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Messages - pcnd5584

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#61
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: NPOR
December 09, 2013, 02:43:57 PM
Quote from: Janner on December 08, 2013, 07:23:22 AM
I notice the NPOR has been given a new look and some updates are filtering through - excellent.

Many thanks to the hard working individuals who are taking the trouble to maintain this valuable resource.

I am glad that you have some new editors, Tony; although despite offering twice, I have still not been contacted by your colleague....
#62
Organ Music and Repertoire / Re: Playing Bach's 'Wachet Auf' on a two-manual organ
December 07, 2013, 01:40:23 PM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on December 07, 2013, 09:51:19 AM
Hi

The Barenreiter urtext edition doesn't show any registrations.

Every Blessing

Tony

Indeed. Aside from a couple of 'Organo pleno' markings, the only other of which I am aware, is that in the Orgelbüchlein, on the Chorale Prelude Gott. durch deine Güte (or Gottes Sohn ist kommen). and these are fairly boring* (although I always play this piece at Advent, using the nearest equivalent registration). Does anyone know of any others which are likely to be by Bach?



* Clav. Principal 8 Fuß. Pedalclav. Trompete 8 Fuß.
#63
Organ Music and Repertoire / Re: Playing Bach's 'Wachet Auf' on a two-manual organ
December 06, 2013, 04:35:21 PM
Quote from: Ian van Deurne on December 02, 2013, 10:40:16 AM

The other point is that BWV 645 is one of the only pieces by Bach where he left (some?) details for registration;

Ruckpositiv:  Rohrflote 8', Sesquialtera II   (12, 17 - non repeating).
Oberwerk: Fagott 8'
Pedal: Subbass 16'  (no 8' or couplers are mentioned).


Best wishes
Ian.

Are you sure these are by Bach?

The 'gap' registration (8ft. flute and then nothing in between that and a Sesquialtera) would be unusual for that time. This si not to say that Bach was not thoroughly capable of being inventive - or simply throwing the rule book out of the window. However, I have two editions of this (both for two claviers), and in neither is any registration given - other than as  editorial suggestions.
#64
Organ registration / Re: 32ft on a manual
November 16, 2013, 09:07:53 AM
Quote from: David Drinkell on November 16, 2013, 08:43:21 AM
Small-scale and fairly free, I think.  After all, an organ which ran to such a stop would have something else for the big 32' pedal reed effect.  I'm thinking more growl than mere flatulence....

It would certainly have to be a fairly large instrument; even with a half-length bass octave, the expression box would need to be quite large.
#65
Organ registration / Re: 32ft on a manual
November 15, 2013, 11:50:31 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on November 09, 2013, 09:03:19 PM
... Then there's the accompaniment aspect.  A 16' reed with the sub on can be handy in the psalms when there's a bit of smiting to be done or the weather is clouding over. ...

Surely in order for this to be effective, the reed in question would need to be of slender scale and with the minimum of tonal 'body' (which would, arguably, make it rather less suitable at its own pitch) - otherwise the sound would be muddy and heavy. I have to avoid this type of registration on my own church instrument for this very reason. The Swell Double Trumpet is not small in scale and, if I were to use it with the Sub Octave coupler, the result would be thick, gritty and unpleasant.
#66
Organ registration / Re: 32ft on a manual
November 15, 2013, 11:44:33 PM
Quote from: Gwas_Bach on November 11, 2013, 10:38:52 PM
Jean Guillou's organ in St Eustache has a 32' Contrebasson in the Récit.

http://vandenheuvel-orgelbouw.nl/en/component/k2/item/403-sainteustacheparis-en.html

Indeed.

I have played this instrument once (with Guillou registering for me), although I cannot particularly recall the effect of the 32ft. reed on the Récit. (Or even if I actually used it.)

With regard to 2ft. clavier reeds - I can only think of one example; the Clairon Doublette on the G.O. of the Cavaillé-Coll instrument in S. Sernin, Toulouse.
#67
Organ registration / Re: 32ft on a manual
November 09, 2013, 02:14:59 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on October 20, 2013, 06:58:05 AM
I don't think there is.  I'm quite surprised that, among very large instruments, there aren't more manual 32' reeds compared to flues.  I should imagine that a manual 32' reed could be useful more often than a flue, even, for example, under a big principal chorus.

I should have thought that the opposite were true, David.

I found the short-compass 32ft. on the Primary G.O. at Norwich Cathedral quite useful, to underpin a sort-of grand Plein Jeu. However, a 32ft. reed, unless it was of very quiet fagotto tonality, would probably sound 'grunty' (it this is even a word). And, if it was that quiet, surely a well-voiced flue (such as a quiet mild string) would do the job equally well.
#68
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: The End of the Internet
July 20, 2013, 02:05:21 PM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on July 17, 2013, 09:40:56 AM
... Chichester ... and a very nice job our hosts here have made of the rebuild. ...

Um.... that would be the other discussion board - hosted by John Mander, Tony....
#69
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: The End of the Internet
July 20, 2013, 02:00:57 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on July 17, 2013, 11:46:45 PM
Yes, I liked Arundel when I played it a few years before the last (David Wells?) rebuild.  I've never heard Chichester, although I played the Allen.....

You have my sympathy.... (regarding the toaster).

I have been fortunate to play the restored pipe organ at Chichester Cathedral on several occasions; as Tony has observed, this instrument has strayed somewhat from its Hill roots. However, I regard it as one of the most beautiful and musical of our cathedral organs. And, whilst I rejoice that this organ now possesses a Swell to Choir, I do wish that the G.O. had been designed to include a second quiet 8ft. flute (perhaps a Hohl Flute) and a Cone Gamba. I cannot think of any Hill G.O. which originally included a 2ft. Flute and a separate Tierce. In any case, there is a perfectly serviceable Cornet on the Solo Organ.
#70
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: The End of the Internet
July 20, 2013, 01:34:54 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on July 18, 2013, 04:26:52 PM
Arundel had been pepped up in a neo-baroquish direction.  Like so many such treatments, this was later felt to be incongruous and David Wells' work seems to have restored and amplified along more appropriate lines.

"Anyway, any well built and designed organ has its advantages - and it's part of the skill of the organist to find & exploit the instrument's strengths."

Absolutely!  If only people would take the trouble to understand the character of each instrument and register acordingly.

Indeed - I agree entirely.

Although I have not played the organ of Arundel Cathedral, I prefer greatly the stop-list after David Wells' restoration work.
#71
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: The End of the Internet
July 20, 2013, 01:33:25 PM
Quote from: mf2701 on July 14, 2013, 10:19:29 AM
Why should something outrageous be, of necessity, entirely fallacious? It is hard to think of a fictitious outrage that has not been based on fact, analogous or otherwise .

It need not - but my post did exactly what I wanted - it engendered a response from another board reader.

Quote from: mf2701 on July 14, 2013, 10:19:29 AM
But have there been any universal outrages; any act that outraged every single person who was properly informed about it? I think not because the perpetrator, one or many, was likely not outraged by his own actions at the time. Most likely he was outraged by some previous event. Or perhaps he was out of his mind. Can a mad man commit an outrage?

Dragging this down to our own level, the destruction of the organ in the Great George Street Chapel, Liverpool was an outrage to those who care about these things. But was it a good organ? I never heard or saw it, but I have seen Hill organs of the period. None were satisfying. Hill had many more mistakes to make before York Minster was put right (by the standards of the time) and Birmingham Town Hall was not ever right in his lifetime. The restoration of the organ at St Mary at Hill in the City is, I believe, contentious. Was it restored simply because it was old and bore the name Hill or because it was a fine art piece that satisfies most who hear and play it?

Yes, I am calling for a Public Inquiry into the work of William Hill (1789-1870).

MF

It is true that Hill made many mistakes - Mendelssohn himself criticised the almost impossibly heavy key action at Birmingham Town Hall (as first constructed).

However, This was a period of fertile imagination and great experimentation in organ building. Hill did make improvements and innovations. It could be said that, whilst FHW made mechanical innovations throughout his life, tonally he actually went backwards (compare the instrument in Saint Michael's College, Tenbury - as it was - with Lincoln Cathedral, with its paucity of upper-work). There are several other organs built by FHW which can be used to make similar comparisons. Whilst this may be considered off-topic, my point is that there was probably no British organ builder who got everything right - particularly not at this time (the organ in Great George Street Congregational Church was built in 1841). Again, compare this Hill instrument with the almost contemporary organ in Gloucester Cathedral (FHW, 1847): http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N07429. Given that Gloucester Cathedral is considerably larger than the former chapel in George Street, Liverpool. the Liverpool instrument is almost double the size of that at Gloucester. In addition, the Liverpool organ possessed a Tuba Mirabilis, which was winded separately from the rest of the Choir Organ. Furthermore, the Gloucester organ had only 'Pedal pipes' (probably twenty-nine of them, although the existing stop-lists are not clear - all except the lowest twelve note could have been supplied by couplers only). However, the Liverpool organ possessed three independent Pedal ranks (from 16ft. C), which included a full-length reed.

As David Drinkell observes, no-one now living remembers the Liverpool organ (or, for that matter) the first Willis instrument in Gloucester Cathedral). However, even with a heavy action, I should still prefer the Hill organ.

#72
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: The End of the Internet
July 14, 2013, 01:22:47 AM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on July 09, 2013, 10:23:27 AM
Hi

Some light relief - especially since the board has been rather slow lately.

http://hmpg.net/

Every Blessing

Tony

However, this may turn out to be counter-productive, if we desire a little more action on this board - people may simply do exactly what the link suggests....

Perhaps someone should come up with something outrageous (and therefore, of necessity, entirely fallacious), in order to generate some lively debate.
#73
House Organs / Re: NPOR
July 03, 2013, 11:22:31 AM
Quote from: diapason on July 02, 2013, 09:24:23 AM
Sadly, am still waiting, after 8 months for this to appear.  Re-reading Tony's post, I might have a bit longer to wait yet.  Hopefully, the backlog will soon be cleared.  Can we help?

Indeed - I am still waiting for my offer of help to be acknowledged. Unfortunately I cannot find my original e-mail, so I cannot re-send.

However, I would be very willing to help with the uploading and amending of NPOR records. Tony, if you read this, perhaps you could kick things in motion, please?
#74
Organs on eBay or for urgent sale / Re: Magnificent 1932 Walker organ urgently needs a new home
June 10, 2013, 06:13:24 PM
Quote from: At the Sign of the Pipe on May 17, 2013, 09:53:10 AM
The magnificent 1932 Walker (IIP 26ss) organ in the Great Hall of Wyggeston and Queen Elizabeth 1 sixth form college in Leicester is under imminent threat of destruction. Work will begin on 24 June to convert the Great Hall into a library, classrooms and study areas at which point the organ will have to be removed.

Despite being an imposing and largely unaltered building from 1932 the Great Hall is not listed and the organ itself has no statutory protection. Despite several professional organbuilders having seen the organ over the past few months, apparently no-one thought to advise the school to list the organ on the IBO redundant organs site. I became aware of the situation only a week ago when I was contacted by the Leicester Diocesan DOA, Simon Headley. Simon has no jurisdiction over the organ but is one of several cathedral organists who practised on the organ when they were students at the College. I also included the organ in my little 2010 book Historic Organs of Leicestershire, as I regard it as one of the best examples of an organ in a school in the state sector.

Details of the organ can be found on NPOR here (http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D07877)

The organ is in exceptionally good condition having been maintained by Walkers until quite recently. It has the original 1932 electric action with its attendant cotton-covered wiring which would need replacing, naturally. The oak case front is imposing and visually raises this organ above the usual dreary rows of zinc drainpipes that one so often finds in organs of this era. The organ was donated to the college by Sir Jonathon North, chair of the College Corporation and Leicester Education Committee.
All the stops are full compass with the only extension/borrowing being the swell fagotto/oboe being used on the pedal, great contrasalicional being used on the pedal and pedal open wood 16 also providing the octave 8.

Although the organ has not been tuned for about four years, a quick tune of the swell reeds revealed a magnificent sound that filled the fine acoustic of the Great Hall.

The college is keen to find a home for the organ as a going concern and it would be the greatest tragedy if the organ were to be dismantled only for parts or that it went into storage for an indeterminate time.

I do have photos and some sound files. If someone can tell me how to load these I will be happy to do so.

David Shuker
At the Sign of the Pipe
Birling, Kent

This organ has already been featured on another thread. David (P) - perhaps we can amalgamate the two. There seems no reason for them to remain disparate.
#75
Organs in danger / The Organ in the Great Hall at Wyggeston & Queen Elizabeth I College: endangered
May 22, 2013, 10:16:24 PM
A colleague has alerted me to the fact that the organ in the Great Hall at Wyggeston & Queen Elizabeth I College - formerly Wyggeston Boys' School (Leicester) is in urgent need of a new home. It is a two manual Walker organ dating from 1932 The NPOR link is here: http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D07877

The balcony on which it stands is to be re-developed and the organ will be disposed of, if no offer of removal to a new home is forthcoming. If anyone knows of a church (or school, etc) requiring an instrument of this size and design, please contact me by PM, and I can put you in touch with someone who used to play it and who has drawn this to my attention.

Thank you.
#76
Organs on eBay or for urgent sale / Re: Five manuals?
April 29, 2013, 04:21:06 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on April 28, 2013, 02:39:38 AM
Here's some stuff about the Calne organs, including quotes from the article in The Organ.  It would seem to prove that the Solo Organ at Castle House was indeed there, but out of action.

http://cdmnet.org/Julian/schemes/trz/calne.htm

Incidentally, the third Calne organ - only a mere three manual! - has been in Tolleshunt D'Arcy Church, Essex, for many years, where it was installed by (of all people) R.H. Walker.  As far as the ratio between size of church and amount of organ goes, it far exceeds the Calne Conacher in generosity!

Reading through the comments (and even allowing for changes in taste regarding organ tone), I find the descriptions difficult to reconcile with the intrument which I have played on several occasions. In particular, the comment regarding the G.O. diapason chorus is, I suppose, coloured by the expectations of the period, when mixture work was generally in decline. However, I found the chorus to be neither magnificent nor 'a full flood of tone' - just dull and slightly tubby.

The comments regarding the Swell upper-work are even stranger. Caple wrote:  'The sharp mixture (as its name implies) is bold and brilliant, of high pitch and acute tone.' In fact it is anything but. As far as I can recall, it commences at 15-19-22 - so it is not a 'Sharp Mixture', by any definition; even the famous 'Clarion Mixture' stops of Walker began at 22-26-29 and, at that time, it is conceivable that these were regarded (at least by Gilbert Benham) as being of 'very high pitch' - a comment which was refuted by Cecil Clutton. In reality, the Swell so-called Sharp Mixture at Calne adds almost nothing to the chorus at all. Even without the reeds, it was difficult to tell whether it was drawn or not. (And no, I do not think that there is anything wrong with my hearing - others have said the same.)
#77
Organs on eBay or for urgent sale / Re: Five manuals?
April 27, 2013, 08:26:05 AM
Quote from: David Drinkell on April 26, 2013, 07:29:51 PM

... I've just looked up Manchester Cathedral in Thornsby's 'Dictionary of Organs and Organists' (1st edition 1912); rebuilt Hill 1910.  5 manuals, 66 speaking stops, 20 other stops.  I think that Norman Cocker, in his article following the pre-World War II Harrison rebuild (one of the best and most affectionate pieces of writing in 'The Organ'), mentioned that it was very tiring playing the Screen Great Organ on the fifth manual, especially as the only manual to which it could be coupled was the Great. ...


This is interesting, David. So another five-clavier organ was reduced to four.

I am not sure that I understand Norman Cocker's complaint. Surely the main purpose of the Screen G.O. was to support the singing of large congregations; therefore, I should have thought that it would have been be likely only to have played this division from the G.O. clavier - and coupled to a significant amount of the rest of the organ.

I know that Cocker was also a cinema organist, but I must admit that I regard the scheme that the organ had attained, prior to its destruction in WWII, was far superior to the weird stop-list which currently obtains - even though (on his appointment to succeed the late Norman Cocker) Allan Wicks had been able to secure some modifications to the scheme.
#78
Organs on eBay or for urgent sale / Re: Five manuals?
April 23, 2013, 09:31:24 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on April 23, 2013, 08:07:25 PM
When I saw 'Five Manuals' under the heading of 'Organs on eBay or for urgent sale', my first thought was that pcnd had put the organ of Calne PC up for sale without telling anyone.... :)

Ha! Now that is an interesting idea.... Perhaps I could hold it to ransom.
#79
Organs on eBay or for urgent sale / Re: Five manuals?
April 23, 2013, 07:31:44 PM
Quote from: David Drinkell on April 23, 2013, 02:47:46 PM
I think Manchester Cathedral organ might have had five manuals at this time.

I am not sure about this - I shall check later. If it did, it can only have been between 1910, when Hill & Son rebuilt it, and 1918, when H&H carried out further work. It seems unlikely that it would be rebuilt with a fifth clavier, which was then removed only eight years earlier; even that at Birmingham Town Hall lasted for twenty-three years.

Quote from: David Drinkell on April 23, 2013, 02:47:46 PM
Did Hexham actually have five, or were the Echo and Solo Organs both played from the fourth manual?

As far as I know - yes. I do not have an index to The Organ, so I am not sure in which back-issue the article appears, but  I recall this too stating that the organ had five claviers at this time (i.e., in addition to the NPOR).

Quote from: David Drinkell on April 23, 2013, 02:47:46 PM
... PCND and I have crossed swords over Calne PC before, on the Mander board.  I've played it, and I liked it.  Regarding the Castle House five-manual, I think NPOR is wrong in stating that the Solo Organ was prepared-for only.  When both the big Calne jobs were written up in the 'The Organ', it was stated that the Castle House Solo Organ was out of action due to rain damage, but the writer specifically mentioned the Stentorphone, its construction, and the difficulty of getting a sound out of the bigger pipes by blowing down them - so it must have been there!  This and some other Solo stops were by Weigle of Stuttgart - he added similar registers to the Gabler organ at Weingarten. ...

I realise that everyone has their own ideas of how organs should sound - but in this case, I cannot imagine what you liked about it, David. A colleague who also played it thought that it was 'horrible - with no redeeming features whatsoever'. In addition, others who have also played it for the director of music of a local school (who is also an organist) also found it to be unpleasant and difficult to handle.

However - it is of course your prerogative....  I am also mindful of the fact that a number of contributors to the Mander board have an intense dislike for my 'own' church organ - which I regard as superb.
#80
Organs on eBay or for urgent sale / Re: Five manuals?
April 23, 2013, 12:55:08 PM
Quote from: Robin Stalker on April 23, 2013, 09:47:09 AM
Liverpool 2x 5 manual consoles

The partially completed circa 1940's scheme at Tewkesbury - now gone

Since it was not constructed until 1926, the organ of Liverpool Anglican Cathedral is outside the scope of the survey (1913).
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