes]

I fear we have drifted far from the orignal topic! Whitworth and Miller were generally rather complimentary about H-J and what they wrote on the subject deserves scrutiny. Colin Pykett has invested some effort in taking these older references to pieces. More trustworthy than the polarised and exaggerated viewpoint of the time, however, is the present-day evidence of functioning H-J-type action. Granted that instruments such as Hartlepool and Battersea were not built by Hope-Jones, therefore do not reveal shortcomings from inferior materials etc, yet Battersea contains many details that are closely modeled on the patents, etc. and might be considered representive from a technical design aspect which was HJ's proper contribution to the craft. In short, it works rather well. Had Audsley seen the state of some of the original 1899 work at Battersea, unused for decades, trampled over by builders and filthy dirty, that played passably well when first reconnected in 2009, he might have hesitated to call it an unreliable technology.

Lucien

[Pierre Lauwers]

Of course we need to handle the reference material with caution, but this applies
as well for recent works.
Miller's is, as I said, a pamphlet.
We have to read it as such, but this does not affect its credibility when Miller explains,
for example, why H-J used Quintadenas, how he specified them, and for which uses.
The Withwort book still makes refererence among several builders I know for the
restoration of historic electric organs.
Maybe Hope-Jones has been once over-praised, and is now under-rated; we historians
are more interested with the facts, as you do when citing Hartlepool and Battersea. I would
be interested to learn more about those actions.

Best wishes,
Pierre

[AnOrganCornucopia]

The Hartlepool instrument is (almost) all still there - I think it's just the Pedal Ophicleide which has gone AWOL. NPOR will tell all.

As for Upper Norwood - can Lucien tell us what is to become of this pipework? I hope it is not to be dispersed all over the place, but rather kept in one place so it could one day be heard again. Also, what state is the Battersea TH organ in? I'd love to hear it... are there any recitals there?

[David Drinkell]

I think that Hope-Jones, although he wasn't an organ builder himself, employed some first-class craftsmen, so apart from features which were experimental and didn't work out as well as expected, his organs were of superb construction.  Certainly, his pipework was often of excellent quality, as evidenced by the surviving ranks here in the Cathedral organ at St. John's, Newfoundland.

Ingram continued  to build in the Hope-Jones style after HJ himself had fled to the New World.  I don't know whether the Cathedral organ here (which was half-finished when HJ departed) bore a Hope-Jones plate, but it certainly had his motto 'Laus Deo' carved on the console.  The panel survives in our museum and we have pictures of the console - a typical HJ type.  Therefore, I think we are justified in classing instruments such as Hartlepool as Hope-Jones organs, even if they post-date HJ's connection with the firm.

[Lucien Nunes]

Upper Norwood pipework, about half of which was H-J in origin, has gone in three directions although many of the H-J ranks have stayed together. These are destined for a house organ to be built with a predominance of H-J material, including salvaged actions.

Battersea is not yet ready for recitals, as the overhaul is to proceed stepwise. The first phase involved a complete rebuild of the Great division which was the most seriously deteriorated. The Solo, also located in the main stage-left case, received attention at the same time. A wind supply was re-established, rubbish and builders' debris removed from the organ, and 'first-aid' work undertaken to reconnect broken windlines etc, to allow the Gt. to be played and the other divisions to be evaluated.

Lucien

[AnOrganCornucopia]

Interesting to hear of progress with the Battersea organ - is the work being done by volunteers? I am looking for volunteering work at present and can get to Battersea easily by train - if you're looking for help I'd be very glad to assist.

[Lucien Nunes]

At the moment there is no work underway due to the venue's busy schedule, the contract is being undertaken by an organ maintenance firm though. Great to see people are interested in the old beast and thanks for your offer AOC! I first met the organ while installing the stage lighting rig 15 years ago, I didn't at that time expect that it would ever be resurrected...

Lucien

[Barrie Davis]

Have you any idea which firm it is good to see something happening

[Lucien Nunes]

It's being done by HWS, my involvement in the project being the electrics as I've worked with Peter's team before on conservation of electric action. I expect even the diehard tracker enthusiasts here will agree that a nearly-unaltered example of Hope-Jones-designed action deserves to be returned to working order as it has survived with much of the original wiring, stop switching, magnets etc (except for what was modified in 1923). So it's a matter of using original materials and where there is damage and parts are missing, identifying the most likely original circuit configurations, just as it is for the pipework in most organs.

Lucien