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Hi David,
It would appear that several decades before the birth of Mozart, most examples of the well-tempered system were based upon 1/6th comma meantone to a more or lesser extent. This is also true in the case of Beethoven. It wasn't really until the 1840's that equal temperament began to find great favour within the musical fraternity, mainly because of performers and composers such as Franz Liszt began to push the musical boundaries much further by modulating into ever more remote keys which proved too much for the tuning systems of the time. So much so that eventually something had to give, and that of course Was the gradual adoption of equal temperament until it became virtually universal, at the expense of individual nuances between the various key signatures and "key flavour" resulting in a more dull and lifeless sound, given that every note is now out of tune to its neighbour by 1.1/2th of a degree.

Although well-tempered systems had started in the early 18th century, some organ builders, brought up with the less flexible meantone systems still tefused to have anything to do with these "modern usurpers". The irascible master Gottfried Silbermann for example would have absolutely nothing to do them and positively refused to tune his instruments any other way than in 1/6th comma meantone, even when requested to do so by his very good friend Bach, and it is on record that they quarelled frequently over the matter, with Bach being quoted after shugging his shoulders this particular day and saying: "Well, you may tune it just as you like, but I will play it just as I like!" - and with that he started to improvise a prelude and fugue in A-flat Major, thus causing Silbermann to run quickly out of the church, holding his ears against his own 'Wolf".

I have never employed Vallotti temperament myself, although had I built an organ of any significant size in England I would have probably considered doing so as I know that at one time it was very popular in the country. Like you, I prefer well-tempered systems with a stronger key flavour, so therefore I have used both Kellner and Kirnberger I - III (both one time students of Bach) quite often. Others, including the early temperaments of Werckmeister, himself an organist, Sorge (1760 - ideal for music from the classical period, like Mozart) and of course Neidhardt I (1724), your "Village" example, which is stronger than his later temperaments, although it does seem to favour the sharp keys somewhat. Two others that I of course often employ were devised by myself: Van Deurne I and Van Deurne (Bach) II. Unfortunately, I don't have the tuning tables at hand  for these at the moment but I will post them sometime after I discover where they are (Im thinking my eldest daughter Karina has "borrowed" them as usual but I cannot think why. She's never tuned an organ herself ever, she always relies on me to do it for her!)

To end, I'll quote the tonal specification of our company's own organ mentioned before, at the Liebfrauenkirche in Lindau. I wouldn't normally do so because the flaunting of one's own work to me feels like posturing. Please note that this church is not the principal  "Notre Dame" Cathedral in the city centre (that church contains an organ by Steinmeyer), but is much further out in the suburbs, therefore not on the island itself.


Gedackt 16
Principal 8
Rohrflöte 8
Quintaden 8
Octave 4
Spitzflöte 4
Rohrquinte 2.2/3
Superoctave 2
Waldflöte 2
Tertia 1.3/5
Spitzquinte 1.1/3
Sifflöt 1
Scharff 4-5 fach
Dulzian 16
Trichterregal 8


Principal 16
Principal 8
Bifaria II 8 (c)
Viola da Gamba 8
Doppelgedackt 8
Octave 4
Traversflöte 4
Tertia 3.1/5
Quinte 2.2/3
Superoctave 2
Flachflöte 2
Cornet 5 fach  (g - hochgefürt)
Mixtur 6 fach
Cimbel 3 fach
Trompete 16
Trompete 8
Saboiana 8

III. Rècit expressif

Contraviole 16
Diapason 8
Salicional 8
Voix colestis 8 (c)
Flûte harmonique 8
Nasard 2.2/3
Doublette 2
Echocornet 3 fach (g) 
Fourniture 6 fach
Acuta 3 fach
Basson 16
Trompette 8
Hautbois 8
Clarion 4
Voix humaine 8


Untersatz 32
Principal 16
Violonbass 16
Subbass 16
Octavbass 8
Violoncello 8
Superoctave 4
Dolkan 4
Nachthorn 2
Mixtur 6 fach
Contrafagott 32
Posaune 16
Trompete 8
Altotrompete 4
Singend Cornet 2


III/16  III/4  III/-8


Tremblant fortè (whole organ)
Tremblant doux (Chorwerk)
Schwebung  (Rècit expressif)
Philomena (birdsong)
Tastenretierung (Hauptwerk - locks the keys down to enable large chords to be built up).

Compass: C - g' - a''' (32 - 58 notes)

64 Register           4,720 Pipes

With best wishes,

This is really interesting and very helpful indeed. I think there's a lot of pointers to 6th Comma Meantone being in common use and used by Mozart. I've been experimenting with 1/4 comma really as a form of X-Ray to the music revealing starkly to less sensitive ears where really interesting things are going on.

How does 6th Comma Meantone compare in effect on the keys for instance with Vallotti dividing errors among 6 fifths? I have a preference for Kellner or Kirnberger III compared to Vallotti simply because I like the stronger flavour of curry and nearer to the 5th Comma meantone variation.

Are you using the Neidhardt "Village" temperament or the weaker ones?

Best wishes

David P
As far as Europe was concerned, the employment of basic meantone temperaments had long ceased by the time that Mozart had started to compose. By the 1770s, modified versions of either 5th or 6th comma meantone systems were all in favour,  hence the creation of Bach's 48 preludes and fugues. As for Charles Burney, I really couldn't speculate, given his strange ideas on his contemporary musicians, but it's perfectly feasible that he may still have been cemented to the even then archaic tuning system.

The only firm evidence that I can provide from this period is of course for organs. Mozart we know was very fond of them, and it was he who first coined the phrase as the organ being "The King of Instruments" after visiting the Christiaan Müller organ at Sint Bavo in Haarlem in 1767 when he was 11 years old. From its inseption this organ was well-tempered, to a modified form of 1/6th comma meantone. Händel also visited this organ around a decade earlier and was also suitibly impressed. However, Charles Burney, when writing in his 'Diary of a Musical Journey' in the mid 1770s stated that after visiting Sint Bavo, he found that the organ "be crammed full of noisy stops, all out of tune". This is one reason why that we all need to take his opinions with a pinch of salt.

On the face of it, I cannot think of any reference to Beethoven playing the organ with any regularity, although it is known that he did so occasionally. At any rate, his Graaf piano, which he would one day saw the legs off, would also have been well-tempered.

During my own life as both an organ builder and player, whenever I would build a new organ, I would always set the tuning as being well-tempered as standard, unless otherwise instructed by the client (and I have to say that in this I wasn't always successful), for to my musical ear the organ sounds far better, more integrated when tuned unequally. The Mixtures and Cimbels also calm down and fail to scream, even in a really dry acoustic. A few weeks ago I gave an organ concert of music by Widor :excerpts from his organ symphonies culminating in the 5th Symphony in its entirity. This was performed on one of my own organs at the Liebfrauenkirche in Lindau, III/64. This organ is tuned to the well-tempered  system devised by Neidhardt in 1724 but believe me, the music of Widor sounds just wonderful when played on an instrument tuned in this manner!
Organ courses / Organ Scholarship
« Last post by croci on January 10, 2019, 03:07:09 PM »
Following the statutory aims that provide promotion of the Historical Organs Heritage in the Fribourg region and the encouragement of young people in organ studies, the Fondation Académie d’Orgue de Fribourg is offering a scholarship for organ studies at Fribourg University of Music (HEMU - Site de Fribourg - for the Academic Year 2019/20.

Application procedure:

Please complete the enclosed application form which should be sent with your CV and a covering letter, copy of academic degrees, copy of ID and three letters of recommendation to Académie d’Orgue de Fribourg, Rue des Alpes 7, CH 1700 Fribourg, Switzerland or by mail to:
Please apply for admission at HEMU - Site de Fribourg: -
Closing date for applications is Thursday 1st March 2019.
Condition for eligibility is to have been admitted at the HEMU-Site de Fribourg (Fribourg University of Music - for the academic year 2019/20 in one of the following degrees:
Bachelor, Master, Certificate of Advanced Studies (CAS).

For further information please contact:

Scholarship Amount: 5000 CHF/year. The successful candidate will also be invited to play a concert in the Fribourg International Organ Festival.
Organs on eBay or for urgent sale / Aeolian Orchestrelles for sale
« Last post by revtonynewnham on January 04, 2019, 06:56:45 AM »

In my role as the council member of the Reed Organ Society I sometimes get asked to circulate info on reed organs that are available.  Below is a list of Player Reed Organs - all from the Orchestrelle range built by the Aeolian company that are for sale via one of my contacts on behalf of various people.  Please contact direct if you're interested. His e-mail address is - please contact him direct if
interested in any of these player organs.

Aeolian Orchestrelles - can supply photos

These all play automatically from paper music rolls as well as from the keyboard.

131.  Model "Colonial" suction - Sussex  64 1/2" high x 72" wide x 27" deep    £1,750 + plenty of rolls
                Was working 5 yrs ago when I last played it, all mechanics & pneumatics original

133.  Model “W” complete, not working, located Cambridgeshire £400  [same location 141]

138.  Model "Y" - complete mechanism, no case [kept by owner for his own caseless machine]
                        please ask for price. Located Notts    c.8 feet tall

139.  Model “F” two-manual c.8ft tall, all valves & pouches renewed c.2014 by previous owners but one.
        Including rolls, working perfectly  - located Sussex   c.8.ft 4 inches tall    £7,450.00

140.  Francis the First Model [a “W” in a very ornate case] restored by current owner
        Located Cumbria England – £2,995 with 30 rolls [more available by negotiation]

141.    Model XW a 116-note model. Very unusual ornate case.
        Not working now, but was 10 years ago. with 5/6 rolls only,
        but KM can supply more. Located Cambridgeshire  £675  [same location 133]

Some of these instruments cost over £1,000 when new in 1900 - 1905.

Every Blessing

Questions of Temperament / Meantone and the Mysterious. How long did it last?
« Last post by David Pinnegar on December 29, 2018, 01:30:25 PM »
I was inspired by Percy Scholes' question "How could the Bach 48 have been played on Dr Burney's piano?". In the late 18th century pianos in England were tuned to Meantone. How long did this endure? My researches into Mozart suggested that Meantone was important to interpretation of Mozart's music.

What about Beethoven? A friend visited and kindly recorded The Tempest . In my view it adds to the magical atmosphere alluded to in the presumed association with Shakespeare's play.

Best wishes

David P
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Happy Christmas
« Last post by David Pinnegar on December 27, 2018, 08:23:51 PM »
Hoping all are enjoying the festive season and the rest after this busy period.

Something to tweak ears . . . .

May the coming year bring much good spice . . .

Best wishes

David P
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Happy Christmas
« Last post by diapason on December 26, 2018, 09:31:25 AM »
Merry Christmass to all
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Happy Christmas
« Last post by Gwas_Bach on December 25, 2018, 03:02:03 PM »
Nadolig Llawen! :)
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Happy Christmas
« Last post by revtonynewnham on December 25, 2018, 07:42:53 AM »
Wishing all board member a happy & blessed Christmas
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