Hi!
A little while ago I was called in to see what I could do for an instrument under immediate threat:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=A00257
A last concert was played by a brilliant organist, Mark Cyphus, and I recorded and "YouTubed" the concert and thanks to an enthusiastic organist and builder Paul Derrett, it was taken to a church in South Wales,
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=K00892
where I hope to hear of its inaugural recital in due course.
A comment this morning on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpKoX9hzWs
demonstrates just why everyone's contributions to this forum are SO important:
Quotewhat??
why would anyone spend money nowadays for something like this?
I hope that people will demonstrate the answer to that with even more vigour.
Best wishes
David P
Which is why I am somewhat befuddled by the few (one?) reply to the posts I made about the cathedral in Montreal, Canada, that the Archdiocese wants to destroy a 100+ year-old cathedral
to build low-income housing on the property...
There are "extenuating" circumstances... The local Fire Department closed the building a year ago
for "safety reasons"...
I am sure its condition is far better than Hammerwood when you first saw it...
And inside the cathedral lives a very recently restored and fully playable Cassavant pipe organ for which Henry Willis back in the 1920's had the occasion to visit and play...
Eric
KB7DQH
helps more if the enthausiams is shared......
Quote from: barniclecompton on October 11, 2010, 09:15:03 AM
helps more if the enthausiams is shared......
Hi!
I'm sorry to say that enthusiasm is only generated when one shows people something so fantastic that they sit up and take notice. What you have been doing in recent posts is absolutely superb. If one _beleives_ that something is worthy of enthusiasm, then by enthusing enough, other expressions of enthusiasm will come to join you and assist in multiplications of your work as a product of your belief.
Following your path can be a lonely and painful process, but it's always worthwhile in the end.
My experience with discussion boards are that there are always lurkers, greatly interested in everything but who sometimes rarely come out of the shadows. It sometimes takes a lot to get them to be brave enough to start talking. All comments on discussion-boards have to be taken with a smile on one's face and no-one should ever take offense, as offense is very very rarely intended. Some people are just blunter than others . . . and one has to understand this. So PLEASE just carry on expressing your enthusiasm with your long background and knowledge of the King of Instruments - after all that's why the Wurlitzer was popularly referred to as mighty . . . wasn't it?
Best wishes
David P
David is completely correct with his comment that showing more people the majesty and magnificence of the organ generates enthusiasm.
Fundamentally, in this current day and age, the showing of organs to the unconverted (I mean in a non religious manner) is getting increasingly more and more difficult because the masses choose not to go to the buildings containing these wonderful instruments, i.e. church. We can discuss until the cows come home about the demise of congregations, but fundamentally the organ needs to be made aware of outside of its normal home.
I would love to see city councils take redundant organs and put them into city or town council buildings. The Victorians used to build halls for meetings, which would normally contain pipe organs; Manchester Town hall has a very significant Cavaillé-Coll, somewhat unused unfortunately. I know this is obviously a crazy idea and the finance department would frown upon such frivolous things, however not such a crazy idea when it comes to the survival of the pipe organ.
The pipe organ's repertoire is so vast that it is not limited to the classical greats, but is also capable of show casing modern pieces, for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtKgOZX3DcU
To the aficionado this would not be top of the list of musical choices, but to the unconverted it would ignite a spark and a connection between modern day life and the pipe organ.
I know that many see the pipe organ purely in the context of religious worship in a holy place, however it is multitalented and I believe it can draw people's enthusiasm from outside the normal religious environment if given a chance.
Just my thought for the day!
Marc
Quote from: Holditch on October 12, 2010, 02:17:45 PM
David is completely correct with his comment that showing more people the majesty and magnificence of the organ generates enthusiasm.
Fundamentally, in this current day and age, the showing of organs to the unconverted (I mean in a non religious manner) is getting increasingly more and more difficult because the masses choose not to go to the buildings containing these wonderful instruments, i.e. church. We can discuss until the cows come home about the demise of congregations, but fundamentally the organ needs to be made aware of outside of its normal home.
Dear Marc
Yes - spot on. The people who threw bad eggs and rotten tomatos at me on the Hauptwerk Forum do not understand this nor what I have been doing in bringing my "Beast" out of the cathedral and into a secular venue.
My next ambition is to construct a portable instrument - I have four manuals at the ready - to take into schools - but there is only a point in doing this if it's going to be used - so that means schools and school beaks who are receptive and interested - and organists better than I who see the point of such enthusiasm and are ENTHUSIASTIC to come and play it, whereever, and of course there's no money in it (unless we can find sponsorship) so very much for the pure desire of the spread of enthusiasm.
Why stop at schools? Town centres and shopping arcades? If buskers can busk then why can't organists be the Kings of busking?
It's for this reason that I hope that this forum might call together people with enthusiasm to join together in such projects.
Best wishes
David P
Every now and again I see something like thishttp://www.waterlandblog.com/2010/10/11/go-from-bach-to-broadway-at-des-moines-united-methodist-church-nov-6/ (http://www.waterlandblog.com/2010/10/11/go-from-bach-to-broadway-at-des-moines-united-methodist-church-nov-6/)
So, it appears we are not alone in our battle to "bring the king" to the people or in this case the church is throwing its doors open to all to enjoy an instrument that they are rightly proud of and see it as a resource to further their ministerial goals.
I find it intriguing that the Calvinist churches in Northern Continental Europe did NOT use the organ for their religious services (Choral music unaccompanied by instruments of any type being the order of the day) but had large instruments installed anyway for the performance of secular music when the building was not otherwise used for religious purposes... Especially as the church building was often the largest structure in town...
I found another interesting blog which was geared to Basketball fans, having to do with what could be done to make better the "fan experience" at games...
And the first half-dozen reply comments were all Organ related! Like... "More Organ Music, Please!"
and such...
Large municipal baseball parks built in the 1920's here in America generally included a significant pipe organ, as much a part of the stadium as home plate... Usually with the console oriented so the organist could view the action on the field and play whatever music seemed appropriate 'based'
(I know, bad pun ;) on what was observed.
I know of no surviving pipe organs currently in service at baseball parks, although they make do with electronics feeding the Public Address... Yuck. (Probably why I would rather attend an Organ Concert than a baseball game given a choice ;D
Basketball and Hockey venues are actually ideally suited to the installation of REAL pipe organs
especially if the pipework could be made light enough to suspend from the ceiling, ideally above the
central scoreboard/video display unit that generally has a huge stack of speakers for Public Address purposes as the seating is arranged around a much smaller court than say, "football".......
Until a new, modern stadium was built, the Chicago Blackhawks Hockey team was accompanied by
a monster of a Barton "theater" organ... Six Manuals! Alas, no room was made for the organ in the new stadium, the pipework was destroyed when a fire enveloped the facility where it was being stored, and only the console survives.
The recent Nobel Prize in Physics was given to a pair of fellas who may have developed a material
that might be the key to such installations...http://www.deccanherald.com/content/104044/promise-graphene.html (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/104044/promise-graphene.html)
Moreover, virtually all of the new concert halls being constructed here in the USA all are equipped with 4000+ pipes arranged over 3-5 manuals and pedals, many with mechanical action and attached consoles, most of them having been built by C. B. Fisk & Company of Boston, although a European company completed an organ in a concert hall in of all places, Madison, Wisconsin......
That "house organ" I mentioned in that section of the forum was at one time installed in a public High School...
Two Public High Schools in the Seattle School District have pipe organs installed in their respective
auditoriums... Franklin High contains what was once a cinema organ, a Kimball originally installed in
a theater in Everett, Washington, sold to the Seattle School District, and installed originally in Queen Anne High until the closure of that school in 1960. The organ was removed, restored, and installed
at Franklin... http://www.pstos.org/instruments/wa/seattle/franklin.htm (http://www.pstos.org/instruments/wa/seattle/franklin.htm) Roosevelt High School contains a redundant organ rescued by the Pipe Organ Foundation, rebuilt and rehoused at the high school.http://www.pipeorganfoundation.org/index.html (http://www.pipeorganfoundation.org/index.html)
The Washington School for the Blind in Vancouver, WA, also has a pipe organ, an Estey I believe...
with an interesting history. http://organsociety.bsc.edu/SingleOrganDetails.php?OrganID=24886 (http://organsociety.bsc.edu/SingleOrganDetails.php?OrganID=24886)
A blind friend of mine who works for the state indicates the organ has in fact been restored and is again playable ;) 8)
A bit closer to home the South Kitsap School District has purchased land to be used to construct a badly-needed second High school, so an opportunity exists here to ensure that space for a suitable organ is included in the building plans 8) The Performing Arts Center in the current building just does not have any available space for a pipe organ. :'(
But more needs to be done...
As far as a 'Touring Pipe Organ' The Foort Moeller has been installed in a concert hall... In California... so its wandering days are over. Guess I'm going to have to "bump" another thread...
Eric
KB7DQH
Changed my mind and am bumping this one instead, mainly because I found the link to a page on Youtube where an organist has been improvising his own transcriptions of music more familiar to
younger ears...
http://www.youtube.com/user/pgsoundtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/pgsoundtube)
There is also a rather amusing one where someone played a song entitled "Mr. Crowley" on their church pipe organ, and then overdubbed the original song... Might be over on the "suggestions" column if you look at the link above but not promising anything...
There are some really talented organists on Youtube, I just wished they all had decent audio recording facilities...
Eric
KB7DQH
Hi!
Eric - sorry to interrupt your line of thought but on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXx_IWTc_9c
this evening there is the comment:
QuoteI'm by no means an organ expert, but that really sounded wonderful - I really like the low bass notes on the pedals such as at 0:26 - they really add character to the piece.
YouTube is a great tool . . .
It's for this reason that it's great when performers are happy for people to post extracts from inspirational concerts and frustrating when performers are "prissey" about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IUG2YM1aHE is a magical performance - and uploaded over 2800 times . . .
Best wishes
David P
And to take the thread in yet another direction.
I finally saw an announcement for an organ concert to be performed on an electronic instrument...
The SECOND electronic instrument installed at that church to replace an "aging" Moller pipe organ...
http://petersmusicnews.com/2010/10/organist-to-play-all-new-digital-organ-at-church-of-good-shepherd/ (http://petersmusicnews.com/2010/10/organist-to-play-all-new-digital-organ-at-church-of-good-shepherd/)
QuoteThe new Rogers organ is the result of nearly 20 years of development by technologists who insisted that a digital organ could be just as—if not even more—exciting in performance and sound that an air-driven pipe organ.
Quoted from the article linked to above... Really??? Likely a gimmick to get folks to attend the concert?
Or sell "supertoasters" :o :( >:( :'(
Eric
KB7DQH
OK..... Following the previous commercial announcement :o It is time to get back to the program...
Quoteand uploaded over 2800 times . . .
I suppose you mean "viewed"... But the performance was "posted" or "uploaded" to Youtube only ONCE...
I found a "non-traditional" organ performance that was so amazing and exciting for those who attended the concert (and brought video recording equipment) it was "
uploaded" over 50 times to Youtube... So, there are more than 50 recordings of this performance from different locations within the hall, all of varying quality in terms of audio and video, some watched more than others, and the total number of "views"... I didn't bother to count but its in the TENS OF THOUSANDS... 8)
Well, the performance was, to a "classical organ fan" likely to be less than inspiring, :o
However, to the audience that didn't matter. All one has to do is read through the thousands of comments on the 50-plus uploads to realize that the younger generations seem to be content with
a "mediocre" organ performance at best :-\
One must bear in mind the music was actually written for and recorded in album form with
a real pipe instrument. Its performance live has very rarely taken place because of the lack of an available instrument :( and thus a real treat for the audience of fans to "hear it live"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33WTdVRuBUs&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33WTdVRuBUs&feature=related)
or evenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IwXyWnqgU&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IwXyWnqgU&feature=related)
So... Could we get them to play Boardwalk Hall when the Midmer-Losh 5550 roars back to life?
Now
that would really be exciting...
Eric
KB7DQH
Quote from: KB7DQH on October 12, 2010, 07:43:56 PM
Changed my mind and am bumping this one instead, mainly because I found the link to a page on Youtube where an organist has been improvising his own transcriptions of music more familiar to
younger ears...
http://www.youtube.com/user/pgsoundtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/pgsoundtube)
There is also a rather amusing one where someone played a song entitled "Mr. Crowley" on their church pipe organ, and then overdubbed the original song... Might be over on the "suggestions" column if you look at the link above but not promising anything...
There are some really talented organists on Youtube, I just wished they all had decent audio recording facilities...
Eric
KB7DQH
I think that the cleric of said church might have had something to say about his organist playing "Mr Crowley" on the organ... it's a song by former Black Sabbath frontman Ozzy Osbourne (off his 1980 album, Blizzard of Ozz), and the eponymous Mr (Aleister - sic) Crowley was a notorious occultist, promiscuous homosexual, freemason and drug abuser... I can say this for Muse, they're good musicians. Their frontman, Matt Bellamy, may not be much cop at the organ, but he's bloody marvellous on the piano (when he was buying a piano, he avoided today's excessively-bright, metallic Steinways and went straight to Bosendorfer - a man of taste, I think you'll agree! - and bought one of their huge Imperials). Incidentally, here's the organ on which that Muse song was originally recorded:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=A00519 (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=A00519)
Unfortunately, the song itself seems to be vaguely anti-religious, anti-Christian (take a look at this to decide for yourself: http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/megalomania-lyrics-muse/67baca79de767f2048256bc700109818 (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/megalomania-lyrics-muse/67baca79de767f2048256bc700109818)) and, when it was being recorded, the priest at Bathwick asked to see the lyrics, and Bellamy just wrote a new set of (very innocuous) lyrics to deceive him.
Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on October 24, 2010, 03:45:55 PM
Unfortunately, the song itself seems to be vaguely anti-religious, anti-Christian
. . . It's common knowledge that the Devil has all the best tunes . . . isn't it?
This is one reason why organs should be able to be enjoyed outside ecclesiatical surroundings. (For those who enjoy Religion, one might hope that if people enjoy the instrument then the call of the instrument might enable people to find christianity. I have remarked elsewhere however that historically Christianity has not been a brilliant advertisement for the power of Christs's teachings.
Best wishes
David P
This event certainly shows some promise... Some selected quotes from the following article...
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2010/10/music-review-los-angeles-bach-festival-concert-at-the-first-congregational-church.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2010/10/music-review-los-angeles-bach-festival-concert-at-the-first-congregational-church.html)
Quote
Everyone in the classical music business is trying to attract new and younger audiences to the great Western tradition, and First Congregational Church of Los Angeles is no exception. But who knew that the oldest Protestant church in the city could also be one of the coolest venues around for spreading the musical gospel? On Friday, five food trucks were serving eager lines of customers at the curb, while KCRW's Tom Schnabel spun everything from jazzy saxophone riffs to Bollywood favorites in the church's spacious forecourt.
It was all part of a pre-concert party for the concluding weekend of the 77th Annual Los Angeles Bach Festival, which ends Sunday at the church with a performance of the composer's "St. John Passion." According to R. Scott Colglazier, senior minister, it's "the oldest Bach festival west of the Mississippi."
Quote
But before the concert, people could be heard talking about the church's organ. Indeed, in the benign war to keep classical music thriving, First Congregational houses a secret weapon -- the largest church pipe organ in the world. Virgil Fox performed on it; so did Maurice and Marie-Madeleine Duruflé. And when it came time to unleash the monster, Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor, the church's organist-in-residence, S. Wayne Foster, did not disappoint. As the piece began, the chandelier lights flickered on and off a la "Phantom of the Opera," delighting a capacity audience that remained enthralled until the score's rousing climax shook the rafters.
QuoteAfter the concert, it was clear Bach's music, which no doubt put people in a good mood back in the 18th century, had not lost its special magic in 2010. One smiling guy in his twenties exiting among the diverse crowd was overheard telling a pal how much he enjoyed the music. But, he added, "Your butt sure gets sore sitting in a pew." Sit he did, however, from 9 p.m. until the concert ended at 10:45. Considering that the church's elaborate presentation was an experiment, that's probably a good sign that it succeeded.
-- Rick Schultz
So here is an example of an organ enjoyed WITHIN an ecclesiastical surrounding ??? ;) 8)
Eric
KB7DQH
And yet another reason......
http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2010/11/good-luck-finding-organist.html (http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2010/11/good-luck-finding-organist.html)
QuoteNow, it seems, many organs have gone silent due to a lack of people skilled to play them. Well, actually, it is a lack of skilled people who are willing to put in the hours for what has become a low paying and high maintenance job.
QuoteThe matter is not always money in a parish, I've had numerous organists who refused to be paid, in this case one must make sure that your volunteers have the best possible instrument and that it is in good condition, as well as encouragement,(do what you can to make their efforts a joy) support and the occasional workshop if they're so inclined. I also visited my in-laws recently renovated Catholic church, everything was repaired, restored, refinished except for the Pipe organ, that was left to rot away by choice while a keyboard is used instead. The money was there for repair and restoration, but it wasn't seen as a priority.
I have as of yet not looked at the ABC news article linked to in the blog, but will when I "get a minute"...
Eric
KB7DQH
And now for a spot of "good news" 8)
Occasionally the "average blogger" posts something like this:http://materfamiliasknits.blogspot.com/2011/01/loving-san-francisco.html (http://materfamiliasknits.blogspot.com/2011/01/loving-san-francisco.html)
from which I will quote:
QuoteSerendipitously discovered Grace Cathedral during an organ rehearsal -- magnificent! if you've never heard a pipe organ played by a superb musician -- and not a recording, but on site, in the sacred acoustics it was made for -- put it on your list for 2011. I walked the indoor labyrinth (there's also an outdoor one I'd like to walk later) there as I listened, testing out the meditative, spiritual benefits on behalf of my good friend and neighbour Carol -- I may be a convert!
QuoteTown centres and shopping arcades? If buskers can busk then why can't organists be the Kings of busking?
And then This event http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp_RHnQ-jgU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp_RHnQ-jgU) which has gone "completely viral"...
shows just what can happen a hundred years after you purchase a disused pipe organ, install it in your department store and expand it over the next two decades into one of the world's biggest musical instruments...
Eric
KB7DQH
I " found" a "church organ discussion" if you will- in a VERY unlikely place...
and follows is the link...
I would encourage all who stumble here to "Stop, Open, and REED!"
http://www.stainlesssteelcoffeepercolator.net/would-you-rather-have-your-church-go-all-organ-music-all-the-time-or-be-stuck-making-the-coffee-every-sunday.htm (http://www.stainlesssteelcoffeepercolator.net/would-you-rather-have-your-church-go-all-organ-music-all-the-time-or-be-stuck-making-the-coffee-every-sunday.htm)
My father, earlier in his life taught English and Music... Even won a substantial cash prize for one of his compositions... invented a word that adequately described most of the coffee served at church on Sunday...
"Churchy"
Basically, the opposite of "Truckers' Coffee
For the uninitiated in these matters, "Truckers' Coffee" is brewed so as to hold up a spoon placed vertically into the cup... Not unlike Espresso...
You can guess, I think, what "churchy" coffee is like.
All too often there I believe is a perception that the Organ is "churchy"... Especially in Church?
Some of the responses in the link above seem to think so and thus they care not for the sound of the "King of Instruments"... the balance being far more "positiv" ;D Great ;D Swell ;D...etc...
Eric
KB7DQH
... Because people write letters to the editor of newspapers like this...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/8338853/Going-electric-to-keep-the-church-organ-in-tune.html#disqus_thread (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/8338853/Going-electric-to-keep-the-church-organ-in-tune.html#disqus_thread)
Eric
KB7DQH
"Only the discerning purist can detect the sound differences between the two."
There must be lots of purists out there, because I can definately tell the difference!
Hi
True. Often digital organs sound impressive for a while and then the sound starts to pall and the compromises show up - but getting a church that's invested several tens of thousands of pounds (potentially) on a digital organ is unlikely to admit that it's not fit for purpose!
Every Blessing
Tony
I'm resurrecting discussion on this thread as it seems better to use an existing one rather than start up yet another. However it takes a slightly different direction ...
I am assembling some thoughts for an article which I might post on my website in due course about why there is so strong a decline in interest in the organ. Therefore I would value your feedback, and if I use any of what you say I will of course acknowledge you in the article if it appears (unless you do not want this).
First, I want to keep this as short as possible. Second, and partly because of the first, I'll limit discussion to the secular aspect of the organ rather than its strong connection to the church. There seem to be at least the following issues:
1. Repertoire. Bach is fantastic of course, but even his greatest devotees (among whom I number myself) occasionally have to broaden their diet. Yet what else of real quality is there? Why did hardly any other great composer compose much for the organ? Even among those who are generally regarded as 'organ' composers, such as Franck, Guilmant and others from the 19th century French school, a disappointingly large proportion of their output is merely pretty dire note-spinning even though their best works are fabulous. Elgar? Hardly, apart from 'the' Sonata. Etc, etc.
2. Playing standards. We have recently discussed the excellent playing of Paul Derrett, so now let's look at the other side of the coin. I find the standard of live performance deviates rather too far and too often from what one ought to expect (I'm referring to professional players here). As examples, I once went to the obligatory Proms organ recital at the Albert Hall, given by a famous Continental player and pedagogue. Yet despite the lunatic and distracting antics of TWO registrants, he shuddered to a dead stop in the middle of Widor's Toccata (yes, you know the one). The slow hand clap at the end was so embarrassing, and I agreed with the chap sitting next to me who said he would be demanding his money back!
Then there was the time at Chichester cathedral when the performer (a former cathedral organist) brought on full organ by mistake in the middle of one of Mendelssohn's quietest movements. I was sitting opposite the console in the quire, and we nearly jumped through the roof.
Then there was a benefit concert for the Ally Pally organ, played some years back on the incomplete instrument by a variety of players, all of whom are well known. A friend and myself spent an entire Sunday going to London and back for this event, picking up my sister en route. We all regretted it. Apart from anything else, some chap suddenly got out of his seat and ran up the hall while one of the players was introducing his programme and shouted at the top of his voice "WE CAN'T HEAR YOU". I didn't know who he was at the time but was later informed it was one of the Willis dynasty. (If it was not, I apologise. I am merely repeating what I was told). The whole thing was a disgrace from start to finish.
Recorded items are usually better, but even here there can be problems because editing a performance from a reverberant ambience is next to impossible. As an example, one of Thalben-Ball's tracks (Chichester again - and I can mention him by name because one can't libel the deceased) contains the most appalling and intrusive edit at one point where he must have made a terrible mess for some reason.
I could go on, but need not for the following reason. Like most folk, I don't spend my entire waking life going to organ recitals or listening to CD's of them. Therefore, it is just not good enough to spend a lot of time and money getting to a venue, parking the car, queuing, and then doing the same thing in reverse afterwards when this sort of thing must be happening quite often on the basis of my relatively sparse random sampling of the scene. And then there's the cost of the tickets.
3. Quality of the organs. Apart from their tonal qualities, which are highly variable, the number of times organs fail during a performance is just as unacceptable as the quality of the playing. Usually these organs have electric actions. The Royal Festival Hall organ has failed completely at least once to my certain knowledge, as has that at St Peter's, Nottingham. Examples of organs which have been out of service for extended periods for similar reasons are too numerous to mention.
Excuse me guys, but are we supporting a joke instrument? I know this is a provocative question which concludes a provocative post, but the point is that the organ will die if non-organists continue to see too much of this sort of thing. Bums on seats are what matter. I am reminded of an occasion a few years back (it was reported in Organists' Review) when a BBC music programming executive stormed out of a meeting at which Margaret Phillips, then the RCO President, was speaking. He then wrote a piece in the press asking exactly why should the BBC put out more organ music, which we organ nuts continually want them to do.
Thanks for reading!
Colin Pykett
Dear Colin
I think that one can't entirely dismiss the correlation between numbers of young people who are introduced to church and or the concept of God at all nowadays and the numbers of children who are introduced to the organ, whether at the cinema or at the church . . . where else?
Best wishes
David P
Regrettaby, some of the problems have been caused by 'top name' recitalists.
Many years ago several consecutive recitals at the Fairfield Hall included Bach's Passacaglia & Fugue in their programme. It is a fine piece and well worthy of more than one hearing, but not four in a row! Then there was the recitalist who played all three of Franck's Chorales as the entire second half, one straight after the other. The Fairfield Hall acoustic is not helpful to organ tone and the organ is far from satisfactory. Time and again recitalists blast our ears with 'wrong note' music and then wonder why people do not attend organ recitals.
There are interpretive 'fads' too. For example, this nonsense that every group of three notes in baroque music has to have a slur over the first two and the third staccato becomes as irritating as the notion that all romantic music (apart from the occasional piece of Franck) is 'unclean'.
Years later it was a joy to hear William Davies, with George Blackmore and Ralph Downes, show just what can be done (at the Fairfield Hall) when they 'let their hair down'. Unfortunately, by that time the real damage had been done and organ recitals never recovered at the Fairfield Hall.
Many of the newer instruments are built in the 'neo-baroque' style, whatever that may be. It is quite clear that the one thing they are not is 'baroque' and that is obvious to anyone who has ever heard such an instrument. Yet listening to them is very wearing and they simply cannot give a reasonable account of much of the standard repertoire.
Reverting for a moment to Colin's point about the Elgar Sonata, the first movement is really rather good, but it loses momentum thereafter. The 'Second Sonata' is an arrangement, approved by the composer, by Ivor Atkins of the 'Severn Suite' whose original score was dedicated to G B Shaw. (Elgar lived in Severn House.) It is much better music than the first Sonata yet is eschewed by many recitalists because it is an arrangement. Happily, things are changing, for there are now CDs of, for example, Hollins' beautiful music played on nice organs. but the damage remains and the blame rests with quite a few of the 'big names' of the organ world.
Yet all is not lost, for there are still a few recitalists who can command an audience, despite the ridicule that is unjustly heaped on them by musical snobs. Let us never forget that music (including organ music) is part of the entertainment industry.
Like Colin, organ music is but a part of the appreciation my wife and I have for music. Yet, even in orchestral concerts, bad programme planning can cause difficulties. There was a series of concerts at the Fairfield Hall given by the Mozart Players. About one third of the total time in each concert (it was always the last piece of the first half) was given over to some ghastly piece of tuneless music. The only way one knew it has finished was when the players put their instruments down. Again, people voted with their feet. Musical snobbery is the real enemy of music and it is not restricted to organs, by any means.
Barry Williams
What "scares" me is that there is at least one organist who understands these issues completely...
and his opinions generally line up with the assertions being recently presented by Colin and Barry...
Can you guess which one ???
"Classical" music in general is suffering along these same lines however without the instrument/performer failure modes described above, but for the rest of the reasons documented so well by others here.
But organists other than the one I alluded to earlier take a slightly different approach in the hope that they can develop their own audience following, whether in-person or via electronic media distribution.
I posted a news article in the "Organ Concerts" section of this forum of just such a performance.
I am thinking that based on my limited observations the tide may be turning at least here in the USA, but only just...
Eric
KB7DQH
Many thanks, everybody, for these constructive replies. I would like to dip into them when writing my web article in due course, but anonymously (i.e. you will not be mentioned by name).
Responding to David who said one cannot dismiss the connection between the organ and the church, I completely agree, but I only considered its secular status in my post for the sake of brevity on this board. It's not a simple issue though, and interestingly it has surfaced recently in discussions which have been reported in recent issues of Organists' Review among others. One well known cathedral organist (I won't name him) takes a dismissive stance along the lines of "yes, the organ is elitist, and yes most cathedral organists come from privileged backgrounds, as do their clergy, and I don't give a fig". I have a horrible suspicion that's rather a short term and narrow view which won't get church music, and possibly him personally, very far though.
I'm not sure I go along either with those at the opposite pole of the argument who say that the church is dying and therefore that we should detach the organ from it as quickly as possible so that it can flourish purely in the secular environment. From some of what I see, the church is not actually dying at all. Not far from where I live are two very different examples of what is happening more widely I suspect. One is a traditional 'posh' stone building situated in a staunchly middle class parish where many of the houses sell for over a million pounds - they are on the hill overlooking Portsmouth harbour and the Solent. In fact I used to play the (pipe) organ there until a few years ago. Yet one is lucky to get more than 50 souls at a 'family' service, and more than 5 at Evensong. On the basis of this alone one might conclude that the church is indeed dying.
Yet on the other hand, there is a joint Methodist and Anglican church (a 'local ecumenical project') using a modern building. It is almost impossible to get into the large car park unless you get there very early before a service. This church serves a far less privileged community, in fact it lies not far from one of the largest socially-deprived housing estates in Europe. This church certainly gives no hint at all that it is dying! However, they do not have an organ (actually, not true, they have a little 'spinet' type electronic which is, I was told, occasionally used). The interesting aspect here is that, to use David's example, children are definitely being introduced to God, yet not the organ. What conclusion can we draw here?
So as I said, the association between the church and the organ is not a simple one in my view.
Best wishes and a Happy Easter Day.
Colin Pykett
Hi
A lot of the problem in churches is that the organ is seen as "elitist" and old-fashioned, and having no place in contemporary worship (a view not helped by the intransigence of many organists who dismiss contemporary styles - and sometimes anything newer than "hymns Ancient and not quite so Ancient" as rubbish).
Contrary to popular opinion, the organ can be used effectively alongside, and as part of, a "worship band", as a few of us demonstrate regularly.
It doesn't help when a denominational leader says that we should get rid of organs! (The current General Secretary of the Baptist Union of Gt Britain) - and out of 100 ministers who were there, only two of us reacted negatively. This sort of misguided attitude just makes the whole job so much harder, and deprives the church of a resource which, more often than not, was bought by the sacrificial giving of preceding generations.
Every Blessing
Tony
I can't wholly empathise with organists who take the attitude described by Tony, though I've met enough of them in my time. I too have little problem playing along with worship bands, and have also deserted the console completely on occasions. At the said traditional church mentioned in an earlier post where I once was organist, they had quite a nice piano. Not infrequently I used it for more intimate services, such as when just a few turned up for Evensong. On such occasions they all sat in the choir stalls, and the lay preacher who was taking the service once said "what, an organist agreeing to play the piano - we must have him stuffed". Although, obviously, jocular, the implied undertone revealed a view no doubt widely held about organists by the clergy.
On another occasion I had a wedding couple who were having difficulty deciding which music to have before the bride arrived. So I suggested a Mozart Sonata on the piano. It went down a treat on the day and several people came up afterwards to say what a refreshing change it was, even though the organ itself was needed to support the singing of a large congregation during the rest of the service.
We organists sometimes need to be a little more flexible I feel. In return we might find the barriers to our art might be lifted?
Colin Pykett
Hi
I have read with interest Tony and Colins replies to this topic.
I agree with both of them, organists should be far more flexible and be prepared to use modern music in conjunction with the more "Ancient!" hymns. This morning at my Easter morning service we used Songs of Fellowship as well as Hymns Old and New. The mix works and the age group withing the church is very varied. I did use the piano for one song, the other adapted to the organ.
We dispensed with Evensong many years ago as it was not supported and have an informal Mass once a month.
Organists must be flexible.
Happy Easter
Barrie
And wouldn't you know it... Google drops a related news article into my inbox just as this thread gets going...
http://www.globegazette.com/news/local/article_0a73c7b4-6e29-11e0-91eb-001cc4c002e0.html (http://www.globegazette.com/news/local/article_0a73c7b4-6e29-11e0-91eb-001cc4c002e0.html)
QuoteMASON CITY -- The pipe organ was called "the king of instruments" by 18th century composer Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
"That's because every instrument you could ever think of is represented by a pipe rank of the organ," said organist Marlene Schroeder of Northwood.
"And one person can make it happen."
It is also the only instrument ever created to lead worship, Schroeder said.
But in a world where churches are turning more and more to contemporary music and instruments such as the piano, electronic keyboard and guitar, the question arises as to whether the king may be on the way out.
"I don't think people today think of organ music as 'hip,' " said Ryan Hulshizer of Northwood. "Churches today are trying to appeal to a younger crowd. Praise bands seem to be pretty prevalent."
Hulshizer, who at 28 is one of the younger members of the North Iowa Chapter of the American Guild of Organists (AGO), started playing the organ at church when he was 9.
"I thought it was an interesting gadget," he said. "And I admired the church organist. I thought it would be neat to lead the congregation in worship."
Piano and organ require years of training to master. That is probably one reason a lot of young people don't take it up, Hulshizer said.
"Young people are not really going to church as much any more," Hulshizer said. "They're not hearing the organ as much."
and then ends with...
QuoteAt a recent concert for the Brown Bag Bach Lenten Organ Meditation series, Schroeder performed a diverse program of organ music on a Rodgers organ at the First Presbyterian Church in Mason City.
Beginning with "Aria," a modern composition by Paul Manz, she filled the church with the sounds of rich, majestic music that could be alternately joyful, glorious and foreboding.
"There's still wonderful stuff being written for the organ," observed Crail. "Organ music for worship or concerts is not dead by any means."
Eric
KB7DQH
I've just watched the royal wedding ceremony on TV and was interested to see that the organ was scarcely used other than to accompany the three hymns. Virtually all other accompaniments were provided by the London Chamber Orchestra. Impeccably expert in its way, I nevertheless wonder how well it was able to support the singing in that vast building. I must admit to some disappointment that Parry's transcendentally beautiful "I was glad" was accompanied, not by the organ, but by the trumpeters and the orchestra as the bride walked up the aisle. The organ may well have been in there somewhere, but it very much took a back seat, at least judging by the BBC's sound feed.
For the purposes of this thread, this seems to pose a problem. I had always assumed that the organ still retained its place without question at the pinnacle of church music, i.e. in the cathedrals and especially for great state occasions. But for this event it was relegated to little more than a hymn machine. So we rather seem to be on a losing wicket if we strive to drum up interest for it in churches at local level.
Therefore, perhaps those who argue that its only future lies in a yet-to-be-fully-defined secular role might well be right.
Colin Pykett
I totally agree with Colin that the organ needs a secular future. Churches have proved that they can throw away their heritage at the drop of a clerical whim - architecturally, liturgically and pastorally, not to mention music and organs.
I do not agree with that organ was reduced to a hymn machine at the Royal Wedding. It was heard to great effect in a number of other pieces, kept in balance but distinctly present, in accordance with the composers' scores.
One of the greatest supporters of organs was a splendid chap named Oliver Cromwell. He loved music but was determined to keep the clergy away from dominating the church, so his mates banned organs in churches. Oliver had church organs installed in secular places for enjoyment. That is a very good idea.
If we could do that nowadays we would bridge the (imaginery) gap between the 'light' music world and church. A return to the old fashioned 'town hall' recital style would bring a renewed interest in the organ. I am sorry to say that there are a number of clergy who are the opinion that organs should not be used in worship. (See Tony's comments.)
The organ still retains its foremost position as an accompanimental instrument for large churches and cathedrals. There has always been an orchestra for the 'great' occasions in Westminster Abbey. It is at a local level that harm has been done to divine worship by clergy following outdated 'fashion', rather than embracing the contemporary music that would inspire the younger people. (i.e. forget 'Songs of Fellowship' and have heavy metal, riff, rave, bob, pop, etc. I am far more comfortable with the honesty of real contemporary music than the dishonesty of 'Singers and Seekers in ecclesiastical garb' that adorns many services nowadays. That false style is the real enemy of the organ.
Barry Williams
"This Just In..."
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/news/why-musicians-cant-resist-the-9997pipe-king-of-instruments-2278063.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/news/why-musicians-cant-resist-the-9997pipe-king-of-instruments-2278063.html)
QuoteWeighing 150 tons, soaring 70ft into the air and featuring 9,997 pipes, the Royal Albert Hall's 19th-century pipe organ is far from contemporary music's cutting edge. However that hasn't stopped a spate of pop and rock musicians from blasting the bombastic instrument into the modern age.
In the Albert Hall's mammoth pipe organ's history, contemporary artists including Muse, Madness and Deep Purple have all played or composed for it. Sir Elton John, who learnt to play one as a student, expressed his support for the London instrument's much-needed 2002 refurbishment. Now British-Indian musician and composer Nitin Sawhney is the latest to test the organ's stops and pedals, having written a new work for the instrument to be performed by British Hammond organist James Taylor at the Albert Hall this Friday.
"I wanted us to have the opportunity to do something different with this amazing instrument," said Royal Albert Hall director of events Jasper Hope, who commissioned the work. "I was looking around at what had been done before. There are so many potential uses."
Sawhney will use the gig to perform material from his forthcoming album, Last Days of Meaning, released later this month, as well as the new 15-minute piece.
"There is so much you can do with this thing, the sheer scale of sound is incredible," Sawhney told the the BBC Radio 4 programme Front Row.
(Mentioned elsewhere on this forum ;)
QuoteHope commissioned Sawhney after seeing Muse lead singer Matt Bellamy play his hit track "Megalomania" on the instrument in 2008 at a benefit concert for the Teenage Cancer Trust. Bellamy introduced his performance by saying: "Since we're at the Royal Albert Hall, it would be rude not to play this beast"
QuoteOthers to play the instrument include Madness keyboard player Mike Barson during their number "Swan Lake" at a 2008 concert. In 1969, Deep Purple used the instrument in their Concerto for Group and Orchestra, performed at the Albert Hall with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. The piece featured music composed by the group's co-founder Jon Lord with lyrics by the band's vocalist Ian Gillan.
Those performing on the Albert Hall's organ reflect a recent trend. Canadian band Arcade Fire used a church pipe organ on the songs "Intervention" and "My Body is a Cage" on their successful second album 2007's Neon Bible. Meanwhile, Roger Hodgson, former front man of Supertramp, used a pipe organ for several songs in his 2000 solo album Open the Door. Radiohead's Thom Yorke is a known fan of the church organ, having played one in "Motion Picture Soundtrack", a track on his band's 2000 album Kid A.
Eric
KB7DQH