Organ matters - Organs matter!

Sad to see this one (All Saints, Upper Norwood) go - it was a fine old beast of much distinction in its own way.  Glad to know most of it was salvaged.

There was some discussion about this (St. Osmund, Parkstone) on the Mander Invision Power Board a few months ago.  Apparently, the organ is still there, but in poor shape - at least partially playable.  I gather that the resident Orthodox congregation are cognisant of its historical importance, but obviously it doesn't fit into their way of worship.  Therefore, they are unlikely to try to get rid of it, but one can't expect them to maintain it either.

Thanks - I didn't know about those.  I haven't been in Christchurch Priory since the early days of the Compton-Makin, when Geoffrey Tristram was still alive.  Parkstone looked interesting when it was written-up after the rebuild.  A conscientious attempt to produce something like a Compton.  I've often wondered if it was a success.

Noel Mander was above all a practical organ builder - the instrument had to do the job.  He believed that sliding the pipework would not alter the tone.  Subsequently, a number of leading organ builders, including some from Europe, gave their opinion that the tone had not been altered in any way.  Sliding the pipework also preserves the pipes from collapsing around the mouths.  Once a pipe has done this, it will collapse again, no matter how often it is straightened out.  (I played a modern Belgian instrument a couple of years ago which had suffered considerable harm to its speech because the pipes were not only cone-tuned but had not been slightly thinnned at the top to facilitate this.  After a few years, the pipes were slid, and there has been no more trouble).

The lady who made the fuss about Packington did much valuable work in musicology, as well as being a fine player, but she could be wrong, and sometimes got a bee in her bonnet (one of her last writings, about the historic case at Old Radnor, was wildy off the mark).

Today, orchestral players could be found with instruments capable of playing at the old pitch.  Then, such approaches to authentic performance were in their infancy.  I think Mander's solution was the right one at the time and even now, for the sake of preserving the pipes, I would not say it was wrong.

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on December 10, 2011, 02:39:12 AM

Quote from: David Drinkell on December 03, 2011, 10:43:51 PMAt Bury St. Edmunds...  The new Harrison is a pedigree production, as well as having cases of which Stephen Dykes Bower would have been proud.

Dykes-Bower SHOULD be proud of them - he designed them!  ;D

No he didn't!  Dykes Bower made tentative designs for cases when the Nicholson organ was put in the new Quire, but they were never built.  The present cases were inspired by his designs and certainly display a similar mastery of the gothic style, but they are not his - if I could remember where to look, I'd find out who actually did the work!

Regarding Guildford, I've also heard the story about Maufe.  I'm not sure that it's true - after all, he designed a striking and controversial case for Bradford - perhaps he was influenced by clergy at the time.  The Positive was part of the original design, not an afterthought, although I think it was added a little while after the rest of the instrument was brought into use.  Some years ago, a certain amount of tweaking and rebalancing was done.  Afterwards, I was in on a conversation during which Andrew Millington (who was Organist at the time) said he reckoned it was now as good as this particular organ was ever going to be.  I like it, but I've only ever heard it from the quire or the console.  I know it's badly positioned with regard to the nave, and I hope they do something about those acoustic tiles.  As the old boys used to say, "Rushworths' could really do it when they wanted to" (as anyone who has been to Holy Rude, Stirling or St. James, Belfast will know).  I think they tried hard with this one and produced a notable job for the period.

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on December 10, 2011, 02:23:17 AM
St John's Cathedral, Newfoundland (Hope-Jones/Ingram of Hereford about 1900, Norman & Beard 1915, then a big rebuild by Casavant, 1927).

It was opened in 1904. By 1907, it was giving so much trouble that Norman & Beard  sent a rep to report, but the work wasn't done until 1915.  It continued to give trouble until, in 1927, Casavant built a new organ using some of the existing pipes, which - apart from a little tweaking in 1998 - is what we have today.  (The problems may not necessarily have been due to Hope-Jones's innovative mechanisms - steam heating systems have been the death of a number of British organs in North America, including a large 3m Harrison a few blocks away.  Apparently, British builders seasoned their timber differently and this led to problems with efficient heating systems and slider chests).

I can email a descriptive leaflet to anyone who is interested.

Seriously - the old Worcester organ was at the end of its tether.  There wasn't much Hope-Jones pipework left in it, apart from the Viole d'Orchestre, and what there was had been revoiced several times.  There are other organs with more unaltered Hope-Jones material which are far more deserving of attention. I have more HJ pipe-work in my organ here than there was at Worcester, and while I'm here it will be treasured.  I can see no justification for retaining a hotch-potch with a record of rebuilds every twenty years or less, whole sections of which weren't working (the transept divisions), containing stuff which would wear out at different raters and times, when there was an opportunity of creating a fine new instrument, perfectly suited to its purpose and environment. 

The Saint-Saens recording is exciting, but shows up the desperate state of some of the tuning.  This was symptomatic of the whole instrument.  One could never depend on it from one day to the next.

The organ had major work in 1896, 1925, 1937, 1948, 1965, 1067, 1973, 1978.  During that time there were also various attempts to provide organ tone in the nave, including a pleasant little Harrison two manual and later a Bradford electrone.  The old organ could sound fine, and the soft stops were nice, but in the end it was a terrible mish-mash both tonally and mechanically.  It was also too close to the seats in the quire for comfort.  Over a number of years, I never heard the transept organ.

The new organ was probably a better economic proposition, is better sited, has a fine pair of cases (the old ones were arguably not Scott's best work) and is part of a carefully-conceived long-term plan for organ provision throughout the building.  It will hopefully not need seven rebuilds during the next century and bids fair to make an outstanding reputation on more thjan a national scale.  At least we can give it a chance!

Let's make every effort to preserve our heritage, but admit that what they have at Worcester is a better solution than they had before.

Stephen Hamill, who builds Phoenix electronic instruments, has/had a big three manual example with a 64' reed on the pedal.  Big rumble!!

Hmmm - always an exception to prove the rule! :)

How the heck do you tune those??  I hoped they're properly fastened at the back (memories of a note in a tuner's book: 'One of the front pipes has fallen out').

The Harrison at Holy Trinity, St. Andrews, has the bottom octave of the 32' reed slung from the chamber roof (the only example of a 32' reed en chamade I know of!).

Barrie mentions quinted basses that just don't come off.  It seems to be a bit of a lottery at the best of times, with factors like position and acoustic affecting the result.  In any case, I have seldom met a satisfactory example of a 10 2/3 Quint - it's nearly always better to quint only the bottom octave and borrow the rest from the 16'.

Thinking on about 32's , an acoustic bass is probably best if the 32' effect is quiet.  If the rumble is there, it doesn't have to be loud to be effective.  On the other hand, a big 32' Open Wood can be used under quiet combinations.  The 32-and-strings beloved of cathedral organists was reputedly invented by Father Willis, who demonstrated it at St. Paul's Cathedral with the 32' wood and the Choir Dulciana.

I remember playing a two-manual, mostly extension organ in Walkers' works at Brandon in the seventies.  It was bound for Nigeria and it had an acoustic 32' although the only 16' flue bass was the Bourdon.  Walter Goodey said that they liked that sort of thing in that part of the world.

Those with back numbers of 'The Organ' will remember A Gordon Miller, who harped on about 32' stops incessantly.  Even the smallest organ ought to have one, according to him.  He even suggested using harmonium reeds.

Compton cubes - I think a lot of them weren't effective because of standing waves and such mysteries, and at best were rather amorphous.  There's quite a good one in the early Compton at All Souls, Belfast, but a much less successful example at St. Mark's, Dundela.  Polyphones worked much better and I think Comptons' used them in later instruments.  The early Miniaturas had 16' cubes, which sounded like blowing over the top of a bottle.  They switched to more conventional means in later models.

Ken Jones made a polyphone for an organ in Australia.  At the opening recital, a trumpeter used one of the basses, which was horizontal, to rest his music.  When the pipe spoke, the draught blew all the music sheets up in the air and over the edge of the gallery.

Hope-Jones - His last British association was with Ingram of Hereford.  During the construction of the organ for St. John's Anglican Cathedral, Newfoundland (pipework from which survives in the present organ, which I play every day), something happened which caused him to depart for North America in some haste.  It has been said that Ingram caught him in flagrante with an apprentice in the voicing shop.  HJ turned up unannounced in St. John's, offering to supply an organ from an American firm with whom he was now associated (Austin), which he said would be better and cost less.  At about the same time, the Rector was on leave in England and had visited the organ works, being much disconcerted to find that the instrument was not ready.  The adviser, Sir Percy Buck, urged the Vestry to keep to the contract with Ingram, which they did, and the organ was eventually dedicated in 1904.  It had a scheme almost identical to the Hope-Jones/N&B organ at Llandaff Cathedral, was rebuilt and moved by N&B in 1915 and totally replaced in 1927 with a four-manual Casavant incorporating some of the old pipes.

Skinner - EMS was a victim of the times.  His organs were wonderful but went out of fashion and he spent the latter half of a very long life bemoaning the fact.  Some of his venom was directed at G. Donald Harrison, who acquired control of Aeolian Skinner after Hudson Marks died.  The latter had gained financial control from Skinner, and had supported the rise of Harrison.  Some of Skinner's claims were downright untrue, such as the letter in 'The Organ' claiming that the organ in St. Thomas, Fifth Avenue, New York was entirely his work, when it had been completely rebuilt and revoiced by Harrison (whom Skinner claimed to be nothing more than an office assistant).  Harrison never entered publicly into the controversy, considering that Skinner was making enough of a fool of himself and any reply would serve little purpose.

Acoustic Basses - Ah! back on thread!  The organ here has 12 tubby stopped quint pipes which draw with the bottom octave of the Tibia Profunda (sic - it's a normal Open Wood) produce, in our acoustic, a pretty good 32'.  One can use it alone with the Swell strings. The Presbyterian Church up the hill (an otherwise wholly excellent early Letourneau rebuild) quints the 16' Open on itself, resulting in an effect which is unsatisfactory even under full organ.

The Willis at St. Magnus Cathedral, Kirkwall, uses the Bourdon in quints on itself for the lowest five notes, but the fourth below the 16' in the remainder of the bottom octave.  Now, although this is against the rules of physics, it works very well and avoids the 'Pink Panther' effect which most 10 2/3 quints display when you get out of the lowest notes.

Another superb Letourneau - Holy Trinity RC, New York City - has an electronic 32 sub bass, which helps to produce a very big-organ sound from a relatively small (but very cleverly planned) instrument.
http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/HolyTrinityRC.html

St. Patrick's, Ballymacarrett, Belfast
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&)rec_index=D01426
has a 32' which is the open wood quinted on itself in the bottom octave, then playing at 32' pitch but with the quint as well for the rest of the way up.  The result is something between a diaphone and a nuclear explosion.  Whether this is an original feature or perhaps a mistake in the wiring from a subsequent overhaul, I don't know.  The church is quite big and the organ originally just a normal Great-to-Fifteenth, Swell-to-Mixture-and-two-reeds job.  Somewhere along the line, it acquired a 16-8-4 trumpet rank firing west, which is of tuba power and completely obliterates everything else.  I suppose that in the heyday of Harland & Wolff, congregations were so big that something drastic was needed to keep them in tow.

I played this when it was in Ipswich.  Unfortunately, I didn't date my notes in those days, but it must have been before 1975.  Bishop's were just completing an overhaul with tonal revision at the time, and the Great Trumpet wasn't in.

http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=H00679

St. Clement's is a fine big medieval church, and the organ sounded well, although the north-east chapel site wasn't ideal.  Bishops' work left it with a slightly odd but versatile scheme.

The church was badly vandalised after closure and in 1996 a fire destroyed the roof.  This has since been replaced and the church cleaned up.  Although when I last heard there wasn't any specific purpose in mind for it, it has been used for occasional services, concerts, etc.  Its old congregation never completely abandoned it, and would open it for special occasions.

There's a similar sort of beast in Stradishall Chuch, Suffolk.
www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D00550

A very odd machine with GGG compass and the stops worked by large rocking tablets which operate in reverse - you push the top of the tablet to bring the stop on.  It's obviously quite old but with a gormless case, presumably added in 1956 when it was installed here.

This is a fine, robust organ and would be especially excellent as a teaching instrument, since one has to really play it - there are no short cuts via pistons.  The added Pedal Trombone raises it into a different class and the whole beast sounds very exciting.

It is historic, insofar as not only was it purchased by David Sanger as his residence organ, but he played it as organist of the church many years before.

Quote from: pcnd5584 on December 04, 2011, 12:35:51 PM
I am not sure that I would agree that the old Worcester organ was awkward to handle. I had to play it (near the end of its life) for a long week-end of services for a visiting choir, in 2004. I found it easy and very comfortable to play, Of course one had to be careful not to play too loudly for the choir and congregation in the Quire. The same is true at Salisbury and Winchester (and, in all probabilty, Durham). Interestingly, the Worcester organ was not in the parlous state that I had expected, from reading what had been written about it.

I found that everything (except for the Swell Gedeckt 8ft) worked perfectly. There were no cyphers, no apparent shortage of wind - or any other kind of malfunction. Instead, I discovered a wealth of beautiful quieter registers, in addition to a majestic and powerful tutti - which seemed to me to fit this building like a glove.

With regard to Bury Saint Edmunds; the new organ does indeed look spectacular. However, having played the old organ, I presume the reference to 'old work' refers to the action and/or winding or soundboards. I think , on balance, that I would have preferred the previous stoplist - the present instrument is rather smaller (by around twenty speaking stops) - with, in particular, an odd Pedal reed section - 32, 16, 16 and 16. The instrument has also lost an entire section, the previous organ having contained a Positif in addition to a Choir Organ. There is now, as far as I can see, a shortage of useful, quiet 8ft, registers - particularly on the lowest clavier, which has lost, amongst other ranks, a beautiful, resful Unda Maris, which formed an undulating rank together with the Dulciana.

Yes, you're right about the old stuff at Bury. The old organ, on paper, had more potential, indeed it was a really fine and comprehensive  scheme.  However, in practice the sound just didn't get down into the nave.  The new organ has more space and is planned to be effective in more of the building.  I agree about the odd disposition of Pedal reeds - you'd think an extra octave or two and a couple of drawstops could have been worked in! 

I know not everyone will agree, but I admired Maufe's Nave Organ case at Bradford (now, sadly, gone).  I thought his extension of the building was admirable, too.

In Belfast, the short-lived Church of St. Barnabas, Duncairn Gardens (demolished in 1995) was obviously inspired by Guildford, although I don't think it was actually by Maufe.  It was a fine building and had excellent acoustics.  The Evans & Barr organ (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=C00301) sounded really grand.  Possibly a coat of paint with a hard finish on the ceiling would improve the acoustic at Guildford.  Some buildings in North America (including St. John the Divine, New York City) have been treated to alleviate the effect of previous acoustic treatments.

I feel there is a certain amount of confusion on this thread.

Diocesan Quotas pay primarily for running the diocese, not the cathedral, although the cathedral may get a cut in view of its role as the mother church.  Cathedrals are often strapped for cash too, although they may attract the occasional large donation.  At Bury St. Edmunds, for example, the wonderful new central tower came about because the architect Stephen Dykes Bower bequeathed a large sum on the condition it was spent on building.  The Lottery chipped in a larger sum and the parishes were not asked for huge wads of cash. 

IMHO, the well-worn description of Guildford Cathedral as a bus station or a garage is unfair.  I find it a fine example of its period, impressive externally and inspiring within.  I could live with the organ, too, although it's certainly bady placed (like Chester), the acoustics are poor and I think it's a shame the opportunity to provide a striking case was missed.

Chelmsford Cathedral serves the most populous diocese, apart from London, in the Church of England.  There would be little point subsuming Essex into other dioceses.  Chelmsford has also made great efforts to raise the profile and standard of its music (as have most parish church cathedrals in the last twenty or thirty years).

The Worcester Cathedral organ was a sad hotch-potch by the end and did not contain much original Hope-Jones pipework.  It was, as had been pointed out, an awkward beast to drive, the Gilbert Scott cases were arguably not his best examples and a lot of the pipework (including the Large Open) was situated too close to the singers and quire congregation for comfort.  A start from scratch was surely a better proposition than yet another revamp, or even a compromise in order to use existing, altered pipes.  Similarly, at Bury St. Edmunds the previously Nicholson organ was a fine conception but contained a fair amount of old work which shortened its reliable life.  The new Harrison is a pedigree production, as well as having cases of which Stephen Dykes Bower would have been proud.

I wouldn't call Downside 'much-maligned', except insofar as some people tend to carp at any extension organ.  If all such instruments incorporated the standards of voicing and workmanship one is accustomed to find in Compton's work, the breed would doubtless have a better reputation.  In the specific case of Downside, it's rather off the beaten track and is very little known.  Those who have taken the trouble to experience it in person are generally impressed. 

References to Perth appear to confuse the organs of the Episcopal Cathedral and the Kirk of St. John.  St. John had the Rothwell, the Cathedral a thorough-going mongrel.  The sixties Rushworth rebuild at the Cathedral was not highly regarded, although with careful handling it could sound better than it deserved.  It had been somewhat tweaked during Alastair Pow's time as organist and Sandy Edmonstone's rebuild, complete with Willis console from St. Giles, Edinburgh, seems to have pulled it together in a remarkable way.  Speaking as a one-time organist of a Scottish cathedral, my impression of Sandy Edmonstone and Michael McDonald is that both are honest, conscientious and skilful, and do the best they can with the resources available.

St. Aidan, Belfast - not a bad organ, but depressed area.  Probably not much money for organ work.
St. Patrick, Coleraine - big, rich church, but into praise bands.  Organist in my day managed to run a good choir as well, though - don't know if he's still there.  Organ a very shoddy rebuild (e.g. Choir organ soundboard perched crooked on the floor of the chamber. Swell/Choir coupler 'accidentally' omitted from console), but some good old pipework.  Respectable local builder reckoned it had potential, but maybe they're not that interested and a big electrone seemed attractive.
Fortwilliam Presbyterianm, Belfast - very big church (architecturally outstanding), Davies rebuild only partially functional when I played it about twelve years ago.  No way they could afford to have it done up.
Dunluce -  1m Cramer & Wood. I played for a wedding on this nearly 20 years ago.  It has since been moved to Armoy Church, a few miles away (replacing a harmonium) and they've got a toaster.