Organ matters - Organs matter!

Miscellaneous & Suggestions => Miscellaneous & Suggestions => Topic started by: David Pinnegar on April 18, 2015, 06:23:06 PM

Title: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: David Pinnegar on April 18, 2015, 06:23:06 PM
Time and time again I see cliques in groups on facebook throwing their wisdom into the etheric morass of social media.

Not indexed by search engines, what enthusiasm can facebook spread?

Is there a problem using forum sites like this on mobile devices? Or is the forum dead?

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: JBR on April 18, 2015, 10:55:44 PM
I see discussion fora like this and Facebook as two distinctly different things.

I visit this forum every day on my computer; I visit Facebook most days on my mobile phone, and each for quite different reasons.  In my opinion, the internet forum is far from dead.  Perhaps this and other organ fora are relatively quiet, but that reflects the fact that the organ is a minority interest.  However, other fora I visit are far more lively yet some are equally specialist.

I must admit that it has never occurred to me to visit this site on my mobile phone.
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook ZELUR KO . . .
Post by: dragonser on April 19, 2015, 02:27:47 PM
Hi,
 well I think as the two previous posters have said, there is a lot of difference between forums like this one and facebook. I tend to access web pages from my desktop computer, so I can't comment on how this site would work on a mobile phone.
I guess that for some people, the novelty of the internet may be wearing off !
regards Peter B
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Janner on April 20, 2015, 08:15:27 AM
I often carry a mobile 'phone but it is a very basic device and switched on only on the rare occasions when I have to make a particularly pressing call.

I often wonder about those who seem to spend half their lives peering at the screens of their mobile devices, or have them welded to their ears, and are completely oblivious to their surroundings.

Facebook? Personally I have nothing to do with it at all.

I read this, and another organ forum, almost daily, but on a large screen and from the comfort of a decent chair in a quiet environment, where I can devote some worthwhile concentration to the topics of interest.

Best wishes,

J.
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: JBR on April 20, 2015, 10:44:48 PM
I often wonder about those who seem to spend half their lives peering at the screens of their mobile devices, or have them welded to their ears, and are completely oblivious to their surroundings.

Yes, it makes me laugh to see them walking down the street with their phone to their ear.  Some do this for a considerable length of time and seem to prattle on about nothing (not that I've been earwigging, of course), so I presume they are not short of money!

Needless to say, that is something I never do.  If I really need to speak to someone about something important, I make a quick call and have done with it.
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Nicolette on April 21, 2015, 08:34:57 AM
Facebook? Personally I have nothing to do with it at all.J.
Oh good - a kindred spirit!
This forum covers so many areas of our specialist interest, while Facebook seems to look at anything and everything, right down to inane things like telling "friends" that you're drinking your fourth cup of coffee of the day..........Long may Organmatters survive!!
Nicolette
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: David Pinnegar on May 31, 2015, 02:23:08 PM
With no posts for over a week I'm just wondering if the organ and its music is a lost cause?

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Nicolette on May 31, 2015, 08:11:50 PM
I don't think so.
N.
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Gwas_Bach on May 31, 2015, 08:47:23 PM
For my part, I have been snowed under with work.  I enjoy reading what others have to say, since I don't know a great deal about organs, but am keen to learn.  This year I have started taking formal lessons on the organ, having taught myself little bits and bobs.  I don't get the chance to travel much and see organs in other parts of the country, so hearing about them is interesting for me.
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: pcnd5584 on June 01, 2015, 06:09:00 PM
I have tried starting new threads - but received no replies to either of my postings. This could of course be that the thread did not interest anyone.

Considering some of the nonsense and guesswork which is promulgated on Facebook, I am surprised that people bother with it. Whilst I have added a few thoughts to some threads of late, this is largely due to the fact that no-one seems to take up on new threads here, at present.

Not really sure what the answer is. I too check this board (and one or two others) most days.

Perhaps I shall start an outrageous thread, simply to see if I can provoke a response....
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Nicolette on June 01, 2015, 10:34:02 PM
pcnd5584 - I read your posting about Buckfast Abbey's forthcoming new organ, and nearly replied but didn't. Sorry.  Anyway,  I'll reply here, although it's not the right thread - but simply to say that the current organ (the one designed by Ralph Downes) at the Royal Festival Hall divided opinion when it was new and I think this one may do the same.   
Nicolette
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: David Pinnegar on June 02, 2015, 11:18:26 PM
Perhaps I shall start an outrageous thread, simply to see if I can provoke a response....[/font]

Phew! Do you mean that your Buckfast thread wasn't outrageous enough?! ;D

It was certainly fun to read but so extensive that perhaps none of us knew quite where to start in reply, or how! It was actually excellent and very much appreciated I'm sure by all and only greeted with silence by all for similar reasons. So please keep going

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Barrie Davis on June 04, 2015, 03:45:13 PM
How is your foot now Nicolette, I have 3 metal bolts in my left ankle from a nasty fall and know only too well the time needed for a full recovery.

Best wishes

Barrie
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Paul Duffy on June 04, 2015, 07:03:07 PM
Yes David, the organ and its music is a lost cause, at least in church. Religion is a mugs game now. The world is evolving away from organised religion towards personal spirituality.

Best wishes,
Paul.
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: David Pinnegar on June 05, 2015, 12:18:40 AM
Paul - I was hoping not to be reading your conclusion . . . but we can try nevertheless.

There was a Times article this week quoting Carey saying that the CofE was just one generation away from extinction.

Young people simply do not see Christianity as relevant to their lives.

The danger with personal spirituality is that it's very undirected, can be misused, and can worship the teacher rather than understanding the teachings.

It's for this reason that I have been thinking radically trying to get to the heart of what the Creator is, the source of Creation, and therefore multiple interpretations beyond what I call derogatorily the "teddy bear" interpretation of religions in which one's personal teddy bear will look after the believer, an outlook which leads to much atheism after atrocities happen, such as the first World War, and theological justifications of relationship in answer to the question "Why did God who loves me let this happen to me?". It's for this reason that in looking beyond the personal and the anthropomorphic and envisioning the Creator of Life as a process just as life is a process, as I've written in theological areas of this forum, I can get people who have never considered God before, and atheists alike, to understand that there's relevance in our lives to our texts that reveal God.

If we are to engage the young generation, we have to show God as universal, common to us all and all there is, all powerful, invisible not mumbo jumbo but common sense visible to us all.

Indeed the process of matter coming together to cooperate to result in something more useful than the component parts is a matter of common sense when understood.

Focus upon the anthropomorphised Creator and personal spirituality leads only to differences rather than humanity working the purposes of the Creator.

Can we convey the Creator Consciousness more effectively?

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Paul Duffy on June 05, 2015, 06:51:09 PM
Hello David,

The fact remains that churches and organised religion are in decline. There is nothing that can be done to reverse it because the world is evolving away from it, as it is from monolithic centralised goverments. However, that is not to say that 'God' is not actively involved here. It is. But it needs considerable research and understanding to come to the realisation that 'God' is The Cosmic Energy which is everywhere and is not the preserve of one single religion but all of them and none. Perhaps people are becoming aware that the Cosmic Energy is around them and in them, so they do not feel the need for a 'middleman' anymore.

Your comment about consciousness is a timely one. I have been reading about the experiences of Karl Jung, and am toying with the idea of buying the complete Red Book but the expense is putting me off!  I have also noticed that 3 NDEs from other sources also mention a Temple of Wisdom and a Great Memory which records everything, perhaps via morphic resonance. I think we are coming close to the dawn of a new Golden Age, in which science will start to get to grips with these things.

Best wishes,
Paul
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Nicolette on June 05, 2015, 09:34:06 PM
How is your foot now Nicolette, I have 3 metal bolts in my left ankle from a nasty fall and know only too well the time needed for a full recovery.Best wishes Barrie

Thanks very much indeed for asking, Barrie.  It's well on the mend now and I'm back playing with both feet, although occasionally I have to compromise with some movements on the pedal board that can be a bit uncomfortable.

Goodness, sorry to hear about your ankle! 

I read recently that organists' ankles have a tendency to be less strong than those of pianists - the reason is that the pedals on a piano are heavier and so demand more "push" than on the organ.   Apparently, pianists' ankles are constantly getting a work-out, while organists' less so, even though we use our feet all the time.   
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: pcnd5584 on June 12, 2015, 05:03:52 PM
Perhaps I shall start an outrageous thread, simply to see if I can provoke a response....[/font]

Phew! Do you mean that your Buckfast thread wasn't outrageous enough?! ;D

It was certainly fun to read but so extensive that perhaps none of us knew quite where to start in reply, or how! It was actually excellent and very much appreciated I'm sure by all and only greeted with silence by all for similar reasons. So please keep going

Best wishes

David P

Ha! Thank you, David.

In which case, I might try a different one - which will be perhaps a touch less outrageous.

Paul Duffy  - I think that it depends what type of church one is talking about. Many cathedrals currently report a fairly healthy number of congregants at the majority of services (according to a survey last year in the Church Times).

It is true that there are also a lot of other churches (of varying sizes) which are half-empty - or which generally attract the vicar, the churchwardens, two old people and a dog at some services - and, to be honest, if it is raining, the dog stays at home.

However, I do not think that all is doom and gloom, just yet. There is still a fair amount of interest here in my own church for the organ - and choral music. People still listen to the voluntaries and, most weeks, one or two people will thank those of us involved in the musical life of our church for our contribution. It may not be earth-shattering, it may not be hordes of people who are aware and appreciative of the music; however, neither do I think that your rather negative pronouncements are necessarily true in every part of the country.


Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: pcnd5584 on June 12, 2015, 05:12:15 PM
pcnd5584 - I read your posting about Buckfast Abbey's forthcoming new organ, and nearly replied but didn't. Sorry.  Anyway,  I'll reply here, although it's not the right thread - but simply to say that the current organ (the one designed by Ralph Downes) at the Royal Festival Hall divided opinion when it was new and I think this one may do the same.   
Nicolette

Nicolette - thank you for your reply.

Sadly, the current organ has not been in the abbey for months. It has been removed. The services are being accompanied by an electronic organ.

Whilst the instrument in the RFH certainly did polarise opinion (and still does, to an extent), I am not sure that the same is true of the former organ in Buckfast Abbey. For one thing, Buckfast, in 1948 (and even in 1963) was a quiet backwater of Devonshire, and neither the abbey nor the organ were particularly well-known. In addition, from its inception, this instrument was always slightly odd - from the Hele incarnation (with most of it prepared-for) to the odd collection of pipe-work up in the tower which was intended for, as Ralph Downes put it, 'a well-intentioned Echo Organ'.

There was a story that the Great and Pedal reeds of the (partly very old) instrument in Holsworthy Parish Church, North Devon (where I lived for a few years) were removed by Hele (apparently in part-payment for a rebuild or restoration), and later inserted into the organ at Buckfast Abbey. Whilst it was certainly the case that these ranks were removed, I can find no record of them ever appearing in the abbey organ - nor do these ranks accord with any version of the stop-list.

The plot thickens....
[/font]
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: David Pinnegar on April 20, 2016, 05:33:57 PM
Is it just this forum that's dead in the water or has enthusiasm for organs and their places died for good? Are we, and organs, a dying breed?

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: revtonynewnham on April 20, 2016, 06:45:00 PM
Hi David

Web fora do seem to have declined in popularity, whilst FB and the like is still pretty busy - but the two tings are different.  There's a new web fora launching shortly covering vintage electronic organs - I've already contributed a few comments - I donpt know if there's public access yet, but there should be soon.  (http://www.mikebracchi.co.uk/)  It does show the sstrengths of the web forum in that a wealth of reference material, comments etc. is ther - allin one place.  Maybe when FB users realise how difficult it can be to find older material (or even something posted a few hours ago on busy pages) the traditional forum will make a comeback.

There's certainly a continuing - and maybe slowly growing - interest in organs - but also we are still seeing the attitude in too many churches that the instrument is old fashioned and should be got rid of.

We live in interesting times!

Every Blessing

Tony
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Paul Duffy on April 20, 2016, 09:59:56 PM
Tony, you signed off your post with an ancient Chinese curse.

On the subject of organs, I believe that the church organ is all but dead. The instrument's sheer difficulty to master, coupled with the extremely low return on one's investment of time and money learning it (I had to fund all my lessons, music, organ shoes, and examinations with NO help from the church) and poor/zero pay as an organist is hardly an attractive prospect to a young musician. Pipe organs will gradually migrate from churches into private ownership or into skips because A) there will be no-one to play them, and B) because the culture has changed.

On the subject of internet fora, I believe that people have a much shorter attention span these days, and, dare I say it, the average person's intelligence is quite poor and getting worse. People prefer posting short messages on Twitter and Facebook rather than the more thought-out letter style response of a forum post. Though occasionally, you do find some intelligence out there:

"It is currently 10:29PM and I am watching the decline of Western civilisation on television" (Twitter poster's response to Channel Four's odious Sex Box programme)

Best wishes,
Paul
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: JBR on April 20, 2016, 10:57:37 PM
Pipe organs will gradually migrate from churches into private ownership or into skips because A) there will be no-one to play them, and B) because the culture has changed.
Or (C) because foreign churches have bought them!
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Nicolette on April 21, 2016, 09:06:00 PM
Do remember that the RCO's outreach and education programmes introduce plenty of young Brits to the organ.  That has to help the future of organ-playing in this country.  And I think it is a bit of a national problem - in Lyon last October, we attended two organ recitals that both drew huge audiences.  I believe all is not lost, and we've got to believe all is not lost.  I certainly didn't convert from piano to organ ten years ago, to hang my head dolefully about it.   We can do much, as players, to bring great music (because this will highlight the instruments) to congregations, audiences, pupils (current and potential).   We owe it to the king of instruments.
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Paul Duffy on April 23, 2016, 02:11:01 PM
I admire your refreshing optimism and enthusiasm Nicolette. I am also impressed that you managed to reach ARCO level in ten years. Though I gained the ALCM in piano, I only managed Grade 5 ABRSM in organ, so well done!

What pieces are you playing this weekend? It's Saturday afternoon and I still haven't decided what I am doing!

Best wishes,
Paul
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Nicolette on April 23, 2016, 04:34:01 PM
Thanks very much, Paul.  This weekend, I'm delving into Guilmant's Short Pieces for Church Services and doing his Andante in F (sort-of a "quiet season" piece).   I wouldn't say "only" Grade 5 organ - there's some lovely repertoire at that level.   Are you going beyond that? 

Good luck with choosing something to play for tomorrow!

Nicolette
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Paul Duffy on April 23, 2016, 09:58:25 PM
Thanks Nicolette.

I don't have plans to take any more organ exams.

Have decided on the following pieces for tomorrow:

Evensong (Martin) and Minuet in Classical Style (Armstrong Gibbs) as preludes

Choral Song (S.S. Wesley) as a postlude.

Best wishes,
Paul
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: organforumadmin on May 23, 2016, 07:38:48 PM
Is it enthusiasm for the organ or merely this forum in death throws?


Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: Barrie Davis on May 24, 2016, 04:28:01 PM
I don't think it is this forum in death throws, I think it is a general thing, people will soon get tired of facebook etc.
Title: Re: Is the age of the internet forum dead? Facebook RULEZ OK . . .
Post by: JBR on May 24, 2016, 10:42:23 PM
I doubt it will be of any encouragement but, despite the fact that I haven't anything constructive to say at the moment (not being an organist) I nevertheless visit this site (and another 'competitor') every day!