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Messages - pcnd5584

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#101
Inspirational instruments / Re: Compton organ Cath Derby (UK)
May 17, 2012, 09:17:00 PM
Quote from: MusingMuso on May 16, 2012, 10:26:19 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on May 16, 2012, 04:52:23 PM
Quote from: MusingMuso on May 15, 2012, 05:57:31 PM
Wow!

Now if only the Parisian organists could have had organs like that!   8) ...

The playing is indeed excellent.

Welcome to Andrew Dewar, incidentally.

However, I am not sure that I would agree with MM's comment above. The Derby organ just does not sound at ease with this repertoire - it is too thick and bass-heavy (at least on these clips). The chorus reeds lack the characteristic (almost percussive) attack and éclat of good French reeds.

Andrew, no offence is intended - I do not think that anyone here likes my 'own' church organ, either....


=========================


They always sound extremely coarse and vulgar to my ears.  Take away the acoustics and they'd only be good for fair organs! ;)

MM

Apparently, at the time of the 1972-77 restoration and rebuilding of the organ in Saint Paul's Cathedral, the voicers were rather surprised at how coarse some of the chorus reeds (and 'big' reeds) were on the voicing machine - i.e., away from the vast acoustic, which clearly lends body (in addition to roundness) to the tone of these ranks.

Generally, I find French chorus reeds extremely exciting. Admittedly I have yet to hear any in a similar acoustic to that which obtains in my own church. However, I should have thought that Derby Cathedral could cope with more Willis-style chorus reeds. The Compton stops sound a little dull and undeveloped, although it is true that they suit the rest of this organ.
#102
Inspirational instruments / Re: Compton organ Cath Derby (UK)
May 16, 2012, 04:52:23 PM
Quote from: MusingMuso on May 15, 2012, 05:57:31 PM
Wow!

Now if only the Parisian organists could have had organs like that!   8) ...

The playing is indeed excellent.

Welcome to Andrew Dewar, incidentally.

However, I am not sure that I would agree with MM's comment above. The Derby organ just does not sound at ease with this repertoire - it is too thick and bass-heavy (at least on these clips). The chorus reeds lack the characteristic (almost percussive) attack and éclat of good French reeds.

Andrew, no offence is intended - I do not think that anyone here likes my 'own' church organ, either....

#103
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / The Battered Bride....
May 05, 2012, 09:45:56 PM
Is it just me, or do other board users who play in churches also have problems with brides?

Take the wedding which I had to play for today: it started with some electric post from my colleague, informing me he could not play for a wedding scheduled for 5th May, and could I do it? He had (thoughtfully) attached the original e-mail from the bride-to-be, together with her choices for the music. This included marching up the aisle to Pachelbel's Canon, processing out to Bach's Jesu, joy of man's desiring and Colours of day for one of the hymns.

She had arrived at this interesting selection by means of a website which purported to provide 'suitable' choices for wedding music.

She had also, to be fair, asked my colleague if he thought that her choices would be acceptable. Unfortunately, since he knew he was not going to be the organist for her nuptials, he simply replied to the effect that, yes, they would be fine.

As soon as I had read through the list (and imagined her walking proudly up the aisle to Pedal 16ft. and 8ft. Flutes, with a quiet 8ft. Flute joining in on the G.O. half-way up the aisle), I decided that, if only to retain my sanity on the day, I had better arrange to meet the young lady and her intending spouse, in order to discuss the music.

A couple of weeks later, on a rainy evening, we met at the church and I began by querying, as gently as I could, whether she really wanted to walk up and down the aisle to the pieces she had chosen. At this point, she assumed a petulant expression and declared "Well, your colleague thought they would be fine."  "Yes", I replied, "because he is not going to be here. If you had told him that you wished to march up the aisle to the theme from Spartacus, played on an accordion by a camp Portugese quantity surveyor, currently living in Arbroath, he would still have said that it was fine."

She seemed a little unconvinced by this so, sighing, I said "Look, both of you go down the Nave to the west end and process up while I play the Pachelbel." This they duly did and, arrived at the central crossing as I was about half-way through the first clavier phrase.

"Not a very grand entrance, is it?", I said.  Then I got them to walk up to the High Altar, and repeat the procedure in the other direction, while I played Jesu, joy (on Hautbois, Flute and Bourdon). After this, they were a little more interested in what I had to suggest.

In the end, she came in to Clarke's Trumpet Voluntary and went out to Handel's Arrival of the Queen of Sheba which, whilst perhaps making little sene on paper, was at least more aurally stimulating.

As far as the hymns were concerned, whilst I had to endure One more step along the road I go (played at a stately pace, on Fonds 16ft., 8ft. and 4ft.*), I did manage to kill the idea of Colours of day - simply by telling her that I had never heard of it.

I had also suggested that I play the Bach at the signing of the registers, which I did. Fortunately I only had to play it twice, since I had asked our curate (who conducted the wedding) to keep a tight rein on the photographer, in order that this part of the ceremony did not last a geological period.

Oh, I forgot to mention - she arrived late. As usual. (For brides generally, of course.) She had decided to hire a pony and trap - but presumably from a local farmer, instead of from a wedding car/transport company (who would have known how long to allow for the journey in this town, at this time of year - and whilst we endure yet further major 'road-scaping'). Fortunately there was no wedding scheduled to follow - although I did have two pupils still to teach.

The above is comparatively tame, considering the weddings I have played for previously. There was one, involving a couple both in the armed forces, which was - well, a bit odd. The bride was clearly drunk (and I do mean 'drunk'). She fell over whilst marching up the aisle at the start and became wedged between two pews. Fortunately she was apparently unhurt and simply laughed.... loudly.... for about six minutes. The vicar was little better: he arrived breathlessly about three minutes prior to the start of the wedding, looking a little dis-arranged. That is to say, his hair was sticking out at all angles and he smelled as if he had just attempted to set himself on fire.

Then there was the one where the wedding began conventionally, and continued quite sensibly right up until the time when the best man was supposed to hand the ring over to our officiating priest. There followed an unscripted silence, so I turned around to witness the said best man rooting frantically through the pockets of his suit - to no avail. I lost interest, only to regain it a few seconds later, when the entire assembled congregation heard him say "Oh bugger, it's on the kitchen table." An exasperated frown crossed the face of our priest; I am not sure whether this was due to the colourful language, or simply for the inconvenience. Anyway, I doubt that the brlde that day was the only one ever to have been married whilst sporting a chunky brass curtain ring, which on this occasion was procured at white-heat from the adjacent church rooms....

So, is it just me - or do others have similar experiences they could relate?



* I was worried that the congregation would start clapping rhythmically if I played it in a sprightly manner.
#104
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
May 05, 2012, 09:03:10 PM
Quote from: Gwas_Bach on May 05, 2012, 06:00:50 PM
An interesting article by Norman Cocker on some of his ideas for small church organs. I wouldn't mind playing some of these!

http://cdmnet.org/Julian/schemes/cocker2.htm

Interesting in a way. But I should much rather have played the instrument over which he presided at Manchester Cathedral - that is, in its incarnation immediately prior to its rebuilding by the German firm of Luftwaffe....

On paper it made far more sense that the slightly weird instrument which currently inhabits the choir aisles of this cathedral. On his appointment (occasioned by the sudden death of Norman Cocker), Allan Wicks was able to secure a few modifications to the original scheme; however, there was still much that was unconventional.
#105
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
May 03, 2012, 11:34:56 PM
Quote from: flared_ophicleide on May 03, 2012, 01:51:16 AM
My trip to the UK next yr includes a visit to Worcester Cath.  I know little about the organ installed in '08, but I'd like to look at the Handel organ and, from what I gather, it still exists, the Scott case in the transept. ...

When you do get to Worcester, perhaps you could ask them when they intend to build the Transept/Nave Organ - it seems to have gone very quiet on this subject since the inauguration of the new Quire Organ.

Unfortunately, until this second instrument is built - along with the removal of Scott's huge case from the South to the North Transept, the Quire Organ is without its 32ft. flues - which is a great pity. The two full-length stops, Double Open Wood and Contra Violone* (Metal), are excellent examples. There is, in addition a 'second' 32ft. reed, simply called 'Trumpet', which was added by H&H in 1972, as a three-stop unit - all (slightly oddly) labelled 'Trumpet', with only the pitch length to distinguish each stop. As far as I know, this rank is still in place. For that matter, I think that the lowest octave of the Hope-Jones Diaphone 32ft. is still in situ in the Transept case. The pipes were too big to remove without dismantling most of the case.



* There is, of course, also a silent upwards extension of this rank, at 16ft. and 8ft. pitches - which was inexplicably disconnected from the former Quire organ at the time of the partial rebuild by Wood, Wordsworth & Co., in 1978.

I hope that these stops (with the possible exception of the Diaphones)  will also be made available on the Quire Organ, once the scheme is completed. The photographs I have seen of the new Quire console are not quite large or clear enough to enable every stop-head to be read, so I am not sure whether or not it is intended to re-instate these stops.
#106
Inspirational instruments / Re: Organs that train our ears
May 02, 2012, 04:00:16 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on May 02, 2012, 02:24:56 AM
Ah, quite right too. When I said liturgical accompaniment, I meant precisely what you say, leading a large congregation. The brassy trumpets don't so much give a clear, incisive lead as take an angle-grinder to the West end wall... they're HORRIBLE.

Looking on the NPOR, it's also apparent how much else has been spoiled about the Abbey organ - Large Open Diapason removed (ALWAYS a BAD THING), Choir organ mucked about, split in two with a sort of Positiv department that stands out like a sore thumb, Trombas revoiced and renamed but the Harmonics retained... this organ needs an historic restoration back to its original 1937 ethos. Build a new console for it, too, with six manuals and enough stop-jamb space to reconnect the Celestial (which is only 17 stops, including a split 16ft, a spare slide and two percussions) - or make it a floating department on the existing console, there should be stop-jamb space when all the neoclassical fripperies have been thrown in the Thames (preferably with Conservative Party front bench ministers and News International executives tied to or shoved inside the pipes)...

So you do not like it much, then....?

The success of this instrument is largely dependant on whether or not one views an eclectic organ as necessarily a bad thing. If this is the case, then one would indeed have to attempt to restore it to something approaching its 1937 incarnation. Whilst possibly solving one problem, it might simply create a few new ones. For a start, the G.O. chorus, having been re-balanced, would have to be 'un-balanced' again, as it were, with the re-instatement of the Large Open Diapason - which, I think I am right in saying, was not actually regarded as part of the chorus, even by Arthur Harrison. Incidentally, at least the pipes are still in the building (under the floor of the Choir Organ).

With regard to the G.O. revoiced reeds, although the 'Harmonics' was retained, the existing quint Mixture was, I think, re-balanced and was augmented with a new Sharp Mixture III.

I know one who played this instrument almost daily for about ten years, and who has an extremely high regard for it. The person concerned is also extremely choosy about the type of instrument to be played and thus does not give praise lightly.

I have only played it once, but I thought that it was basically good - although still a little on the tubby side in a few places.
#107
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
May 02, 2012, 12:06:44 AM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 30, 2012, 11:19:08 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on April 30, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 28, 2012, 01:57:42 AM
Quote from: MusingMuso on March 13, 2012, 07:28:46 PMBasically, the Great Organ is totally dominant and usually very loud (this is a feature of Arthur Harrison organs). The Swell organ is next in loudness, but quite underpowered as compared with a Fr.Willis organ.

You are certainly incorrect regarding Worcester, nor is it at St Mary Redcliffe - nor, in fact, with any Arthur Harrison organ I've ever encountered.

Actually I would have said that the obvious meaning of MM's quote is a true and accurate picture.

You are certainly incorrect regarding Worcester. I played the old organ for a number of services and I can assure you that the G.O. was indeed very loud - with the Swell and Choir very much secondary divisions. And this has been my experience with the other H&H instruments which I have played - although I cannot speak for Redcliffe, since this is one which I have not played.

This is why, in some ways, an instrument by FHW is better for playing Bach, since there is a better chance of finding a reasonably strong secondary chorus - albeit with tierce mixtures.

I think what I was saying was not that the Great WASN'T very loud, but that the Swell WAS. Certainly, that at Redcliffe is, according to all who have told me about it (I HOPE to hear it later this year), staggeringly loud (with the Pedal 32' and 16' Ophicleides also in the box). At Worcester, wasn't there a reasonable chorus on the Solo manual (effectively a sort of Bombarde division)? NPOR shows six stops - 8.4.2.III (22.26.29).16.8. - and I seem to recall this being rather loud (though my memories are those of a very small boy).

This may be so. However, the Swell Organ at Redcliffe, with twenty-one ranks, is far from being a typical vintage Harrison design - in every aspect. For one thing, it is situated in a (comparatively reverberant) purpose-built stone chamber, formed from the north-east angle of the North Transept. This chamber actually forms the expression box. The shutters are mounted behind the open tracery of the 'windows'. Secondly, due to its positioning, it mixes Solo stops (orchestral strings, flutes and reeds) with a Diapason chorus. Partly due to its position in the church (and the distance from the rest of the instrument), I suspect that the chorus is voiced more powerfully than was usual H&H practice at the time. However, I would have to look back through my copies of The Organ, in order to verify the wind pressures used.

Worcester - this is indeed correct. The entire Solo Organ (a Bombarde in all but name) spoke on a pressure of 250mm - around 75 - 80mm higher than FHW's normal pressure for his G.O. chorus reeds.

I know that there is now little point in bemoaning what cannot now be - but I do wish that this instrument had not been unceremoniously discarded, but rather restored. When I played it, I found it to be a truly heroic instrument, with a wealth of softer tone-colours, good (if quite big) diapason choruses, colourful (and musical) reeds - and a tutti which was both awesome and which suited the 'feel' of the building like a glove.

In addition, apart from the Swell Gedeckt 8ft., everything worked perfectly, the instrument was well in tune - and I was unable to detect any wind leaks or other serious problems anywhere.

Funny that - particularly since it was de-commissioned shortly after this....
#108
Inspirational instruments / Re: Organs that train our ears
May 01, 2012, 11:45:12 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 30, 2012, 03:25:02 AM
... I've also spent quite a lot of time listening to the Westminster Abbey organ and got to tinker around on it a little on one occasion. Suffice to say, I don't like it much. Very rich, very powerful, quite bright but there's just something missing. ...  Plus the Bombarde division is pretty pointless - almost all of it is borrowed, so it really doesn't add much to liturgical accompaniment (unlike its counterpart at St Paul's) and those brassy trumpets are just awful, not to mention a total misfit with the rest of the organ. I'd much rather they used the top manual and stop jamb space to reconnect the Hill Celestial division, which still sits in the South Transept Triforium, awaiting an end to its so-far 76-year-long silence. ...

An interesting post.

Just to pick up on one point: the Bombarde Organ at Westminster Abbey. For the record, 'alomst all of it' is not borrowed - the three  G.O. Posaunes and the Solo Tuba Mirabilis are playable from this division., the rest is entirely straight - and separate. This includes foundations at 16ft., 8ft., 4ft. and 2ft, a IV - VI rank Mixture, a Grand Cornet V and three (straight) chorus reeds, viz: Bombarde 16ft., Trumpet 8ft. and Clarion 4ft.

You also appear to have mis-understood its true function. It is not supposed to add anything to liturgical accompaniment - it is primarily for leading a large congregation in the Nave - when the brassy trumpets are jsut the thing to cut trhough everything else and give a clear, incisive lead. In order to do this, it is, by its very nature, likely to stand apart from the rest of this instrument.

However, I do agree regarding the 32ft. reed. A larger, more Bombarde-like (i.e., free-toned - but not a free reed, naturally) stop would be ideal.

The Celestial Organ - I fear that, at twenty-three stops (including couplers), there would not be room anywhere on the jambs for this section, however interesting it might be to have it re-connected. Stop-keys on this console would look (and indeed did look) tacky.
#109
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
April 30, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 28, 2012, 01:57:42 AM
Quote from: MusingMuso on March 13, 2012, 07:28:46 PMBasically, the Great Organ is totally dominant and usually very loud (this is a feature of Arthur Harrison organs). The Swell organ is next in loudness, but quite underpowered as compared with a Fr.Willis organ.

Erm, that certainly wasn't the case at Worcester, nor is it at St Mary Redcliffe - nor, in fact, with any Arthur Harrison organ I've ever encountered.

Actually I would have said that the obvious meaning of MM's quote is a true and accurate picture.

You are certainly incorrect regarding Worcester. I played the old organ for a number of services and I can assure you that the G.O. was indeed very loud - with the Swell and Choir very much secondary divisions. And this has been my experience with the other H&H instruments which I have played - although I cannot speak for Redcliffe, since this is one which I have not played.

This is why, in some ways, an instrument by FHW is better for playing Bach, since there is a better chance of finding a reasonably strong secondary chorus - albeit with tierce mixtures.

#110
Inspirational instruments / Re: Organs that train our ears
April 28, 2012, 05:45:54 PM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 28, 2012, 03:35:49 PM
A new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akUyqTIw-u0

Thanks, Mr Dewar !

Pierre

Excellent playing.
#111
Inspirational instruments / Re: Organs that train our ears
April 26, 2012, 10:20:51 PM
Quote from: MusingMuso on April 26, 2012, 01:01:35 PM
... What I do know, is that when I hear an organ with hugely prominent tierces, fairly unattractive reeds, experimental labial stops and a chorus ensemble which just doesn't work, it isn't my ear which needs re-training. My ear knows only too well that the organ is the work of a tonal amateur.

Indeed, the Trost "experiment" cannot, I believe, be considered a success. It has all the unfortunate side-effects of an instrument built to provide specific novelty sounds, which finds a certain resonance in the master-works of Robert Hope-Jones, where tonal integrity was sacrificed on the altar of mismatched solo colours, extreme gravity and colossal basses.

Without wishing to initiate a pitched battle, I would agree with this viewpoint to an extent. I do not know whether Trost was a tonal amateur - I do know that, if he were alive and trading today, there is nothing on this earth which would induce me to employ him to build an organ. The recordings I have heard of his instruments sound both eccentric and unattractive to my ears.

Quote from: MusingMuso on April 26, 2012, 01:01:35 PM
Were I the organist at Walterhausen, I think I would have to install a very violent tremulant and a revolving statue of Marlene Dietrich; playing nothing but excerpts from Johnny Kander's "Cabaret."

MM

Alternatively, one could contact a well-spoken young man with a north-country accent who, in the company of an older gentleman of military bearing, would come and rebuild the organ, scrapping much of its fearsome tonalities and installing new chorus work, including nine new ranks of mixtures on the G.O. ....
#112
Inspirational instruments / Re: Organs that train our ears
April 26, 2012, 10:03:09 PM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 25, 2012, 07:49:00 AM
A disturbing organ, a disturbing sound; had it been in the western part of Germany,
be sure it would have been demolished up to the last nail. But Fakt ist, this is what
J-S Bach had in his ears as a tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44LT3A5x4qA

.....And to modern ears, it sounds off-tune, so that we need to re-educate ourselves
if we want to hear Bach in his true colors. Alternatively, we can imagine "Bach never
played organs he liked save while in the North" etc.

Best wishes,
Pierre

I have to admit I did indeed find this disturbing. Not simply the tuning, temperament or the continuous tierces - but also the fact that the chorale melody was virtually indistinguishable. I am sorry, but I cannot believe that this was the sound which Bach had in mind when he wrote this piece.

I much prefer the recording from Nôtre-Dame de Paris, by Philippe  Léfébvre (and a third hand for the cantus firmus), recorded before the organ was rebuilt. It is a truly wonderful sound *. Personally, I do not think that this piece works with just one player - either the chorale tune (in the upper pedal part) is not prominent enough - or the lower pedal part is too prominent. Even with a pedal divide facility it would not wokr, since one would have to change the divide point in a number of places whilst playing.



* The counterpoint was played on the plenum with a gentle sub-unison rank, with the chorale being played in octaves on the Boisseau chamades, with the addition of a smaller chorus, including a high-pitched Cymbale. This description may appear odd, but the sound is both majestic and thrilling - and a world away from the confused reedy jangle of the recording above.
#113
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Saint Mary's Church, Newark, Notts. Does anyone know what is happening here ?
April 26, 2012, 07:05:49 PM
Does anyone here know anything about recent events at Saint Mary's, Newark with regard to the choir and organist/director of music?

Since I have no wish to spread rumours or unwittingly give erroneous information, I would simply ask that, if anyone does actually have any definite information (which is acknowledged to be fact, as opposed to heresay, please), could they contact me by PM, please?

Thank you.
#114
YouTube and other MP3 recordings of organs and organ music or other music of relevance / Re: Loud Organs His Glory
April 18, 2012, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 18, 2012, 07:15:33 PM
Hi PCND - sorry, should have made things clearer. I have now inserted a quote from one of MM's posts on this thread to which I was replying.

Now it makes more sense....
#115
YouTube and other MP3 recordings of organs and organ music or other music of relevance / Re: Loud Organs His Glory
April 18, 2012, 02:26:05 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 18, 2012, 12:52:01 AM
I can think of certain organs in this country where historic material was well respected by the Romantic builders! There's a lot of Renatus Harris in the Chichester Cathedral Hill, for example - and when Arthur Harrison rebuilt and enlarged the 1840s classical Bishop at Jesus College, Cambridge, he left Bishop's Great and Swell (which became Choir and Echo) well alone, adding his own Great and Swell as well as a bit more of a Pedal division. Saint Peter's Cornhill - a Schmidt rebuilt by Hill and later R&D - still has much of the Schmidt pipework in it, essentially unaltered I believe but obviously tuned to equal temperament. The old Hill console survives in the gallery, disconnected and replaced by R&D's - it has pinned to the music desk a piece of paper, on which is scrawled a few bars of music and the signature 'Felix Mendelssohn'. The Bridge at Christ Church Spitalfields is another example - though why it is being restored to original condition, without pedals, when the later additions were so sensitively done is beyond me.

I am sure that others may be able to cite similar examples.

Richard - on the subject of the wrong place: is it possible that you should have posted this as a reply in the Mixture Compositions thread....?
#116
Restoring pipe organs / Re: Pedal Acoustic Bass 32
April 17, 2012, 10:04:37 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on February 29, 2012, 07:25:49 PM
I think that the 32ft stopped flue comes up against problems with standing waves. Many have been made in recent times but I'm told they are rarely satisfactory.

I am not sure about standing waves - I would need to do some more research. However, I know of a few examples of stopped Bourdon-type ranks which make excellent 32ft. pedal stops. One or two are situated in quite dry acoustics and are still most effective. Some are even better than open pipes. (As an example of a bad open stop in a superb acoustic, I would cite the 32ft. wood stop at Truro Cathedral. I am not alone in finding this to be most disappointing. Some notes are inordinately loud - low A, for example - whilst several others are virtually inaudible anywhere in the cathedral.) This said, the 32ft. metal stop at Salisbury is excellent, as is the metal Contra Violone at Exeter - apart, that is, from the lowest four notes, which are rather poor. Whether they would be better if the area around the mouths was spotted metal, instead of zinc *, I am not sure.



* Experiments have shown that, whilst there is a perceptible difference in the quality (in both senses) of the tone of a flue pipe when different materials are used around the mouth area, there is virtually no difference with regard to the body of the pipe above the mouth.
#117
YouTube and other MP3 recordings of organs and organ music or other music of relevance / Re: Loud Organs His Glory
April 17, 2012, 09:38:22 PM
Incidentally, it does appear that the second and third pages of this thread should be split from the original title and made to form a new thread. I shall have a look at this later - unless David wishes to do this?
#118
YouTube and other MP3 recordings of organs and organ music or other music of relevance / Re: Loud Organs His Glory
April 17, 2012, 09:32:38 PM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 13, 2012, 08:11:16 AM
So far, so good. Now some examples of thuringian organs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2QtMwpa9aM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG4dEu5mlWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY53wYOKt7Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5WUJSouEw

I listened to most of each of the first three. I only managed about a minute of the fourth, before the tuning drove me to distraction.

I am concerned that the case for suggesting that instruments built by Trost are ideal for the music of Bach is pehaps less clear-cut than is being stated. He only attempted two major projects in his lifetime - and one of those (Waltershausen) had to be finished by another builder. In fact, Trost probably took almost twenty years to build this instrument (so far, I have been unable to find a precise documentation of the dedication), but might possibly have been completed by May, 1741. ...'These historical facts seem very strange when one considers what a significant organ project was involved. In the case of similarly placed organs, such as Zacharias Hildebrandt's organ in the St. Wenzelskirche in Naumburg (also a city organ project), there was a crowning completion ceremony with famous examiners (such as Bach and Silbermann) and an opulent feast of organ music. No report of anything of this kind has been handed down to us about Waltershausen'.

With regard to the first clip, I am afraid that the fact that the instrument appeared to be quite out of tune (as opposed to tuned to another temperament) rather put me off. In any case, I found the continuous use of the Pedal 32ft. reed extremely wearisome. The effect of this type of chorus work (with the tierce mixtures) again, I found tiring to listen to. I also felt that it obscured some of the part writing.

The second clip: again, the tierce mixtures simply came over as a reedy jangle - which quickly became tiring.

I thought that the third clip was less reedy, but also lacked any real brightness - and I do not simply mean that it should have been played using a high-pitched Cymbale - but it did sound as if there was little above 4ft. pitch for most of it. If there was a 2ft., it was rather weak. Of course one does not need a plethora of quint mixtures for Bach, but this piece, to me, demands something more 'sparkling' than this.

I am quite happy to accept that some here have a liking - even a preference - for this type of sound for the music of Bach. However, I am less happy (and certainly unconvinced) that these instruments are to be considered the preferred media of his own music, by Bach.




Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 13, 2012, 08:11:16 AM
... But one thing we can already hold for sure: something like 8-4-2-Quint Mixture Bach never drawn in his life, save maybe during his months in the north ! ...

Pierre

I would agree with MM, here. I am not sure that we can state this as a fact. Surely the truth is that we do not know exactly what Bach would have done. We do know that, whilst he may have liked the organ at Altenburg, he also admired the instrument at Mülhausen - which did contain a number of quint mixtures.

Given his well-documented virtuosity and genius, it is not unreasonable to suppose (as MM has propounded) that Bach would have delighted in making the best out of whatever instrument he was playing and, ignoring any kind of rules of any school of thought, striven to produce the most musical result possible.
#119
Organ building and maintenance / Re: Mixture Compositions???
April 17, 2012, 07:13:11 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on April 17, 2012, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on April 17, 2012, 04:12:27 PM
Out of interest, were the G.O. reeds at Belfast retained exactly as before in 1975, or were they revoiced, perhaps on a lower pressure and/or with thinner tongues?

As far as I know, they were not altered, although they would have been refinished when the rebuilt organ was installed in the new transept and I guess quite a lot can happen in such a process.  The way they made perfect chorus reeds to the 1960s/70s Positif was quite incredible - and not considered as a possibility by many players.  They were as smooth as butter, but not terrifically loud compared with some.  But, I believe Schnitger's chorus reeds were often as smooth as he got make them 9leathered shallots and all), so perhaps it wasn't such a chalk-and-cheese mix after all.

Incidentally, at the rebuild, a Sub Octave Reeds coupler disappeared (as did the Octave, Sub and UO on the Solo), which messed up the concept of the Great.  It's back again now.

Thank you for this, David - very interesting!

I was surprised to read of the loss of the Solo octave couplers, but glad to hear that at least the Sub Octave Reeds has been re-instated.

I note your point regarding the use of the G.O. reeds as Positive chorus reeds - this is also interesting and, as you state, not necessarily something which would immediately present itself as a viable option. On my own church instrument, I can do the opposite - the Positive Crumhorn makes a good chorus reed, either for the Positive or the G.O. - or as part of a combination to produce a surprisingly realistic faux Tuba Minor.
#120
Organ building and maintenance / Re: Mixture Compositions???
April 17, 2012, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 16, 2012, 02:27:49 AM
PCND should look at the specifications of two unaltered vintage EMS organs - the 4/197 in Woolsey Hall, Yale, and the rather smaller 4m in the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Rosary, Toledo, Ohio. These instruments have several manuals on which are present quite complete diapason choruses up to quint mixtures of a considerable number of ranks (four being generally the minimum). In addition to these, there can be found tierce mixtures, Harrison-type Harmonics and even Cornets. Labelling EMS in the same league as Robert Hope-Jones in terms of use of choruswork is unfair to Skinner and misunderstands what he and Hope-Jones (whom EMS knew and worked with briefly, but disliked and disagreed with profoundly) sought to achieve.

Actually I have. But you simply cannot judge an instrument effectively from a paper specification. Ralph Downes was initially quite excited to receive the stop-list of the Princeton Chapel organ, but was bitterly disappointed when he played and heard it for the first time. (And please do not reply with comments regarding his hearing - the only source I know of this, was from Aeolian-Skinner. It seemed perfectly fine when I met him.)

Perhaps you can point me to exactly where (and in what context) I put Skinner in the same league as Hope-Jones; it would help to see exactly what I wrote, since I cannot now recall this.

Listen to what HW III wrote, on hearing large Skinner organs for the first time (remember that Willis was extremely well-travelled and kept himself well-informed of developments in several key countries):

"Skinner does not treat upper work in the manner we consider correct on this side of the Atlantic. The principal is usually less than two-thirds the power of the 8ft., with the fifteenth (if present: it was frequently omitted on quite decent sized schemes) smaller again in proportion. The mutation and mixture work (when present) is of dulciana power, and results in an overwhelming dominance of the unison in the flue build-up, the chorus reeds coming on without having been led up to." *  Remember also, that Skinner frequently leathered his diapason stops. There are further comments regarding other instruments (for example, that at the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine, NYC), which serve further to higlight the deficiency in the chorus structures of these instruments.



* Article by Henry Willis III (America Visited). pp. 117-8. The Organ, October 1925. Musical Opinion; London.

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 16, 2012, 02:27:49 AM
Has PCND encountered a Harrison in which the Trombas are enclosed? They sometimes were and still are at King's Cambridge (possibly others too, but I can only remember that one off the top of my head) - and, indeed, in Dixon's designs (such as at Whitehaven) they were to be found on the Orchestral manual, with their own transfer-to-Great coupler.

Yes, I have. For the record, All Saints'. Margaret Street (an instrument on which I occasionally used to practise) is another example, although here, the G.O. reeds are more akin to fairly normal Trumpets than Trombe.


Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 16, 2012, 02:27:49 AM
I have yet to hear an example of A.H. Trombas (trombe isn't a word)...

Yes, it is - it is the correct plural of the feminine singular 'tromba'. If we are going to descend into arguments regarding the perceived mis-appropriation of English grammatical construction to loan-words, we shall be here until the proverbial cows come home.

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 16, 2012, 02:27:49 AM
... or Harmonics live - my own experience of his organs being confined to smaller examples where neither is present - but I would be interested to know why the Harmonics stayed unenclosed on the Great when the Trombas were enclosed and sometimes on a different manual. I note that, in a recent restoration, All Saints Margaret Street regained its long-lost Harmonics...

I recall that there was a Harrison-type Harmonics on the Solo organ at Downside Abbey. It was derived, I believe, from string ranks and could be used with them as an additional tonal colour. Indeed, Compton considered this combination so successful that he gave it its own stop-button, labelled "Kalophone". This can be found in other Compton organs, too, including Weston-super-Mare Parish Church. It can be heard here: http://www.walckerorgel.de/gewalcker.de/Derett%20MP3/12%20-%20Suite%20Evocatrice-%20Tierce%20En%20Taille%20Et%20Recit%20De%20Chromorne.mp3.

There is also, on the Bombarde manual, as well as Trombas 8 & 4 and Tubas 16, 8 & 4, an extraordinary "Grand Cornet", composed thus: 1.5.8.10.12.14.15.16.17.19.22. Note the Septième at 2 2/7, an octave lower than in Harrison Harmonics, and the two Tierces, plus a Neuvième 1 7/9. What does PCND think of the recent addition of an independent Septième to the Gloucester Cathedral organ's Positive division?

It is not a recent addition - it was altered (simply by moving up the old Larigot of the West Positive by three notes) at the time of the 1999-2000 rebuild. Trust me, I was having lessons on this instrument then; and there were a few changes that were not publicised at that time.

With reagrd to derived compound stops at Downside Abbey, the problem with this is that it produces discrepancies in tuning - it is simply not enough to obtain a Tierce from a Vox Angelica.


Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 16, 2012, 02:27:49 AM
Given the choice between the pseudo-French screamers at Gloucester (which obliterate the Downes-vandalised Harris Great diapason chorus) and big, wide English Trombas with tierce mixtures and big-scaled diapasons for company, I'll take the latter every time. Compton's chorus reeds were extremely fine - as Richard Hills' new CD at Southampton Guildhall demonstrates amply. I may soon upload a couple of tracks off that disc to YouTube, pending permission from Peter Hammond.

Each has a right to their own preference - but I cannot allow you to accuse Downes of vandalism - particularly since some of the Harris case pipes had been silent for many years. In any case, since there are a number of well-documented instances of organ builders doing far worse to old pipe work, this is hardly relevant; for example, Wells Cathedral (Green / FHW) or Worcester Cathedral (Hill / Hope-Jones) - now  that was vandalism.
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