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Messages - revtonynewnham

#981
Hi

I'm far from convinced by the "many roads lead to God" theory.  It's clearly not what the Bible teaches.  Also, the Bible says "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" - so there's no way that any human being can, by their own efforts, be "good enough" for heaven.  If you don't believe me, just take a look at the first commandment - "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all Thy heart....".  Who can honestly say that they have consistently done that and all that it implies through their entire life from the age of responsibility (whatever that may be)?

That said, God gives us all free will, so I have no argument with adherents to other faiths, nor atheists - the church is here to "make disciples" - to try and introduce them to Jesus.  It's interesting that these days there have been several accounts of Jesus appearing to practicing Muslims in dreams, leading to their conversion - and for a Muslim, converting to another religion is a big step.

The real problem with religious fundamentalism is when people stop listening and debating with others, and then often go beyond what their faith teaches.  The Christian church isn't immune from this.  One of the challenges to the 21st century church is to strip away the traditions and reveal what the Bible really says.  (I don't by this mean that every church must ditch their traditional forms of worship - that's another matter entirely).  One example is marriage - our views are coloured by UK law - but how does the Bible define Christian marriage?

Every Blessing

Tony
#982
Hi

Whilst it is pretty clear from the Bible - and not just from the text David mentions "No one comes to the Father except by me" - which is pretty clear - but the whole tenor of the Bible is that God makes the rules, and if we want His free gift of eternal life, we have to accept His terms (i.e. faith in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ).  Quite frankly, the divisions of the church are a problem - although we in the West sometimes don't realise that Islam is just as divided into factions, "denominations" and sects!  Fundamentally, though, the church is one - we may have different emphases and interpretations, but the bottom line is than anyone who can truly say "Jesus is Lord" (the earliest Christian Creed) - and mean it (think of the implications of saying that someone is "Lord" - i.e. that you are willing to submit to their control) is a Christian.  Personally, I'm a fundamentalist, in that I believe what the Bible says - but it's pretty clear that some parts of the Scripture are not literal descriptions - some of Jesus' parables for example are  obviously fiction - teaching devices (and none the worse for that).  I'm quite happy to "agree to differ" on many church doctrines.  Some of my former colleagues would be horrified to know that I have preached in a Catholic church.  These divisions are exactly what Satan wants - if he can get the church arguing about internal matters, then the prime work of "making disciples" tends to be ignored. 

However, non-Christian religions are a different matter.  Yes, Judaism, Christianity and Islam spring from the same root - at least to some degree - and for the priest that David mentions to claim that "Allah" in Islam is not the same person as the Christian God is sheer ignorance!  "Allah" is the Arabic word for "God" - no more and no less.  And the same word appears in other Eastern languages such as urdu.  It's the term that my friends who are Asian Christians use in worshiping God in church!  Granted, the Muslim's view of God is not the same as the Christians.  Indeed, Christianity is unique in allowing believers instant, direct access to God Himself in prayer.  For the Christian, God is not some remote, judgmental figure, but a Father - Abba (Daddy) even.

I have severe reservations about "multi-faith worship".  At best it's bound to degenerate into a politically correct "lowest common denominator" mish-mash.  The closest I get to participating in a multi-faith event is the annual Holocaust Memorial event here in Bradford, where I've represented the free churches for a few years.  This is not a specifically religious event - but a memorial.  It is deliberately held on neutral ground - and althoug representatives of many faiths are involved, the whole event is a reminder of man's inhumanity to man, and the need to ensure that such things don't happen again than any specifically religious reasons.

I'm beginning to ramble, so I'd better leave things there for now and go and do some proper work!

Every Blessing

Tony
#983
Hi

I'd intended to comment on this earlier - but thought I'd better wait - I've had problems with Christians not following Christ's teachings - and I'm pretty sure that some of my health problems were made worse by the stress caused by such a person.  The fact is that Christians aren't perfect - and are subject to the same pressures as everyone else - and things sadly do go wrong.  So much of life today is about meeting targets (education being a prime example - and the results are only too clearly seen in the stress-related problems that many teachers suffer.  I'm afraid I can't give any easy answers - maybe society as a whole needs to change - perhaps it's time for a revival of the Christian faith - but that one is in God's hands.

Every Blessing

Tony
#984
Quote from: David Pinnegar on July 05, 2010, 12:45:13 PM
Dear Tony

What is interesting is that the organ has clearly got atheists into church! Perhaps they simply don't want to acknowledge the role that God plays in their lives.

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

I've no problem with atheists being in church - and I'm convinced that God works in many more ways than we can imagine.  There's even one account of a preacher coming to real faith in one of his own sermons!  However, I still have reservations about non-believers taking positions of leadership/ministry in church.

Look forward to hearing about the EOCS meeting on Saturday.

See you next week.

every Blessing

Tony
#985
Hi

God is not nature - the natural world is part of His creation - but creation can and does reveal God to those who have eyes to see.

As to atheist organists, why on earth are they playing in church in the first place?  Apart from the fact that to claim to be an atheist is, in effect, to claim that you know everything - -because that's the only way that anyone can say definitively that there is no God - it's raises moral questions to support a religious system that you claim to be a lie.  That just doesn't make sense.

Also, how can an atheist fully understand and communicate the Christian message through music if they regard it as nonsense, or at best a moral code?  Leading worship is an important ministry - not one to be delegated to someone with no belief in what they're doing.

Every Blessing

Tony
#986
Hi

I'm not sure about the use of pipe synthetic tones on Compton cinema organs - the 5 basic ranks were all extended - no "luxuries" like separate, true-tuned mutations or anything like that which John Compton knew very well were needed for synthetic tones - but the Melotone used synthetics built up from harmonics - and very effective they are on the examples that I've played.

I guess that Compton were the first builders of hybrid organs, back in the 1930's - and even produced at least one true hybrid with a complete electronic division.  Christie toyed with their "radiotone" - I'm not sure exactly what this was, or if any examples remain - they also used electronic basses at The Dome, Brighton, for a couple of 32ft stops.  I'm only aware of one other UK organ builder even attempting hybrid organs commercially prior to the digital era - IIRC that was in the 1950's.

Incidentally, Compton's melotone/electrone patents are earlier than Hammond's - often cited as the first commercial electronic organs.

Every Blessing

Tony
#987
Hi

The Theatre Organ World list (dating from the 1970's) shows the Lyric Wellingborough Compton as having 5 ranks plus Melotone, and an illuminated console.

Please do send the details to NPOR (along with the previous locations of the organ).  We're aware that there are not many Theatre organs listed on NPOR as yet.  At some point, I want to have a blitz on them - but it can be a very time consuming business trying to trace address details for closed cinemas, and trying to find where organs have been (and what ranks, etc have been changed) - the last couple that I dealt with took me about 4 hours each - and still don't have complete info on movements.

At present, NPOR has a backlog of around 6-7 months of routine updates, and pretty well all extra projects are on hold until we get this down to manageable proportions.

Every Blessing

Tony
#988
Hi

Hammond percussion was indeed 2nd or 3rd harmonic (switchable IIRC)

Their longevity I suspect is down to the basically mechanical generators - and the quality of engineering that went into them.  The only electronics are the pre & power amps and related circuits.

Every Blessing

Tony
#989
Hi

I would second that - very useful and well worth mastering the technique.  The late Douglas Reeve used it when I heard him play many years ago - and more recently, Ken Double's use of double touch on the Saltaire Wurlitzer was nothing short of astounding.  In some numbers he was using dt to produce a rhythmic backing against held chords, with the melody on another manual - absolutely brilliant.

Every Blessing

Tony
#990
Organ building and maintenance / Re: Hybrid Organs
June 26, 2010, 09:34:16 AM
Hi

The system that Carpenter wants uses multiple computers, as built I would guess by Marshall & Ogletree.  I have a demo CD of their Opus 1 - nice, but not as good as the real thing.

And again, the speakers are going to be an issue - he will need to invest significant funds for that alone.

Every Blessing

Tony
#991
Thanks David

We'll talk further when I do visit later next month.

Every Blessing

Tony
#992
Organ building and maintenance / Re: Hybrid Organs
June 25, 2010, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: David Pinnegar on June 24, 2010, 04:11:31 PM

Dear Tony

This is actually one of the important reasons for the existence of this forum, so that one can voice opinions feely without upsetting controlling vested interests.

On a forum devoted to sampling technology, the concept that speakers with differing idiosyncracies are an important part of voicing is a total anathema. Were there to be speakers without idiosyncracies, then there would be only one type and one manufacturer . . . and it seems pretty obvious to me that such characteristics can detract from, or be used to enhance the result. I think that they think that mentioning such things is a criticism of their technology which in which, of course, all factors are entirely controllable without requiring further control or modification at the electroacoustic stage. Some speakers fight with the fundamental requirements of reproducing organs whilst others work with the characteristic nature of organs to enhance the result.

There are, of course, two purposes for using reproducing technology, one for home practice, transporting one's living environment to a specific organ in its acoustic environment, and the other for being an organ transported as an instrument into an environment in which it performs. These two purposes require different treatments in terms of recording and reproduction, and confusion between the two leads to significant misunderstandings, or perhaps even those manufacturers have an awareness of the inherent problem you point out about transporting the sound of a pipe to sound in a different environment, and don't want attention drawn to it. However, solutions are only found if problems are capable of discussion.

Your comment about being able to control the attack phase of each harmonic is interesting and, potentially relevant. It is the attack that considerably assists the decision making process of the brain in deciding that a sound is real. When one hears gutteral syllables of singers through conventional studio monitors and hi-fi quality PA systems recommended by some manufacturers, one appreciates that such systems are not succeeding in reproducing reality.

It's lucky for the survival of the pipe organ that most manufacturers of electronics think that perfection is in the sophistication of their systems rather than any aspect beyond mere electronic control . . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi

I would agree that a mix of technologies is probably the best way to go - using each for what it's best at.  Speakers are the real problem with electronic organs (and indeed, reproduced sound in general).  Human speech is generally regarded as the most difficult sound to reproduce accurately - as listening to many loudspeakers soon demonstrates!  Arguably, electrostatic speakers produce the most accurate, uncoloured sound - I still regret passing up the opportunity to buy a Quad 57 many years ago - but you couldn't use them on a e-organ - there just isn't the power handling capacity, nor the bass response, which illustrates that any loudspeaker design is going to be a balancing of compromises.

Interestingly, Copeman-Hart at least don't claim the their digital organs are better than pipes, nor do Peter & Lucy Comerford - I can't speak for the other builders.  A Rogers rep, several years ago, did try to say that their then current W-5000 (if I've remembered the model number correctly) was better than anything else - a totally laughable statement! 

Long live the pipe organ!

Every Blessing

Tony
#993
Hi

It's a pity that I can't get to Sussex for the 3rd - but I'll be interested to hear about the results of the various trials, especially as I need to sort out some decent speakers (at minimal cost) for my computer simulator organ.

Hope the day goes well.

Every Blessing

Tony
#994
Organ building and maintenance / Re: Hybrid Organs
June 24, 2010, 08:34:19 AM
Hi

You're welcome to copy my comments into the electronic organs thread - or maybe I'll write something there if I ever find a few spare minutes!

I have auditioned Hauptwerk, and I have the free version available on my "organ" computer, but I've not yet got to grips with getting it properly set up.  I'm using the now defunct "My Organ" software (roughly equivalent to HW1) and MidiTzer - with 2 keyboards and a MIDI pedalboard (Description will be in the next EOCS magazine due out shortly).  As with any organ, the quality of the voicing is the ultimate factor - and undoubtedly, synthesis-based systems are far more complicated to voice effectively than the sample-based ones.  I've seen the software for voicing the Bradford organs, and the degree of control - and hence the number of variables - is immense - and among other things, allows adjusting every harmonic against time in the "attack" phase.

I'm not saying that sample-based systems can't produce good results, but I do wonder about taking sounds of pipes recorded in one environment and trying to reproduce them in another.  It's perhaps significant that Copeman-Hart - generally regarded as the Rolls-Royce of digital organs - also use synthesis-based technology.

I suppose I should mention that I know Drs. Peter & Lucy Comerford, the designers of the Bradford system pretty well.

Every Blessing

Tony
#995
Organ building and maintenance / Re: Hybrid Organs
June 23, 2010, 09:54:46 AM
Hi

Hybrid organs are always going to be a compromise - and like everything else, there are good and bad.  The organ in St Peter's Addingham - http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=E01012 - is a fairly recent local example.  It's a rebuild of an 1861 instrument, probably by Wood Wordsworth, with further rebuilds by Laycock & Bannister.  In it's current incarnation, it has Electric action, and the substantial added electronics are the latest incarnation of the Bradford system.  On first hearing, it was very difficult to identify the digital stops - but on more extended listening, I could tell which were real and which were artificial - but for an electronic, it's pretty good.

The issues of keeping the electronics in tune with the pipes is a big problem (except in buildings where a steady temperature can be maintained).  Even installing the temperature sensors linked to tuning of the digital ranks isn't a complete solution - where do you position the sensor?  Main windchest? Incoming air supply? Ambient in the building? Inside the swell box?  All viable - but likely to give slightly different results, so manual tuning needs to be resorted to for anything critical. 

However, the sound of this instrument is good enough to demonstrate the superiority of well-voiced synthesis over sample-based digital organ technology - but that's a different issue.

Another local hybrid organ is Bradford Cathedral, where the pipe Nave division has been replaced with an earlier Bradford system (I'm not sure why - certainly church politics had a hand in the decision).  The Nave department there sounds good - but distinctly electronic to me - but not unpleasantly so.  It's certainly needed with a big congregation.  I played there for a funeral a couple of years ago - and the Nave organ was out of use at that time (a minor cable fault meant that only alternate notes played!).  It needed a lot of the main organ to lead a congregation of 150-200 - especially as they sang unusually well for a funeral.  The final hymn was "thine be the Glory" - I even used the chamade trumpet in that!

Hybrid organs have been around a long time.  Compton built one pre-war - see NPOR http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N01844  - not to mention their abortive experiment at Salford RC Cathedral - see http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N12617 .  A pipe organ built in soundproof chambers and relayed into the cathedral over loudspeakers!  Doomed to failure given the technology of the era - it would be difficult today.

The late Alan Douglas had a house organ with one pipe manual and one electronic.  (In more recent times, a friend of mine has a 3m digital organ, with a 3-rank extension pipe department added - and very nice it is too).  A Northampton firm of organ builders used to offer a hybrid organ with one pipe and one electronic department - the tuning problems with analogue electronics don't bear thinking about!

I think that hybrid organs definitely have a future - especially where space is limited, and the use that the organ is put to demands a larger specification - the danger comes where additional stops are added just to fulfill the organists/church's desire for something bug and impressive.

Enough for now - I've got a service to plan!

every Blessing

Tony
#996
Hi

Compton often adjusted the recipe for their synthetic stops (and also mixtures) on site - so the selection of ranks & pitches may well vary between organs anyway.  I've heard that some restorers have come unstuck on this by assuming that unused relay banks for mixtures should have been connected and were overlooked(!) - and have hence changed the sound of Compton's harmonic mixtures.

Every Blessing

Tony
#997
Inspirational instruments / A Day of Contrasts
June 21, 2010, 09:57:11 AM
Hi

Saturday was the Bradford Organists' association's annual trip (and organ crawl!)  This year, at my suggestion, we went to Chester and North Wales - and saw, heard and played three very different organs - but all interesting and inspiring in their own way.

First stop was St. Mary, Mold, http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N08865

This is one of Rushworth & Dreaper's rare excursions into neo-baroque territory -  not a style of organ that some of our members like!  However, this was an interesting instrument to hear and play (and see - the casework is nice - and the Brustwerk enclosure is sliding/folding doors - operated by the swell pedal!  A surprisingly effective arrangement.  The choruses were clear and bright - and solo tone colours could be found.  As usual on these trips, no-one gets to play for very long - but as President, our "tradition" is that the president gets first crack at the open console sessions. I played the Bacj Chorale prelude "O Mensch, Bewein dein Sunde Grosb" - Solo on the Swell Stopped Flute & Larigot, with Great Flutes 8 & 4 and Pedal 16 for the other parts.  The Brustwerk arrangement made it easy to balance the voices.  This organ is the typical neo-Baroque "screamer" - although undoubtedly brightly voiced.

Next stop (after lunch in a local hotel) was St Peter, Ruthin. http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=R00063.  This is an absolutely unique organ - the details are on NPOR, so I won't waste space here - suffice to say that it's an English Victorian "take" on a French romantic organ.  Does it sound French?  No - although a couple of the reeds do have a French flavour to my ears.  Does it sound typically English?  Again, not really - although all the sounds are there for the Anglican repertoire - and solo organ repertoire - but sometimes not where you expect them.  One quirk is that there is no coupler from the choir to any other manuals - due to the fact that Pyne (the designer) used the "thumbing down" te3chnique heavily, so he specified a closer than normal spacing for the manuals.  For the same reason, there are only general pistons (16 under the choir manual, duplicated by toe levers - with a ridiculous number of memory levels.  I had played this organ a few years ago - I had a morning on it when we were on holiday in the area.  It's not the sort of organ that you can just sit down and play - it takes some time to get used to its idiosyncratic layout - but there are some absolutely beautiful solo voices, as well as good choruses on Great & Swell.  I played the Daquin Noel (the famous one) - but I did chicken out of the variation with all the semiquavers!  Lack of practice!  The Choir Cor Anglais (an unusual stop - one of Wadsworth's specialities) with the Choir Oboe made a fair substitute for the Cromhorne - and everythingelse was there with no problems - I'm told that the echo passages in the finale came of extremely well down in the church.  If you're going to be in this area of Wales, I would recommend any organist contacting the church and arranging a visit - but give yourself plenty of time!

The final call was St Werburgh Catholic Church  in Chester.  http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=E00905.  A rescued Binns - and again a very interesting installation - although it did serve to remind me why I hate detached consoles at the other end of the church to the pipes!  Very much a typical English church organ - and none the worse for that.  My contribution here was a hymn prelude on Diadem by Rosalie Bonighton.  The parish priest here - who called in briefly to say "hello" before rushing off to take a Mass in another church - had previously been at St Cuthbert's, Bradford - the Catholic church just round the corner from where I live.  It's a small world!

Altogether, Saturday was an interesting and inspiring day.

Every Blessing

Tony
#998
Hi

Compton often included synthetic stops - most notably their "harmonics of 32ft" to simulate a 32ft reed - and pretty successfully too.

The making of synthetic tones by the use of, particularly, wide-scle (flute-tone_ mutations is a key ingredient of the Baroque and the classical French repertoire (Tierce en Teille for example).  Just yesterday - on the Bradford Organists' Assoc annual trip, I played a Bach Chorale prelude on a 2m neo-baroque organ (I'll psot more about the trip later today or tomorrow - 3 very different organs)  Anyway, for the solo line in the Bach I used the Swell (really Brustwerk) 8ft (a Flute) and Larigot (I would also have used a Nazard, but the organ doesn't have one).  The sound approaches that of a Clarient, but has its own distinct organ characteristics.  Accomp was Flutes 8,4 on the Great and 16 on pedal.

If you have mutations on your organ, its well worth experimenting with registrations - you never know what new sounds you might find.

every Blessing

Tony
#999
Organs wanted / Re: ranks of pipes
June 18, 2010, 09:49:04 AM
Hi

As David says, talk to any organ builder - they will either have stocks (and often complete organs), or know where they can be found.  Also, take a look at the small ads in Organists' Review - there's a regular advert there offering organ pipes and parts.  The third option is the Redundant Organ Rehousing company - see http://www.rorcl.co.uk/ - alongside their aim to rescue complete organs, they do have some pipework available.

Every Blessing

Tony
#1000
Hi

Not the same firm at all - William Drake is based in Buckfastleigh, and has built and/or restored a good number of organs - all(?) traker, and very different from the organ in Westcliffe Chapel, Shipley (which is unusual - not so much for the organ, but because it's a Christian Brethren church - I've only come across one other that had an organ).

Every Blessing

Tony