Organ matters - Organs matter!

Hi

Keep a look out in charity shops and secondhand bookshops - and hope that they don't charge exhorbitant prices!  I don't have either of those titles, but I do have the 2nd of his books on Forster & Andrews (bought cheaply in a secondhand bookshop IIRC) and the 3 more recent tiles - one a gift from the widow of a friend, and the other 2 bought from Elvin's widow when she was obviously clearing stocks, and the prices were reasonable - in fact, I saw one in a s/h bookshop at around that time priced at double what I had paid!

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Good news indeed.  Maybe you could point him in the direction of the Reed Organ Society?

every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Now you mention it, I've heard of this effect.  I guess it is behind the observed phenomenon.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Water-blown organs were pretty common in the later Victorian period and into the 20th century.  A number of churches around here had them - including the previous building here.  The problems are two fold, firstly the unreliability of the supply pressure, especially as populations have grown; and secondly, it's hardly "green" to use (relatively) expensive drinking-quality water as a power source!

One organ at least (Bolton Abbey) draw the water supply from the nearby river Warfe - that seems a "greener" possibility where there's a reliable river or stream close by.  Very few water blowers are still in use - electricity is now widely available  :D.

Laurence Elvin's book on the history of organ blowing makes interesting reading (sadly, I don't have a copy - I read it many years ago, borrowed from a library).

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

The Conn "pipe" speakers, along with Allen's gyroscopic system, Compton's "Rotofons" and even Leslie speakers were all designed to introduce a bit of life to the analogue electronic organs of the day - and don't forget that single speaker installations were the norm at that time.  I don't know about the Conn's as I can't recall ever hearing a set live, only on recordings.  The other moving speakers worked tolerably well by the standards of the time - but they were not being fed with the sounds of sampled pipes (although it might be an interesting exercise to try a dry sample set through a pair of Rotophons in a large room.

To my ears, the biggest problem is that, whilst OK in adding a sense of space and life to full organ sounds, they don't really work with single notes.  Of course, the Leslie on high speed has become an effect in its own right, especially for Hammond organs (and other instruments in the light music/pop arena).

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Yes - very nice speakers.  Designed for large spaces, where distance and room acoustics will tend to take the edge off the horn's characteristic harshness (not that these are particularly harsh).  I'd like to get hold of a pair for when I take my keyboard rig out - and for the occasional open-air event - but then, where would I store them?

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Interesting.  the pitch change is noticeable.  I wonder if there's an air current in the building causing some sort of doppler-type effect - or maybe the sound at the microphones is modified by something moving close by?  Or perhaps it's a phase anomaly caused by multiple reverb path lengths?

Is it audible listening to the organ live?

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

I guess the chimes are some sort of reed arrangement, struck by a hammer, with a suitable pickup working on the same principle as a capacitor microphone (or the late lamented Wurlitzer electrostatic organs).

Many Compton Theatre organs derive the chimes from the Melotone unit - again electrostatic in operation, but akin to the later Hammond electro-magnetic system in layout and capable of producing sustained sounds as well.  The chimes decay being produced by a keying circuit.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Excommunication should be very much a last resort - after all, the Gospel Message is one of forgiveness for sins that are confessed (to God) and acceptance, not of "your out unless you toe the party line!"  Although I would not want to put Islam on the same footing as Christianity.  The unique thing about the Christian faith is that it's a personal faith and a relationship with God, not just a system of rules and regulations.  You cannot be born a Christian - belief and faith are necessary.

There is one incident in the Bible that I can think of where Paul tells the church to have no more to do with a couple of people - but even that is for a limited (albeit indeterminate) time.  Until death intervenes, there is always a way back to faith in God and inclusion in the family of the church - or at least there should be!

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Agreed.  If I want to just sit and play for enjoyment (as opposed to practicing for something specific) I tend to use my Harmonium in preference to the various electronic options that I have available, which really don't satisfy in terms of sound quality.  It's a pity that I've had to abandon my pipe organ rebuild FTTB.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Pity that there wasn't also a comparison with the pipe organ!

I did suggest something like this for our Association's programme next year, but there was little inhterest.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

For those interested in either (or both) forms of the organ, a visit to the Scarborough Fair Collection is a must.  The collection consists of a number of fairground and dance organs, plus 2 8 rank Wurlitzers (with another larger one under construction), plus a number of interesting exhibits.  Take a look at http://www.scarboroughfaircollection.com/

Stop lists for the Wurlitzers, and brief details of some of the mechanical organs are on NPOR.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

I'm not at all surprised about the bass problems - organ music is almost unique in requiring a substantial amount of continuous power in the extreme bass (down to 16Hz for a 32ft rank).  32ft Flue pipes are among the most difficult to produce electronically - 32ft reeds are easier as a substantial amount of the output is in the harmonics, which are not only easier to produce from a speaker, but also have the psycho-acoustic advantage of regenerating the fundamental pitch (c.f. Compton's "Harmonics of 32ft" stops that serve as a substitute for 32ft reeds).

Most proper studio monitor speakers are either 3 way, or attempt to shift the crossover away from the critical 2-3.5kHz region.  The acid test of a monitor speaker is reproduction of human speech (male & female) - a far more difficult task at mid-range frequencies than any musical genre - but in the semi-pro/hi-fi arena I only know of one reviewer who regularly auditions speakers on speech (Hugh Robjohns in "Sound on Sound" - a BBC trained recording engineer). 

Unfortunately, crossovers are a fact of life in most loudspeaker designs, especially if a large frequency range has to be covered - the art is designing the system so that the inevitable artifacts (phase distortions, comb filtering, etc) are minimized for the particular application (even using a single speaker plus sub-woofer needs a crossover).  I suspect that one of the problems with producing organ sound is that some part of the harmonic series will "spill over" into the tweeter and start to sound artificial - especially given the fact that most general purpose hi-fi and Sound Reinforcement speakers put the crossover smack bang in the middle of the speech band's harmonics (say 1kHz-3kHz) - just where the ear is most sensitive.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Yes, an interesting instrument, but pretty limited in scope though for much after Bach (27 note pedals & 4 octave manuals - see the stop list either on the University web site or NPOR).

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Very nice sounds - look forward to hearing more.  One comment though, you need to be careful trimming the ends of the recordings - the hymn tune particularly cuts into the last note, and the Bach is also a little on the "tight" side.  A little bit of room ambiance on the end is no bad thing - especially to make sure that you don't cut the ambiance off (I know that there's not much in such a small room).

Look forward to hearing more - and maybe a visit before too long.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Thinking more during the day about vintage free-phase electronic organs, I realized that another factor in the good sound is that the oscillators are not (normally) running continuously, but are triggered for each tone required - and frequently there's a time-constant attached to the speed of build up in volume (the tuned circuits used mean that frequency is, to a large degree, independent of supply voltage, so the keying circuit is pretty simple, as it needs to be given the number of iterations of it in even a fairly small organ.  This, of course, adds a further degree of realism as opposed to the instant "on" and "off" that was common in divider organs of the era, electronic switching being a costly option, and difficult to arrange so the the attenuation in the "off" position was low enough.

As to the picture that David posted of organ pipes is very sad - I suppose we should be glad that they're not hiding the speakers of the electronic replacement.  That's a practice that, in my opinion, is indefensible, and little short of fraudulent.  And even worse when speakers a placed inside old organ cases - sometimes with the installers damaging or destroying good pipework in the process - or where the case is retained simply to house speaker cabinets.  It's time the organ world got real about these dubious practices and organ advisers should ban them.  (I'm not too happy about the fake "pipe tops" that were part of the case wrok of many reed organs - that's equally false.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi Neil

I realise your methodology.  It's probably a good compromise given that the resulting demo is transmitted electronically, and the differences - even on speakers - is interesting (I'm also well aware that headphones will be even more revealing of detail differences - I just didn't have time to try the demo on phones this morning)

The fact remains though that real acoustics have different effects even to very well simulated ones - especially in the small fluctuations and randomness that computers tend to ignore as "too small to be relevant", but which often aren't!  I'd like to hear the demo "live" and with 4 independent sound sources as well as just one.

Keep up the good work!

every Blessing

Tony

Hi

No - just as the data that is contained in a computer memory/hard drive is often of more value than the machine itself (and the machine is useless without an operating system and application programmes), so the human being is more than just the amalgam of chemicals and water that chemically constitute the body.  The key "ingredient" being that intangible soul, which I think is God-given, and imparted at the moment of conception, plus the ever-growing contents of our brains - which unlike computer data, isn't to easy to transfer en mass to another storage medium.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

The analogue Allen organs used at least 2 ranks of free-phase generators on each manual (flutes and diapason/string)  There are some details in the late Alan Douglas' book "The Electronic Musical Instrument Manual".  The analogue organs sounded vastly better than the early digital Allens.

As the note on the clip says, the big problem is the age of the electronics - and the sheer scale of the things, making ongoing maintenance an issue.  (I used to own a 2m Jennings electronic organ which used valve generators - that really needed a complete rebuild with new capacitors to try and get some tuning stability, and the prevent the keying thumps caused by failed coupling capacitors allowing 300v DC into the keying and tone forming circuits.  I had to dispose of it as a small house + 4 children = lack of space!)

Many of these analogue organs are worth preserving for their unique qualities - and as examples of the technology of the era.

Every Blessing

Tony

Hi

Neil's demo is interesting - but inconclusive.  I'm listening on a pair of now rather old AKG mini "monitors" (AKG's take on the once ubiquitous Auratones - but they sound slightly better) - hooking this computer up to decent speakers is too convoluted at present.  I found little difference in the sound of the "piece" - although neither rendition seemed to have the "presence" of the real thing.  The held chord produced slightly different results, noticeable in the beats between notes, between the 2 versions, but without repeated listening it's difficult to say which is "better".

However, this listening test is compromised by the speakers here, and the fact that we're listening to recordings, not the actual sound in the room of the various ranks reproduced by separate speakers.  Sadly, no practical internet demo can adequately demonstrate those effects, nor the full effect of room acoustics (although a 3-D Ambiosonic recording/reproduction would come pretty close).

From the various electronic organs that I've heard and played over the years, multiple speakers pretty much always sound better in the room than singles or a pair.

Crossover effects within speakers are another issue that needs addressing - I suspect that a line-level crossover and separate amps for each frequency range will perform better than a speaker-level crossover.  (I'm planning to take that route when I eventually get my "My Organ"/Miditzer amplification system up and running (at present, it's hooked through an external soundcard to the speakers in a digital piano - far from ideal!)

Every Blessing

Tony