Organ matters - Organs matter!

Probably because there is a breed of wealthy bugger as you put it appropriately who thinks they have earned it so they can do what they like with what they have earned. They have no appreciation, let alone respect, for others our the work of others that they might have benefitted from.

This is why the understanding of the work of the Creator has universal value

Best wishes

David P

A friend directed me to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2FHrIkXuyU

Best wishes

David P

A friend tells me:

QuoteThey used to have a small workshop in Lewes and I frequently visited them. It was they who assisted greatly in the rebuilding of the 2 manual pipe organ in All Saints, Friars Walk, Lewes which I master-minded. What more can I say?
I knew at least 2 of their work-force quite well (all those years ago) and Trevor Reed (01273 phone number given if helpful) springs to mind - but whether he's still in the game or even still alive I don't know.

Best wishes

David P

Well the rise of the Jesus Cult and its overpowering of traditional Christianity in the flourishing of worship songs is precisely why the organ is in danger and disappearing.

I believe there are many more interpretations of the texts than the Jesus Cult espouses and that the concept and power of the Trinity holds good on far more intellectual levels.

Hebrew words could themselves have five meanings and in mediaeval times people were expected to seek meanings of the texts on five different levels.

A story I overhead at my Son's confirmation explains what I mean by the shift towards a Jesus Cult. A retired bishop conducting the service explained to someone afterwards that at the beginning of his ministry he went to a parish and the parishioners asked him "What's all this you talk about Jesus - your predecessor talked about God".

Whilst out of fashion, my beliefs are with those of the former priest.

There's something very rational that I'm looking at in choosing perspective on my vision of God through his son. We criticise Islam for worship of Mohammed but as Christians don't see the beam in our own eyes. Not until we can see the mote in our own eyes as Christians in worship of the Creator can we open the eyes of friends seeking the Creator through different traditions.

I spent my teens among an evangelical "Jesus loves you" group of friends and Jesus loved them so much that he didn't protect them from ills which claimed their lives early. The simplistic view of "evangelical Christianity" is intellectually shallow and unsatisfying, which is why it is unattractive to the mainstream who no longer go to church. In its promotion that the god of Islam is not the god of Christianity it demonstrates itself as being wholly misconstrued.

When in the real world of the mainstream we meet Muslims, Hindus, Hebrews and Buddhists who are devout, worthy and understanding of that something which we understand as the Creator, the jingoistic promotion of the Jesus Cult is seen to be only a business for the promotion of the cult.

Only when the worship of God as the primary focus comes back into fashion will organs be in demand and people will understand the power of the vision of God through the eyes of Jesus. Only then will peoples of different faiths be touched by the Holy Spirit to come together in understandings of peace.

Best wishes

David P

Modern worship songs - actually whenever I come across them I want to run out of the Church screaming. And I doubt if many who sing them will ever be much interested in organs. Perhaps http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,26.msg9854/topicseen.html#msg9854 answers exactly that.

The trouble I perceive is that the modern literal interpretations lead to a worship of Jesus in his personage.

A trinitarian view is quite possible without worship of the person of Jesus. It's capable of interpreting "Who are my mother and my brothers?" and does not have to result in the worship of Jesus, Son of Man, as God.

For me, Jesus Christ Son of God is the one who hears his father's word and does it. In that is the trinity but the trinity does not require worship of Jesus as God, as the Creator.

The Creator, the eternal, invisible, everywhere and all powerful is an understanding in the image of our understanding, and in our capacity to understand, and through the communication of the idea, the spirit of the Creator we are able to progress the Creation at one with it and as Jesus taught.

I do not get on with the "Jesus loves you" mantra.

"Master Master I love you and I know that you love me so much that you will do my homework for me won't you?"

"No I won't" he said to the soldiers who all died 100 years ago in the First World War with bibles in their breast pockets.

For me and I believe for many contemplation of God is just a little bit more complicated, and rather deeper, than modern evangelistic arm waving worship songs might otherwise try to seduce me with.

And for that rather stick-in-the-mud reason I prefer an understanding of God accompanied by an organ than by the jingoism of the Jesus Cult which says that the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity.

The Creator is the Creator and is the Creator of all. The breath of life is that which gives life to all who breathe. For me the direction of modern Christianity has driven into a corner and left the mainstream in the middle of the room.

Best wishes

David P

I'm wondering if the drop-off of interest in organs, expressed in this forum and according to others in Organ groups on Facebook, and the lack of response to Martin Renshaw's call to action is indicative of something else.

When I was growing up, church services rarely touched on the Acts of the Apostles, and focussed more upon Jesus' teachings about God. It was murmured that the Acts of the Apostles were in some way troublesome and not talked about much. Likewise much of the Epistles.

Now wherever I look the Church seems to focus upon the Church and its supremacy and upon worship of its teacher, rather than upon worship of God.

To those not involved in Charismatic nor Evangelical movements I wonder if that is seen by most, and rejected, for what it is.

It is no surprise therefore that demand for organs in Churches in worship of God is declining with the passing of those generations whose focus was upon God rather than the Teacher.

Best wishes

David P

Unwanted organs – what is their future?

So for these reasons and many more, organs are increasingly finding themselves 'unwanted'. Everyone 'in the business' knows about this but must the present decline continue ? Are the systems that exist to advise on organs, set up when organs were not only 'wanted' but seen as normal and good in themselves still really capable of protecting them in the new situation we are in ?

The second reason for calling a conference has been the experience of surveying over 800 medieval churches since 2012 for a research project under the general title of 'soundsmedieval'. While doing this work, to look for – and find – the surviving physical infrastructure of extensive daily musical activity in medieval churches, we met many people who are responsible for their upkeep. They see their congregations diminish every year, but are determined to try to keep their churches open. We did see and hear some well-loved and cared-for organs, but we also saw instruments, some very good ones, that were not used, and we were often told that finding an organist had become a serious problem. It was clear that maintaining these instruments was a cost whose position in the order of priorities in overstretched budgets was slipping or even non-existent.

Meanwhile, the Church of England has commissioned a number of reports in recent years which show that in most places further decline seems to be inevitable. Last year the Department of Culture, Media and Sport launched an enquiry-review into the Sustainability of Churches. This asked if local communities - whether they attend their local Church of England church or not – might have a 'responsibility' for the preservation or upkeep of church buildings. It also asked for suggestions over what churches need to offer in order to be attractive as venues for wider events and ventures. The results of this review, which closed for submissions early this year, were originally supposed to be reported by the receiving committee before Easter, then by early July, but now are due to be revealed 'in the autumn'. By all accounts, the DCMS was overwhelmed with ideas and reactions.

For organs, though, unless a well-thought- out new approach to the problem is found, the picture could be bleak. One recent suggestion has been to designate many rural churches as 'festival churches'. This sounds good until you realise that this means they will not be used for worship more than a few times a year, just at major festivals or for funerals. No doubt many churches in small or remote communities may go that way, but it doesn't need much imagination to see that organs in such places will deteriorate to the extent that they cannot be rescued at affordable cost. To ask an organ to perform perfectly after a long silence is obviously unreasonable, as it would also be to ask an organist to play an organ which might inevitably have become unreliable. If churches themselves become community assets, will the maintenace of organs be shouldered by the community as well, unless they see that it has a useful cultural or educational role ?

So a conference that will consider these things does seem like a necessary and timely idea. http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,2162.msg9849/

Contact : Martin Renshaw
email : renshaw.martin@wanadoo.fr

Theme :
Venue : St Stephen's church, Rosslyn Hill, Hampstead, 5 minutes' walk from
either Belsize Park Underground station (Northern Line, Edgware branch) or
from Hampstead Heath Overground station (Richmond-Stratford section)

Date : Saturday 23 September 2017, doors open at 10 a.m.

Aims of conference :

- To see what systems are currently in place in the various 'exempt
denominations' to safeguard organs, and how well these systems are
working.

- To share good and bad experiences,
- and to see if, in the new era of Sustainability, organs can be better protected.

- To discuss how they might be maintained in playing condition
- and to see how they might be used more widely for cultural purposes and teaching.

- To explore what might be done with good organs that need to be moved – do they really have to go abroad ? What organs need to be kept in the UK 'at all costs', and what systems are in place to achieve this aim ?

Chair : Peter Burman

Special guest : Judith Weir

Composer-in- residence : David Loxley-Blount ; a new piece by him will be premièred

Organ players : Timothy Roberts, Paul Nicholson

Films about 'unwanted organs' specially made by James Dawson

There is no charge for the conference, but conference registration and tickets for the 'Pipes and Strings' concert will need to be booked via the link on the www.soundsmedieval.org web-site. (See below for more details.)

Proposed programme for the day :

Open 10 am ;  tea & coffee

1st session starts at 10.30 with introductions from the Chair and Martin Renshaw. We then will hear up to 8 representatives, including those from the five English exempt denominations, the Churches ConservationTrust and the

Church Commissioners. They will speak about their advisory systems and their engagement with the safeguarding of organs for about 10 minutes each.

Lunch from 1 – 2.30 (sandwiches, soup, cake, fruit, tea/coffee) with live music and films, posters, power point shows etc

2nd session 2.30 – 4 : round-table and open discussion : Where do we go from here ?  How can systems be improved and will denominations work together ? What impact will there be from 'sustainability' issues?

4-4.30 : tea and entry of those coming just for the concert

4.30-6 : 'Pipes and Strings' : a concert to include music by Purcell and Bach, with organ concertos by Mozart, John Stanley, JohnWorgan and others, and the première of a new composition by David Loxley-Blount.

Organ player : Tim Roberts

String players : Conor James Gricmanis, James Orrell, Hatty Haynes and Bill Hunt

Organs : formerly unwanted organs of 1750, c1790 and 1829

The concert ticket will include a choice wine reception at 6 pm, the wine coming from places where English organs have gone to, or soft drinks.

Booking will need to be made through the soundsmedieval web-site for the conference (10 am to 4 pm) and concert (4 to 6). Please register in advance through this site, even though entry to the conference itself (10 am – 4 pm) is free. We are asking for a £10 donation on the day towards conference tea, coffee and lunch. Concert entry (and drinks) will be £10 if booked in advance through the web-site, or £12 on the door. Full-time student concert advance tickets are £8 ; the concert will be free for children who are 12 and under if accompanied by a responsible adult (maximum 2 children per adult).

What becomes interesting is that the instrument was part of the house at the time the house was listed and therefore should be part of the listing as Grade II*, the structural necessities of the instrument being part of the house.

What an absolute bargain for such an amazing house.



Best wishes

David P

Quote from: Gwas_Bach on July 15, 2017, 09:16:40 AM
http://www.nicholsonorgans.co.uk/portfolio/holy-trinity-cathedral-auckland/

Amazing! That stop list goes on and on.

Best wishes

David P

Has social media made this forum wholly redundant?

Best wishes

David P

It's a real pleasure to hear Radio 3 devoting time to an organ recital - and with David Goode playing Bach on the Metzler at Trinity there's real inspiration.

The history of the instrument is on
http://trinitycollegechoir.com/media/filestore/articles/OrganHistory2.pdf

I saw reference to its "idiosyncratic" tuning and this was music to my ears. Bach really comes alive on the Metzler and http://www.cambridgeorganacademy.org/bachand.htm relates that it's tuned to Werkmeister. If only more instruments were tuned to systems with perfect fifths . . .

Best wishes

David P

Many French, Italian and Maltese instruments of the 18th century are single manual so looking at Couperin and contempories might be the answer.

What these instruments lacked in tonal variations was made up by key, key changes in colour tuning. So it might be an idea to get the instrument tuned in Kellner, Kirnberger or Werkmeister temperaments. This opens up a wide variety of tonal colour beyond that which stops provide.

Best wishes

David P

What an amazing figure! Thanks so much for bringing him to light.

I found details of the village above Grasse near Cannes but haven't found reference to his place yet, and nothing about his place in Antibes.

http://www.paysbasque1900.com/2017/02/lincroyable-histoire-du-chateau.html has however good documentation about his place in Biarritx together with photos of the organ



Best wishes

David P

Thanks so much for this - I have been away and have not visited the forum in the past week.

Last year I had the opportunity to acquire two historic pianos from the Finchcocks musical museum in Kent.

One is an 1859 Broadwood concert grand - the one hired to Sir Charles Hallé for the Hallé Orchestra and which was purchased by a Manchester businessman for 250gns as it was the most amazing instrument he had ever heard, and the other, a grand of 1802 by Stodart. This can be head on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJonwRwgaeo

For the past decade I have been using the Kellner "Bach" temperament, a temperament based upon 7 perfect fifths and a variant of Werckmeister III

Both these pre-1870s instruments have something significant in common - the Quint harmonic is the principal and prominent harmonic and the tierce is completely absent. In subsequent pianos of the 1880s the Tierce comes forward in the sound often more strongly than the Quint.

The prominence of the Quint in both these and other earlier instruments is suggestive of its importance, and getting as many perfect fifths in the scale tuned spot onto the harmonics of the strings both increases resonance and provides key colour as the keys open doors to different sounds on the vibration spectrum, key colour in "chromatic" music, "chromatic" being not semitonal but related to the Greek word for "colour".

The nomenclature as well as the evidence of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert being particular about which keys they used for what leads to a certainty that such tuning is what they expected.

It's for these reasons that I'm now starting to talk not about Tnequal Temperament but "Classical Tuning" as these instruments and the change of instrument construction with the adoption of Equal Temperament make the nomenclature of "Classical Temperament" a certainty.

Best wishes

David P

The spec of the Qrendi instrument is

Principale 8
Voce Umana 8
Ottava 4
Flauto in XII - 12th
Decimaquinta 2 - 15th
Decimanona - 19th (two octaves and fifth)
Vigesimaseconda - 22nd - 1ft
Vigesimasesta - 26th - (three octaves and fifth)
Vigesimanona - 29th - four octaves - half foot

Best wishes

David P

Unfortunately there is a technical difficult in uploading the photos at the moment and I have been thwarted in my attempts to help on this. The instrument looks to be in exceptionally good condition and looks to be an excellent practice instrument.

Best wishes

David P

RCO Academy invites you to

join us in Worcester
in the Georgian tranquillity of St Swithun's Church for
cantantibus organis
exploring the unique musical landscape of the late mediaeval organ
-
FRIDAY 16 JUNE at 2.30pm
St Swithun's Church, Worcester WR1 2RH
with
KIMBERLY MARSHALL
Goldman Professor in Organ, Arizona State University
featuring
THE WETHERINGSETT ORGAN

Kimberly will coach organists of all ages in repertoire of the English pre-Reformation:
apply to play in Kimberly's masterclass (five places available for organists of all ages)
or
apply to observe
-
ONLINE BOOKING AT
https://www.rco.org.uk/events.php?eventid=492
(concessions for RCO Members)

I don't know. It's definitely a result of no tierces in the mixtures and might be psychological as the Ripieno is progressively built up. It was the 1778 instrument at Qrendi which particularly demonstrated the effect. Unfortunately my camera ran out of memory for video.

The place is an extraordinarily progressive culture of preservation which becomes even more valuable when passionately restored and maintained.

http://www.parroccaqrendi.org/old_organs.html

Robert gave me a copy of the CD of many of the Maltese organs
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Historic_Malta_PRCD1067.htm
and it's very refreshing and charming.

Details of the Qrendi instrument are in the sleeve notes but disc, case and sleeve notes have suffered entropic separation for the moment.

Best wishes

David P

This sounds most interesting. Where are you based? Might it be possible to send me a photo? Email antespam><?at:?/(gmail>-*^>dot$%&com

Best wishes

David P