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Messages - pcnd5584

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#121
Organ building and maintenance / Re: Mixture Compositions???
April 17, 2012, 04:12:27 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on April 14, 2012, 09:14:31 PM

I don't agree that the design of AH's trombas was fundamentally flawed.  If they were very loud indeed, they were probably intended primarily as solo stops.  Everyone did this at the time - the Tromba at St. Magnus Cathedral is a Willis tuba in all but name.  The 1907 Trombas at Belfast Cathedral acted as remarkably good chorus reeds to the 1975 Positive.  Similarly, I wouldn't be so quick to scrap a Harmonics as people once were.  They weren't/aren't nearly so anti-social as is sometimes claimed.  Harry Bramma  says the example at Worcester was a useful alternative to the quint mixture.  I think I would prefer one to a lot of Hill tierce mixtures I have met.....

Modification/replacement sometimes works, but not always.  The quint mixture which replaced the Harmonics at Leicester Cathedral worked very well, IMHO, but the similar exercise at Belfast (using some of the old pipes) most certainly didn't.

Maybe - but there is a world of difference between some Arthur Harrison Trombe and most Willis Tuba stops - even if they are by HW III, and not FHW. Whilst I realise that AH's Tromba stops were not all the same, nevertheless there are a good number still around which speak on pressures between 250mm and 300mm. King's College, Cambridge are voiced on approximately 400mm - which is just too much for G.O. reeds, to my mind - even if they are enclosed in the Solo expression box.

In any case, this is partly my point - if the G.O. reeds are too loud (or too opaque) to use as chorus stops, then they are  simply too loud. On a three-clavier instrument (with or without a solo reed on the Choir or Positive), surely the most important function is as part of the full G.O. - any solo capability should be a secondary consideration.

Out of interest, were the G.O. reeds at Belfast retained exactly as before in 1975, or were they revoiced, perhaps on a lower pressure and/or with thinner tongues?

Saint Peter's, Bournemouth is a case in point. The G.O. reeds there still speak on a pressure of 250mm. Having played this organ many times (I was formerly Sub Organist for a while), I never did like them. Although they are now labelled as Posaune and Octave Posaune, they are still quite fat - and lack any attack at all, their speech being a little sluggish. I greatly prefer my 'own' reeds here - even if they do speak on a pressure of approximately 80mm - to my ears, they are infinitely more musical than those at Saint Peter's Church.

Harmonics - I am not convinced! I had understood that most piano manufacturers 'voiced' pianos so that the seventh harmonic was kept very 'quiet'. I must confess that I simply have no use for the anti-social jangle of a flat twenty-first in a compound stop. As a separate mutation, with a totally different construction and voicing, in combination with other flute ranks, it can produce some piquant effects - but even then, a stop at this pitch (or even 2 2/7ft.) has a somewhat limited appeal.
#122
Organ building and maintenance / Re: Mixture Compositions???
April 14, 2012, 02:45:41 AM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 13, 2012, 07:46:31 PM
... So we had quite brillant stops which did not blend at all with the rest, nor corroborated anything, as a color one could actually add to whatever registration (It is noteworthy that E-M Skinner understood them exactly that way as well).
It is indeed a post-romantic concept rather than a baroque one.
The baroque masters built mainly corroborative stops that were meant for loud registrations, not to be heard by themselves.

I believe it is time to change our conceptions in that matter, and that we accept the fact there are countless different mixture designs which existed and deserve preservation. This answers the question about Atlantic City...

Best wishes,
Pierre

I am not so sure that Skinner understood anything at all about mixtures, Pierre - particularly not after reading the whole of Charles Callahan's book The American Classic Organ. It is quite clear from the letters (particularly those between Skinner and Henry Willis III) that he [Skinner] had little or no understanding of any of the functions of compound stops - of any type. Willis III (who was not exactly a proponent of neo-Baroque instruments) attempted to demonstrate to Skinner how invaluable mixtures were - and also of the importance of proper choruses. However, initially, Shinner was only interested in Willis' chorus reeds. It was only on a subesquent visit, some years later, that he became aware of the musical value of chorus mixtures. In particular, he was utterly taken with the Grand Chorus V (15-19-22-26-29) on the G.O. at  Westminster Cathedral.

I would agree that there are indeed countless mixture schemes - many of which deserve preservation. However, I remain unconvinced that there is any musical value whatsoever in a Harrison 'Harmonics' (17-19-flat 21-22). In this regard, I would suggest that, if one agrees that the design of Arthur Harrison's trombe was fundamentally flawed, then the 'Harmonics' was also redundant. Whilst I realise that this stop was as an attempt to marry Harrison's opaque, harmonically dead G.O. reeds to the rest of the chorus, in reality these stops were often so powerful that they simply swamped practically everything else, except for a Tuba and a Pedal Ophicleide (if present).
#123
YouTube and other MP3 recordings of organs and organ music or other music of relevance / Re: Loud Organs His Glory
April 07, 2012, 02:35:06 PM
Quote from: Holditch on April 08, 2011, 12:58:49 AM
A good radio programme, well worth a listen

Hopefully more will understand the wonders of the instrument

It is indeed interesting - and I would agree that it would be good to think that it introduced the organ to a wider audience.

However, I am not sure why they featured the organs of Winchester Cathedral and the Royal Albert Hall. Having played Winchester for both service and recital work (on a number of occasions), and having heard it many times under the hands of the sub organist at the time, I would say that it is not really recognisable as the work of FHW. It certainly lacks the vivid tone colours of, for example, the organ of Salisbury Cathedral. To me, Winchester appears to be devoid of any real personality, or tonal identity. I do not intend for this to sound harsh, just simply to query the choice of the first two instruments.

In the case of the RAH organ, I should have thought that the difference was glaringly obvious - this has not been a 'Willis' organ since the 1920s, when Arthur Harrison commenced his rebuilding and re-designing of the entire instrument - which entailed re-voicing, re-scaling throughout, together with much new work and with a major revision of the wind pressures. One only has to read the correspondence section of periodicals such as The Organ, to realise what a radical transformation it was. Whilst it was Willis' largest concert hall organ, I should still have thought that the instrument in Saint George's Hall, Liverpool (even in its present state) would have been closer in style to the work of FHW.

I wonder why the organs of Hereford or Salisbury cathedrals, Saint Mary's, Edinburgh* or those at the town halls of Oxford or Reading  were not chosen? Or, indeed, that the instrument in Truro Cathedral was not featured more prominently.



* Although this has been rebuilt and restored by H&H, arguably the FHW sound is more recognisable than it is at Winchester Cathedral.
#124
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
March 14, 2012, 11:08:10 PM
Quote from: MusingMuso on March 13, 2012, 07:28:46 PM
Tony is right, but my undertsanding and use of the term is slightly different, if substantially the same. (This doesn't mean that I may be using the term incorrectly).

If we had a Schulze organ handy, it would be easy to demonstrate, but basically, the Great Organ is totally dominant and usually very loud. (Also a feature of Arthur Harrison organs). The Swell organ is next in loudness, but quite underpowered as compared with, (for example), a Fr.Willis organ. The Choir Organ would often be to the rear of the instrument and voiced quietly, and at Armley, the fourth Echo manual was originally buried beaneth and behind the Great and Swell, with the effect that it was extremely delicate if not almost unaudible.

This was typical of the earlier German romantic organs built by Schulze and others, and what it means in practical terms is what Tony states: that of vivid tonal dynamic contrasts, but with little build-up assisted by an assertive Swell organ in a good box.

In fact, playing Reger is almost an impossibility on a Schulze organ, which takes many by surprise.

In essence, the Schulze amd Brindley style was soon out of date, as music became ever more expressive.

So to recap, it is my use of the term which translates as Great ff, Swell mf and Choir pp, with very little swell expression being possible in such a way that it permits a gradual build-up of power.

I hope that makes sense, but if anyone knows a diferent term other than "terraced dynamics," I would be happily corrected.

MM

This is also my inderstanding of the term, as it relates to the pipe organ. Perhaps an even clearer example would be the average four-clavier (or even three-clavier) Cavaillé-Coll instrument.
#125
Organs on eBay or for urgent sale / Re: Organ in Kingston in church about to be demolished on ebay
March 14, 2012, 10:56:54 PM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on March 14, 2012, 10:29:14 AM
Hi

Using NPOR it took me all of 1 minute to track this one down - http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N13781  a c.1870 Lewis.  The style of the case front makes me wonder if the origin was Bishop - but I could well be wrong.

Every Blessing

Tony

Indeed - although it took me approximately fourteen seconds.

For the record, I have e-mailed the sellers (via my own e-Bay account) and informed them of the pointlessness of their subterfuge - simply to warn them that they may well, after all, have to deal with some time-wasters....
#126
Organ building and maintenance / Re: Changing the heaviness of a tracker action?
March 12, 2012, 06:51:15 PM
Quote from: matt h on February 20, 2012, 09:19:19 PM
Hi

I would say it depends on the size of the organ; if as you say it is a house organ, and assuming it only has a few ranks then the pallets shouldn't be all that big.  In which case it should be possible to make some improvements to the action. 

Regards,
Matt

To an extent, yes - and also the design and layout of the action.

However, the Hill organ of Saint Martin's Church, Salisbury (1868) is a reasonably sized two-clavier instrument of twenty-four stops, including a Pedal Trombone and a G.O. Trumpet. (For the sake of accuracy, three Pedal stops, including the wooden Trombone, were added by Nicholsons, in 2002.)

However, when I first played this instrument, I hated it - despite having some quite pleasant stops and a reasonable G.O. chorus - due to that fact that the tracker action was one of the heaviest I have ever played.*  A few months later, after a colleague (who has worked with various organ builders) had regulated and adjusted the action, I played it again. Well - what a difference! It was as if it were a completely different instrument. He had performed a miraculous transformation.

Therefore, I would say that it is certainly worth investigating. If you wish for details of the person who regulated the organ in Salisbury, I am happy to supply them by PM.



* The prize for this category goes to the instrument in Holsworthy Parisl Church, North Devon - of S.S. Wesley and '...bells' fame.

#127
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
March 12, 2012, 06:30:40 PM
Quote from: MusingMuso on March 11, 2012, 09:59:22 PM

I suspect that David has hit the nail on the head concerning the eventual fall from grace of Brindley & Foster organs, which apart from a certain over-complexity and dogged reliance on pneumatic actions, really didn't move with the times tonally, in spite of slightly larger flutes and a few passing nods in the direction of the orchestral tendency after the turn of the 19th century. Essentially, they continued to build organs with terraced dynamics; very much in the Schulze style, which makes much of the repertoire, (including late German romantic music), almost impossible to play convincingly.

As for a revival in extension organs, I quite agree, because Compton showed what could be done, and 5 or 6 ranks of real pipes is far more musically natural in sound to anything electronic: not that I don't admire the progress made with modern digital organs and systems such as "Hauptwerk."

MM

Although in the case of Brindley, they also displayed a somewhat persistent attitude with their patent combination action the 'Brindgradus' system - which apparently did not win many adherents, for a variety of reasons.

With regard to Compton - yes, they could produce good instruments. However, the quality of their voicing was not always in the top rank. For example, some quiet orchestral reeds, which were neither particularly beauitful - nor regulated consistently.
#128
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
March 11, 2012, 08:20:10 AM
Quote from: David Drinkell on March 10, 2012, 11:49:55 PM
Fair comment, although I don't think the major effects are too much for the building - but they need using with discretion and sound very big indeed at the console. (I am not suggesting that you don't know that!  We may always differ and I respect your opinion).

And I yours, David.

Quote from: David Drinkell on March 10, 2012, 11:49:55 PM
Garth used to complain that the Swell Viole Sourdine (added in 1947) had disappeared somwhere along the way and he missed it!

Indeed it did - in 1974, along with the Octave Wood. I had assumed that Garth Benson had requested this himself. It would be a little surprising if Harrisons had just packed the pipes in the crates (in which the then new G.O. Mixture V had arrived) and just gone back to Durham....


Quote from: David Drinkell on March 10, 2012, 11:49:55 PM
The Great Quint Mixture was new in the seventies and was the sort of thing one might expect from that period.  It was recast later and now fits in much better.  Some very large Harrisons, as you will know, had quint mixtures on the Great (inspired by Armley).  It's maybe surprising that Redcliffe didn't, although it has other registers that don't appear on other jobs.  The Harmonics is still there, so you can have the original chorus if you want it.  The Swell mixture was recast at the same time as the Great quint mixture went in, but was never quite so startling.  I think it has been revamped back to something more like the original and sounds pretty authentic to me.

I agree about that piston coupler change - they could have had a switch so that one could have either/or.

I agree with you regarding the second G.O. Mixture. I had wondered whether it was simply the case that Ralph T. Morgan did not particularly like compound stops.

Are you able to confirm the present composition of this stop at C1, please? The NPOR gives two possibilites. I had hoped that it was the 'standard' 15-19-22-26-29, but there is a possibility that it commences 12-15-19-22-26 - which would be too 'quinty' for my tastes - and still rather low-pitched.
#129
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
March 10, 2012, 09:06:15 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on March 10, 2012, 08:29:09 PM

... Redcliffe, however, in a number of ways stands out from the rest, even by Arthur Harrison standards.  Part of its character lies in the disposition, wherein the Choir and Solo (apart from the Tuba) make a small but complete two-manual organ adjacent to the choir-stalls.  Then there is the stupendous effect of the Swell with its two sets of independently controlled shutters, it's stone chamber and integral 32' pedal reed.  There's really nothing like it, although it may not be to everyone's taste.  AH considered Redcliffe and King's to be his finest creations, and I think that's true, although King's is vastly different from Redcliffe.

I would agree that there is a wealth of quiet accompanimental registers - although, as you state, it is necessary to use the organ in a rather different way, due to its unusual layout.

On a small matter: I note that the Pedal to Swell Pistons (which I always find extremely useful when accompanying) has been replaced by a Pedal to General Foot Pistons* (which is only really useful when playing recitals or more complex voluntaries).



* Which is, in any case, a slightly odd choice; although the accessories appear to be a little unusual - even allowing for the slightly different divisional functions this instrument possesses.
#130
Pipe organ gravestones and plaques / Re: St. Lawrence Jewry, London
March 10, 2012, 12:25:35 AM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on March 09, 2012, 10:36:47 AM
@AOC

It seems to me that you need to think through the prime role of organs such as Christ Church, Oxford, which is to accompany the choir.  Also, organs in academia have an educational function, which is one reason why, in recent years, organs of a variety of historic (and modern) styles have been introduced - and practicality has sometimes meant that older organs have been removed - but then, Willis & Harrison et al were just as much following (and setting) the fashions of their day as the current organ builders - and going back inbto history, the same applies to previous generations.

I have yet to find a pipe organ that has no redeeming features - and I've played a fair few that had major tonal and mechanical problems!  The art of the organist isn't to bemoan what an organ can't do, and what changes they'd like to make, but rather to take what is there and use it to the fullest extent.

An example is small organs - but it's often surprising what can be done with a limited range of stops, given some lateral thinking in terms of registration.

Every Blessing

Tony

There is much good sense here.

I have only played two organs which I consdered to possess no redeeming features whatsoever. One was the orgue-de-choeur at Chartres Cathedral and the other was in a church in Dorchester.

However, with the qualification of these two instruments, I would agree that it is the organist's job to use the instrument as it stands to the best of his ability.
#131
Pipe organ gravestones and plaques / Re: St. Lawrence Jewry, London
March 09, 2012, 11:59:38 PM
Quote from: rh1306 on March 07, 2012, 01:03:51 PM
Being someone who has regularly attended recitals at St. Lawrence for a period of over 40 years, I think that I am probably more qualified than most to make a reasoned comparison and judgement between the old and new organs.

I have always been under the impression that the organ from St. Paul's, Camden Square was actually a Willis, and that only the pipework was used in the construction of the 1957 organ for St. Lawrence Jewry.  In fact I was told this by no lesser a person than Ivor Davies himself, who apparently had somehow acquired the instrument and subsequently sold it on to Noel Mander.

By the end of the 20th century, the Mander organ was indeed showing signs of age, but could have easily been rebuilt for a fraction of the cost of the new Klais which, to my ears is a loud, raucous and most unmusical of intruments - a unappealing sound indeed. ...

I have often wondered about the increasing number of instruments which have been deemed to be 'unworthy of restoration'. Worcester Cathedral is perhaps the most obvious example.

I must also confess to a preference for the former organ of Bath Abbey - not least because the new instrument has lost an enitre department (and has also gained chorus reeds of rather similar tonality).

On paper, the old organ of Saint Lawrence, Jewry had much to commend it. No doubt, even in 1957, good quality materials were both scarce and at a premium. However, to judge from the written stop-list and contemporary instruments by this firm, I think that all I would wish to change would be an augmentation in the number of ranks of the G.O. compound stop, perhaps a few slightly more colourful stop names (whilst avoiding charges of tonal dishonesty), and the removal of the Tuba - or at least having it confined to the lowest clavier and being non-coupling.
#132
Pipe organ gravestones and plaques / Re: St. Lawrence Jewry, London
March 09, 2012, 11:42:04 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 09, 2012, 07:44:59 AM
There's a difference between power and loudness. Without the big reeds, CC Oxford REALLY lacks power. If you sit well up the nave when the cathedral is full, the organ REALLY struggles to carry the congregation in hymnody, despite what you say - let alone accompany the choir! I'm sorry, but an organ like that needs an acoustic ambience to work - Gloucester's organ would be equally miserable in the Oxford building. In an acoustic that dry, a warmer, more rounded sound is required, with MUCH more 16' and 8' tone. I'm not talking about Diapason Phonon type things, or even big leathered diapasons, just a reasonable body of sound, which the Rieger lacks. I wasn't going to mention Walkers of the early 1900s, but now you mention it, the 1920s 4/45 Walker which David helped save from destruction recently would be excellent in CCO. I wasn't going to campaign for Willis or Walker or HN&B reeds either, but I think that the free-tone reeds of a mid-C19 Hill would be good in that building, particularly with the very Classical choruses of the Rieger. The spitty, fiery, thin things it has now in no way balance the fluework, and are also extremely unpleasant in that dry acoustic. I'm sorry that I seem here to have slaughtered another sacred cow, but I honestly cannot think of another organ I hate so much.

Not at all. However, I have played for a fairly full congregation - and did not experience the difficulty to which you alluded. Nor did I find it necessary to use vast quanities of this instrument, in order to keep the singers together.

Whilst I do like the Christ Church Rieger, I would have liked to have heard the old FHW/H&H. (Incidentally, exactly where would Harrisons have put the prepared-for 32ft. reed, if the cathedral authorities had instructed them to complete the organ tonally?)

I would also like to hear a mid-19th century Hill organ in this building. Or a late 19th century Walker.


Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 09, 2012, 07:44:59 AM
Regarding the case - I've seen a number of photographs of the Willis and I agree, it was on the dumpy side. However, Rieger went too far in the opposite direction. Personally, I think the Smith case would have been best removed to the chancel, without the later and rather oversized chair case (these four-tower Smith cases almost never had chair case - I think Durham is the only example) and used to house a choir organ - or, alternatively, removed to another college - with an entirely new case (PERHAPS re-using the chair case) being used for the west end organ (which, ideally, would have re-used much of the Willis pipework).

At least when New College destroyed their 4m Willis, they replaced it with something visually and tonally quite wonderful, though in both respects entirely inappropriate to its surroundings...

Which just serves to illustrate the variety (even disparity) in the tastes of organ-lovers. Now New College is one organ which I do not like. And, for once, I have not played it - only heard it. However, I have some acquaintance with other work by GD&R/GD&B and I must admit to having reservations about the suitability of some aspects of the design and of the style of their voicing. Whilst New College does have a more generous acoustic ambience than that of Christ Church, I am slightly surprised that you like the sound of the New College organ - which I would describe as 'aggressive'.

With regard to its visual appearance, I find it, quite simply, distressing. In the medieval surroundings of this beautiful chapel, I would agree that it is certainly 'inappropriate to its surroundings...' .
#133
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
March 09, 2012, 10:52:00 PM
Quote from: matt h on March 09, 2012, 09:16:01 PM
@pcnd5584

Glad to know I'm not the only one with a soft spot for the organ at Bristol Cathedral.  So often it is usurped by it's neighbour at St. Mary Redcliffe, but I found it to have a wealth of tone colour and it sits in an enviable acoustic. 

Also the authorities in the Cathedral were most accommodating in allowing me, as a then 15 year old, to basically have free rein for an hour or two.

Regards,
Matt.

Welcome, Matt.

I was greatly pleased to read your post. I regard the Bristol Cathedral organ as one of our national musical treasures. In addition to a thrilling tutti (which seems just right for this superb building), it has a wealth of colour and of etherial beauty.

I can imagine how much you enjoyed playing it.
#134
Organ registration / Re: Re: Minimum specification of small organ
March 09, 2012, 10:48:57 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 09, 2012, 07:09:10 PM
I was not being snide or venomous, just making the point that various organists have used enough imagination to get something out of the Kilkhampton Willis. If PCND failed to get anything from it, can we really place all the blame squarely on the organ? Of course not! Organists all have strengths and weaknesses: some may be very good at getting the best out of small organs, at the expense of improvisation skills (which, I am informed, is one of PCND's strongest points). I think it would be an immodest (if not arrogant) musician indeed who claimed complete mastery over every aspect of their instrument and its repertoire. I know I've slaughtered a few sacred cows here, but I make no apologies for that. There seems to be a lot of deafness to criticism of certain favoured organs on this forum and truly vicious attacks on those who dare to question.

For the record, I did not claim that I 'failed to get anything from it'. However, I did say that I found it rather more limiting that you suggested.

Consider the stoplist:

http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D05164

Note that, whilst there is a G.O. Octave coupler, there is no Swell to Choir. Now, whilst of course one can vary which stops are coupled to other divisions, or one could play an octave higher (or lower), in reality, there simply is not that much variety.

Richard, tell me - have you been to Kilkhampton and heard it used, either accompanying a congregation (or a choir), or in solo repertoire. If so, I would be interested to know the following:

1) Who was the performer?
2) What pieces were played (in either capacity)?
3) What did he or she do with regard to registration  (and subterfuge), in addition to those points which I listed above?
4) Was there really as much variety in this gently-voiced instrument as you claim?

If, however, you have not been to Kilkhampton and heard it in the manner I described above, may I suggest that this is why I referred to a comment in your earlier post as 'snide' - not to say, inaccurate.

With regard to your observations on sacred cows and instruments of 'certain favoured' organs, I would be interested (and genuinely so) to know if you include the Walker organ of Wimborne Minster amongst this list. If so, please understand that I am well aware that there are many organ- and music-lovers who do not like this instrument (or who dislike some features of its design or voicing). For the record, I do not take such criticism personally. I may be sad that they are unable to appreciate what I regard as a truly musical organ (with the possible exception of the chamade). However, even in the case of the latter register, it is how one uses it. I would never use it as a Trumpet solo - the design, even the scale, is, I believe, fundametally flawed if the intention was to use it thus. However, used with tutti reeds (perhaps for a fanfare), the effect is arresting and actually, quite majestic. In addition, it can be used as a solo stop - but with qualifications. For example, in Bach's De profundis Chorale (Aus tiefer Not), I use it (well, with the addition of a colleague's troisième main) with the 8ft. and 4ft. fonds and the Cymbal - and with the Swell chorus coupled, and with both Octave couplers), in order to bring out the chorale melody which Bach apportioned for the Pedals. Yes, I can play it as written - but I find it deeply dissatisfying to do so. Whatever registration one chooses conventionally, will be wrong. Either the chorale melody will not stand out, or the bass will be too prominent. and, before you throw up your hands in horror at my mention of both Octave couplers, the Swell chorus is also coupled to the G.O. chorus - and it works well in this building. There is no perceived imbalance as a result of these couplers, simply a noble, dignified sound, with the commanding voice of the Chamade giving forth the chorale melody.

In case you are about to reply that this proves that I can only stand a plethora of high-pitched compound stops, let it be known that I always seek to find registrations which I feel enhance the piece I am playing at that time - and on that instrument. For that matter, on my 'main' piston channel, 'General 2' gives all the 8ft. fonds, the Pedal 16ft. and 8ft. fonds and all unison couplers. 'General 3' adds the G.O. 16fl. flue, the Swell Sub Octave and all the 4ft. fonds (except the Positive Chimney flute, which just eats wind and thus has a negative influence on this otherwise sonorous and full sound).

These are just one or two examples of how I endeavour to think carefully (and often unconventionally) about registration.

In case you need further reassurance that I am able to be inventive and to extract the best from small instruments, I was, for several years, organist here:

http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=R01624

Yes, it is larger than that at Kilkhampton (about four miles up the road) - but not by much.

I have given recitals on it (and in addition played many voluntaries before and after services) and my repertoire included Dupré's Prelude and Fugue, in B major, the Final from Vierne's First Symphony for Organ, several of Bach's 'Great' preludes and fugues, Gigout's Toccata, some Saint-Saëns, Alain's Litaines, Briggs' transcription of Cochereau's improvised concert piece Cantem Toto la Gloria and many other works. In all these items, I sought to find the sounds which I felt would show off each piece at its best - on this instrument and in this building - whilst at the same time, remain as faitful as possible to the composers' intentions.

Clearly, any calls for a Tuba, a 32ft. reed, a classical French (or even English) Cornet and a host of other registrations, were going to be either impossible - or severely compromised. Nevertheless, with some imagination, subterfuge and almost (occasionally) auto-suggestion, it was amazing how effective this little organ was.

So, before you accuse me of failing to extract the best from a small instrument, perhaps you would do me the courtesy of reading the above carefully - and consider more carefully your replies.

#135
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
March 09, 2012, 11:17:00 AM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 09, 2012, 08:22:20 AM
No doubt you'd prefer your small organ to look like this:
Pedal: Quintaton 16', Flute 8', Octave Flute 4', Mixture IV (19.22.26.29), Contra Bombarde 32', Bombarde 16', Chamade 8' (from BW)
Hauptwerk: Rohr Gedeckt 8', Principal 4', Fifteenth 2', Quint 1 1/3, Cymbel IV (22.26.29.33.), Chamade 8' (from BW)
Brustwerk: Chimney Flute 8', Rohr Flute 4', Blockflute 2', Quint 1 1/3, Octavin 1', Scharff IV (26.29.33.36.), Dulzian 16', Holzregal 8', Chamade 8'

plus super octave couplers on both manuals...

What is wrong with simply taking an organ as it is? Kilkhampton is only seven stops, of course it's going to be of limited interest tonally, but it's capable of a quite remarkable spread of repertoire [offensive snide remark removed]. Considering that your ideal organ would seem to be one with an unlimited supply of stratospheric upperwork, screaming chamades and a load of bizarre pedal mutations, I'm not surprised you didn't enjoy the Kilkhampton Willis.

Actually, No.

Given that you have not ever had to play this organ, either for accompanying a choir or the playing of solo organ works, I am not sure that you are qualified to judge its worth in this area.

Incidentally, your snide remark regarding '[offensive snide remark removed by Forum Admin]', is again without foundation. Please list the occasions when you have heard me play any organ for either accompaniment or solo work. Perhaps if you had been at Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford  when I was engaged in playing for a visiting choir, you might realise that I am actually quite imaginative, both in my handling of a 'strange' instrument and in my accompaniments.

The Kilkhampton instrument is, in practice, somewhat limiting.

For the record, you must surely know two things:

1) The only Pedal mutation on my own church instrument, is an extension of the Bourdon at 5 1/3ft. I have not specified any further mutations.

2) I have written (on more than one occasion) that I am extremely fond of the Walker instrument in Bristol Cathedral. This organ, the last time I played it, possessed neither 'screaming chamades' nor 'an unlimited supply of stratospheric upperwork'.
#136
Atheists' Corner / Re: Is God's house a urinal?
March 08, 2012, 11:13:12 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 08, 2012, 02:50:21 PM


Of course. I am not and never have been an atheist. What I am saying is, how can one who IS an atheist have faith in someone they believe to have been just an ordinary Nazarene carpenter?

Oh yeah, I should warn the forum that it now has another resident petrolhead... MM used to work in Formula One motor-racing and told me an interesting tale of a ride across Yorkshire beside the late (also Colin) McRae in a a Metro 6R4...

MM, get an E39 5-series instead of that moneypit Laguna - they're lovely cars, easy to work on because the engine isn't mounted sideways, and just about bombproof.

Sadly, I think that your head must be spinning like a camshaft, as you referred to "Stephen Dawkin", clearly an amalgam of Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawking.

MM, have you got Richard Hills' new CD of Southampton Guildhall's Compton? Highly recommended. Peter Hammond (who produced the CD and restored the organ) is on here as "Peter H" and the guy you need to talk to about all things electrostatics and electrones, Lucien Nunes, who worked on the Melotone, is also on here under his real name.

Richard - most of this post would have been better sent to MM as a PM.

pcnd5584
Administrator.
#137
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
March 08, 2012, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on December 27, 2011, 01:03:59 AM
Bruise, if you want a real multum-in-parvo job, just look up the Willis at Kilkhampton Methodist - arguably one of the most ingenious little instruments ever constructed!

http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D05164

Hmmm - I once had to play this for a concert (including solos and choral accompaniment of easily accessible repertoire).

Actually, in practice, I thought that it was dull and uninteresting - even allowing for its diminutive size. THe Willis/Lewis/Yates across the road is far more interesting. (Yes, I know that it is about three times the size.)
#138
Pipe organ gravestones and plaques / Re: St. Lawrence Jewry, London
March 08, 2012, 10:53:24 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 07, 2012, 07:37:30 PM


Oh, with regard to SLJ, I should perhaps point out that the person responsible for the junking of the old organ (there are those who will know to whom I refer, though I shall not name the individual concerned) was also partly responsible for the junking of the wonderful Willis (says he, from the incredibly informed stand-point of having been born some 12 years after its scrapping!) in favour of that irredeemable heap of Austrian junk at Christ Church, Oxford... and I make no apologies for condemning that organ. It isn't the worst example of bodgery around by any means, it's basically solidly built (except for the reportedly fragile action and their ridiculous raising of the case, makes it look like it's gone on an African neck-stretching course) but tonally it has nothing to recommend it whatsoever: such foundation tone as it has is extremely weak and bland, wholly incapable of carrying the hymnody and choral singing which is that cathedral's staple diet. I have also never heard rougher, thinner, more poorly-voiced reeds in my life: they rip your head off with their savagery, yet have no sonority to back up the savagery. Overall, it is hopelessly lacking in both power and richness: it makes its neighbour up at Gloucester look like an ideal cathedral organ (at least Gloucester is a thrilling recital organ with some semblance of richness...).

The action and winding at CC has, I am told, been appallingly unreliable in recent times. Now, if they'd kept and restored the Willis (which would have cost less than the new organ), that would not only be much more suitable and satisfying but also a hang sight more reliable! Willis pneumatic actions, when properly maintained, are just about bombproof. That certain of them have survived as long as a century without becoming completely unplayable is testament to the quality of Vincent Willis' designs and the workmanship of the craftsmen who made them. Meanwhile, the instrument known by some Oxford organ scholars as the Austrobortion is falling apart completely and has been for several years, despite now being only 33 years old, and is costing CC a fortune to repair and maintain.


In order to provide a slightly more balanced view, Richard:

I have played the Rieger organ at Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford on many occasions for a visiting choir. I have also had the privilege of being granted access at night, for practice.

Firstly, it is not an 'irredeemable heap of Austrian junk'. It was, in my opinion, well made by craftsmen. Yes, the voicing is bright and the reeds are not at all like those by FHW - or even Walker (at the turn of the previous century). However, if one uses the instrument intelligently, it can cope perfectly well with far more Anglican choral repertoire (for example) than you might suppose. And, yes, I did use the reeds - all of them at once, on occasion, for voluntaries. Many people stayed to listen and there were many kind comments (including during the prayers at the Sunday Mass, by one of the cathedral clergy) afterwards - and no complaints.

Whilst it is true that this small cathedral lacks the type of acoustic ambience with which Gloucester is blessed, nevertheless, this organ is capable of many beautiful etherial effects. It is, in addition, entirely able to lead a congregation in the singing of hymns and accompany a good ad hoc choir in the singing of 'cathedral' repertoire - psalms (Saint Paul's Psalter), canticles (ranging from Tudor, through Stanford to Kelly, in C) and anthems (again from Tudor to And I saw a new heaven - Bainton). Of course it depends on how it is played. This is not an organ that one can just switch on, sit down and make entirely beautiful sounds. It takes time and effort to get to know it. For example, my colleague still wants to know how I achieved the quiet 32ft. flue effect at the end of the Bainton. (Needless to say, I have no intention of sharing that little trick....)

You should know that the action was actually excellent and showed no signs whatsoever of undue wear or malfunction the last time I played it. However, two or three winters ago, during a spell of comparatively (for this country) severe weather, the cathedral authorities resorted to additional heating - which did cause some damage to the action. I suspect that it is this event which has precipitated the partial demise of the action of this instrument.

Two further points:

1) The raising of the case. Richard, obtain a copy of The Organs of Oxford (Positif Press), look at the monochrome photograph on p.22. Then explain to me how the present dignified composition, complete with its 'chaire' case is inferior to the previous dumpy case, with its disproportionate side-wings of rather uninspired design.

2) Lacking in power. I must admit that I am not sure how this instrument can be both 'lacking in power' and yet at the same time possess reeds which 'rip your head off with their savagery'. For the record, it is quite loud enough for the building. In addition, I found that the full fonds were a good, warm sound, with plenty of body; that is, unless one can only tolerate the type of opaque, oily phonon-quality of Diapason, which was popular in the first quarter of the twentieth century.

#139
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Display of enthusiasm for the organ from an unusual source...
March 04, 2012, 05:33:56 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 01:46:12 PM
I was under the impression that the Nave had either never been constructed or had been destroyed.

The first - in which case, it cannot be said to be no longer complete (at least with regard to a Nave). One cannot lose something which one never possessed.

Pedant mode off.
#140
Organs in danger / Re: Ayr-Cathedral of the Good Shepherd
March 04, 2012, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on March 04, 2012, 02:48:30 PM
Hi

Guildford Cathedral organ is not by R&D originally - It's originally a 3man by Nicholson of Bradford c.1886 for Rosse Street Baptist Church in Shipley (nr. Bradford) (main building now demolished), with a later 4th manual added by H&H.  It's not fair to blame R&D - maybe the organ would have been rather different if they had been able to start from scratch!

Obviously the pipework will have been revoiced - but the site of the old Shipley Baptist building is still visible (the current church meet in the former church halls) and is significantly smaller than Guildford Cathedral.  I guess economy was at the root of the decisions, and shows the problems inherent with taking an organ from one building and putting it in the other.  At Guildford, the Positive organ is R&D, other than that there are only 13 new stops and a few from elsewhere (presumably R&D stock) using secondhand pipes - the rest is Nicholson of Bradford or Harrisons.

Every Blessing

Tony

I would agree with Tony's comments above.

This is an interesting example of how each person perceives the aural effect of an instrument in a given building differently. Having played this organ on several occasions and also listened to it from several different places in the building (both at services and when it was being played in a largely empty building), I would offer the following observations:

1) Admittedly, the siting of the instrument is not ideal; however, given the other factors already mentioned, it was really the only possible location. This said, balance is difficult to get right. Even at the hands of one who knew this organ well and is one of the best and most sensitive accompanists I have ever heard, it did give the excellent choir a run for its money.

2) Whilst it is loud in the North Transept*, the organist to whom I have already alluded (AOC - please refrain from guessing or naming his identity), once told me that he was able to keep a full Nave in time during a hymn with the Swell Cornopean and both octave couplers (and precious little else).

3) I would disagree that it has a lack of tone-colours. Certainly the psalm accompaniments which I heard were superb, with a good deal of tasteful and entirely appropriate word-painting, which displayed a good variety of soft, beautiful effects.





* I heard a visiting organist play Franck's Troisième Choral after Evensong one Saturday and the G.O. and Pedal big reeds almost flattened me against the wall. It was all very exciting - and saved me a great deal of money on haircuts for about six months afterwards.
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