Organ matters - Organs matter!

Its existence is recorded but not much by way of details, and the record is partly out of date anyway. (If you are doing a search, type "Miskin" in the search box, not "Mountain Ash"):

http://npor.rcm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=P00461

I will make enquiries about whether the good folk at NPOR would like the complete details.

I have seen this organ and have more details and pictures. If anyone is seriously interested and cares to send me a PM with an e-mail address, I will send them on. It was playable about a year ago.

At one point there were hopes that it might do for our project, but unfortunately unforeseen factors intervened and the goal posts moved, so it was no longer suitable.

Found the building on Google Maps street view easily enough, but unable to find anything on NPOR, despite trying various combinations and possibilities.

A Google search for the church website found references to a bid to raise funds to save the adjacent church hall and pre-school and a further reference to the amalgamated Hope Baptist Church, but nothing about the organ.

Is this one recorded?

There were three bidders on this one. The final price was £1,051 so it looks as though someone was seriously interested. From the bid history it looks as though the buyer may have Dutch or German connections.

At least a couple of redundant organs have been lucky recently on eBay.

Quote from: diapason on June 05, 2012, 09:18:06 AM
Price is something of a joke ::)

But it does say near the bottom, (sixth line up), that the buy it now price is just a figure to get started, and that all offers will be considered.

The following organ is on eBay. Ends 31st. May at 19:28.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Church-pipe-organ-/160806628977?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item2570d26e71

NPOR survey G01312, IBO Redundant Organs list no. 345.

Dimensions are not obvious on the eBay listing, but appear right at the bottom: W 10ft. x D 7ft. X H 14ft. approx.

There were five different bidders for this one. It eventually went for £565, so it looks like someone has a use for it somewhere.

Let's hope they want it as an organ and not just for the woodwork.

Quote from: MusingMuso on May 21, 2012, 06:25:56 AM

.........The last time I priced up an engine ignition sensor, it came complete with an ECU....total cost about £600  :o

In organ terms, that's my worry, because it could seal the fate of an organ in due course.

MM

Yes, I think you have hit a fairly large nail squarely on the head there. Sometimes the cost of the individual component which has failed may be low, but the replacement only comes wrapped up in a horrendously expensive module.

Quote from: MusingMuso on May 21, 2012, 06:46:31 AM
Try this David:-


http://www.jwwalker.co.uk/reference/Grand%20Rapids%20Excerpt.pdf

MM

Impressive.

Quote from: David Pinnegar on May 19, 2012, 10:22:14 AM
Dear MM

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this important issue..........

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: MusingMuso on May 19, 2012, 12:01:23 PM
Although I'm quoting David's response............

MM

All thought provoking points. Considering the number of organs around now with various 'advanced features' in them, it does make you wonder what may happen in the future.

Quote from: David Pinnegar on May 19, 2012, 10:22:14 AM

..................As the UK is short of at least one if not two nuclear power stations, there will be power cuts in five years time . . . .

David P

A very interesting point David, but one which, I suggest, would affect far more than just electric actions and playing aids. How many organs today retain fully functional hand-pumping equipment, or indeed any hand-pumping mechanism at all? There are some; relatively small instruments tucked away in odd places, but they seem to be in the minority, and anything over two manuals so equipped must surely be unusual nowadays?

The wider picture is, for want of a better word, fascinating. It seems that we are in danger of having a conventional instrument, i.e. one where the sound is produced by natural means, which is becoming totally reliant on electricity.

Of course there is another side of the coin. Judging by the number of amplifiers and other boxes usually littered around them these days, power cuts would likely also have a fairly profound effect on many "Worship bands" as well! Now there's a thought.......

Perhaps Mellstock may yet see the return of Miss Fancy Day on the harmonium, or even Reuben Dewy and his merry crew in the minstrels' gallery! (Suitably lubricated by some of "Reuben's finest" of course.  ;))

However, my post was prompted, at least in part, by considerations of a specific situation, namely one where, by reasons of space and other factors, the only reasonable and practical way to accommodate a pipe organ may be to have a detached console.

Presumably now, that would inevitably mean associated electronics, not for clever gadgets, but simply to connect the organists to the bulk of their instrument. The question then arises, "If electronics are unavoidable, what is the best sort to have?"

Quote from: David Pinnegar on May 19, 2012, 10:22:14 AM

........
Best wishes

David P

Postcript - at least wire contacts are demonstrably repairable with mere cleaning of oxidisation. However, one should attach a proviso that some are rhodium plated and others similarly plated with slower oxidising metals than the base metal . . . so sandpaper is not the stuff to use on them. I forget what is the recommended way of cleaning contacts . . . ?

Yes, the caution about inadvertently removing plating is important. Gold is also often used in some applications. However, many such moving contacts tend to have a rubbing action as they are operated. In a sense this can be self-cleaning, but it inevitably takes place over the same small areas of the respective levers or springs. This eventually wears out the plated layer in that particular spot, base metal is exposed to the air, and it starts to oxidise, leading to poor contact anyway.

My only experience with this directly connected to organs is with our practise instrument. Admittedly it took a long time, but eventually keys in the most used areas of the manuals started to give problems. Once that started to happen, frequent cleaning became a necessity. I was advised by the manufacturer that this was the normal 'downward path' and the only proper solution was new contacts. They were most helpful in supplying replacements.

Agreed, this is not difficult. Any electronics 'amateur' adept with a soldering iron could affect the replacement on a home instrument, but wouldn't a church be cautious about allowing an amateur to tinker in this way perhaps? Especially if they didn't want to upset the builder who regularly cared for the instrument? And what about those annoying moments between when the problems first start to arise, and someone eventually gets around to obtaining the spares and wading in with the soldering iron?

It was this sort of thing which I had in mind regarding Hall-effect switches. MM mentions problems with them in motor vehicles, which is interesting, but is that perhaps associated more with that particular application? It sounds like it may be a rather harsher environment than the average organ console.

Quote from: David Pinnegar on May 20, 2012, 01:20:00 PM
Hi!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Relay-and-Switch-board-pipe-organ-/251065571038
is interesting as it raises precisely the issue in this thread. Here we have a telephone technology relay box for a unit organ which has been replaced by some solid state alternative.

In 50 years time, the relay box will still be working . . . and the electronic replacement . . . ??

Best wishes

David P

(But the vacuum cleaner stored underneath will have worn out long since!!   :))
I cannot quite make out the detail of these relays. While they may be "Telephone style technology," as far as I can see they do not look like the relays specifically designed for UK telephone exchanges. Perhaps they were designed by an organ builder or parts supplier? Or perhaps adapted from some other application?

No matter, but it's worth noting that the environment in Strowger telephone exchanges was generally quite well controlled in terms of temperature, humidity, and especially in the prevention of dust. Even so, well trained specialist staff, with custom made tools and equipment, were constantly employed in cleaning, adjusting and repairing. From my observation, this is far removed from the conditions normally found in the average church organ loft.

It seems to me that any such relays are likely to be affected by damp and dust. Given such an installation, how much time would an organ builder expect to spend on periodic maintenance I wonder?

All very interesting. Thank you both for your comments so far.

I have started a new topic with this quote from another thread because this section seemed more appropriate for my questions.

Quote from: MusingMuso on May 10, 2012, 11:01:41 PM
I'm just over 60 years of age, and in that time, I have seen organ-actions change dramatically; first away from the electro-mechanical systems using telephone-exchange technology, to the early electronic, transistorised systems and now to the computerised systems of to-day. In effect, not only has the technology changed every 20 years or so, it means that there is now the same sort of planned obsolence we see in motor-vehicles, where spares become increasingly scarce as time marches on. Although I have no reason for suggesting this, I also wonder how reliable the hall sensors of some modern key-actions will be, knowing only too well that a motor-vehicle ABS and engine-speed sensors have a distinctly limited life.

Of course, the same arguments apply exactly to electronic instruments; many of the earlier ones now almost irrepairable; especially where they use dedicated IC's.

Compare this, if you will, to certain tracker instruments, which clatter and clank away throughout Europe, making every piece of music sound like a stage presentation of "River Dance." At the very least, they still work, albeit with a few problems and the occasional bit of maintenance.

Even the worst pneumatic actions usually lasted 30+ years, and the best of them three times longer, but with one massively important difference. With both mechanical and pneumatic actions, even a skilled mechanic, engineer or DIY enthusiast could make sense of them and effect the very minimum of a temporary repair or even something more permanent. Glue, bits of leather, iron wire and screw drivers are still remarkably common-place in hardware stores and elsewhere.

At the re-opening of a certain cathedral organ in the UK, a "spike" in the electrical system caused a considerable delay in proceedings, and it wasn't until the second-half of the programme that the full organ could be used.

I just wonder of there isn't a certain attractiveness in transmission-systems which require little more than a few multi-plugs and a minimum of wiring, but at what cost long-term?

MM

Thank you MM.

One of the points often mentioned when making a case for a pipe organ versus an electronic instrument is the likely eventual obsolescence of the components and technology in the latter. As you point out, much of the electronics associated with the keyboards and stops in an electric action pipe organ could be very similar to the equivalent parts in the electronic organ.

This is unfortunate when one is faced with a situation where the only practical option for a pipe organ may be to have the body of it in one place and a detached console in another. It's likely I suppose that most of us would prefer the sound of the pipe organ anyway, but it does rather undermine one argument at least, for instance when trying to convince sceptical members of a PCC.

In a major overhaul of a detached console pipe organ, what proportion of the cost would be tied up in replacing obsolete electronics? How would this compare with the cost of renewing worn out parts of a mechanical action? Probably an impossible question to answer in general terms.

Of course there is the other angle you mention, that whereas a competent organ builder may turn out most mechanical parts in-house, the design and manufacture of electronics is a different matter.

You mention Hall-effect sensors for keyboard actions. Optical sensors could also be an option. Yet only four years or so ago I happened to be in an organ builder's workshop where a two manual detached console instrument was being rebuilt, and noticed that the keyboard was still being equipped with wiper- style contacts for the keys.

I asked whether they ever considered using one of the alternatives and was told no, because they preferred the wiper contact type. Why, I wondered. Was it a cost saving measure? Were or are they more reliable? Or was that particular organ builder just more familiar with them and therefore felt on safer ground? Did he feel unsure about the different circuitry or power supply requirements associated with Hall-effect or optical devices?

Quote from: MusingMuso on May 10, 2012, 11:01:41 PM

..........At the re-opening of a certain cathedral organ in the UK, a "spike" in the electrical system caused a considerable delay in proceedings, and it wasn't until the second-half of the programme that the full organ could be used..................

MM

What do organ builders do when confronted with an installation requiring electronics I wonder? Do they consult an engineer, or rely on advice from the manufacturers? It would be interesting to hear comments on this, particularly from the professionals.

Quote from: MusingMuso on May 10, 2012, 01:36:31 PM

............... and even thrown out due to ongoing problems; especially with electro-pneumatic actions and solid-state switching.............
 
MM

Could you expand a little please MM? Not questioning your statement, merely interested in what goes wrong.

Thanks.

J.

Excellent............

PLease let us know when the books get published.  :)

Thanks Tony.

I will look into sending the details to the NPOR when I have had a chance to check them for accuracy. At the moment some of the information I have is contradictory.

J.

Thanks to those who have replied so far.

Tony, yes, I have had a look on the NPOR. The present church, i.e. the organ's present home, is listed but has no pipe organ record against it. It originally had a Hammond which, interestingly, was sold to a dealer for £680, over £200 more than the cost of the pipe organ which replaced it. This was in 1959. This church is now vacated by the Anglicans and may possibly change denominations, so no information is easily available directly from that source.

My information so far has come from church correspondence with Cowin at the time, copied from documents held at the Chester Records Office. He apparently offered the church a choice of two second hand pipe organs which he seems to have had in stock, but unfortunately does not say where either of them came from.

A search for "Cowin%" on the NPOR brought up thirty entries, twenty eight of which refer to this firm. In one or two cases they refer to "Cowin & Son," which may be correct, but could also of course quite easily be a simple misunderstanding or error on someone's part. Several of the records refer to organs moved from elsewhere, so it seems this was a significant part of the business. The latest date referred to was, I think, 1981.

There may be a couple of other avenues I can try, but in the meantime, any further ideas or information would be gratefully received.

Thanks,

J.

I have already posted this request on another forum but am also trying here, just in case it may reach a little further.

Does anyone know anything about John H. Cowin & Co. of Liverpool please? I can find no real information on the internet so suspect that they no longer exist. If not, were they taken over by another firm, or did they just disappear?

My reason for asking is that I am trying to trace the origins of an organ which they sold to a church in what is now Merseyside, back in the 1950s. The instrument was not built by them but rather supplied as "Second hand, fully reconditioned." I know the original builder; my interest now is in where it was installed originally, before Cowin sold it on.

I am wondering if their records may have survived somewhere, even if the firm is no longer around.

Any information would be appreciated. Thanks.

Quote from: David Pinnegar on March 08, 2012, 11:26:45 PM

.....................................
A friend with enthusiasms in the vintage car area remarked to me the other day that skills necessary for maintaining vintage and veteran cars which relied upon traditional workshop practices which are now the domain of grey and white haired knowledge on the brink of disappearing. There is a particular need for apprenticeships in this area and the market is significant.

..........

Don't forget also steam locomotive and traction engine preservation, or indeed the vintage diesel railway locomotives kept running by bands of enthusiastic volunteers. Both are excellent examples of keeping alive engineering skills which are rapidly being lost elsewhere.

When you see the enormous effort involved in these tasks now, it illustrates just how skilled the workforce was in the days when places like Swindon, Eastleigh, Doncaster and Crewe, to name but a few, could turn out, from start to finish, drawing board to paint shop, large sophisticated locomotives as a matter of routine.

Quote from: David Drinkell on March 06, 2012, 12:47:22 AM
I'm sure I'm about to reveal embarrassing ignorance, but what piece is he playing?  Sounds like fun....

Toccata by William Driffill. There is another link here, played by Minne Veldman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHfz7Lkk8Vw

Have just ordered a copy.

J.

I have just heard that this organ is emigrating to a church across the Channel. The case alone was a very fine piece of workmanship. It is good that it has found a home.

We visited this organ last June. I can confirm that at that time it could not be considered as playable, although with one of the blowers working, and help from the hand pump, a few sounds could be obtained. However it was clearly obvious that it would need some serious work done on it to make it playable, rather more I suspect than just a new blower and trunking.

It is in a very good quality case which would look well in the right situation, although I suspect there are some places which it may not quite suit. The pedal board is non-standard; the pedals are shorter than normal, although any competent organist would probably get used to them without too much trouble.

The organ itself is very compact, but the blowers and reservoir are large and housed in a small room behind the instrument. Sadly it was not suitable for the particular situation we had to fill, but I have kept the information on it. I have several photographs and other details, including copies of correspondence concerning the organ and its condition. I would check with the contact at Chivenor for permission before passing them on, but I don't expect there would be any problem if the enquirer were genuinely interested.

I had no difficulty arranging a visit. For security reasons we were accompanied at all times and our guide's other duties meant that our visit was limited to an hour, but he couldn't have been more helpful. Service life being what it is, personnel there may have changed by now, so the contact may be a different person, but the general attitude was that they would like to see the organ go to a good home.

If anyone is interested please contact me by P.M.

J.

Quote from: David Pinnegar on February 04, 2012, 11:49:46 AM

........... [I object to four figure accuracy in this context - to that extent it would have been temperature dependant (can anyone find details of tuning fork variation with temperature?) and we should refer to it as 458.

............................

Best wishes

David P

A quick search brought up an article here David:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuning_fork

Quote: "A decrease in frequency of one vibration in 21,000 for each °F change is typical for a steel tuning fork."


And another article here:

http://www.tunelab-world.com/calforks.html

Quote: "A good rule of thumb is the pitch of a steel fork drops one cent for every eight degrees rise in temperature Fahrenheit. (That's about five degrees Celsius.)  So if you want one half cent accuracy you would need four degree F temperature accuracy.  Remember that when you bring your tool box in from the cold car."

Perhaps of equal interest would be the sensitivity of human perception, regarding the 'accuracy' or otherwise of pitch. Presumably it's likely to vary greatly from one individual to another.

Why can some individuals apparently detect very small discrepancies in pitch and tuning, while for others, anything within half a semitone passes more or less unnoticed? I suppose those of us in the latter category could be further subdivided into some who may be vaguely aware that all is not well, but are unable to define the reason for it, and others who are blissfully unaware that there is anything wrong at all.

Supposing the human ear also varies with temperature, mood, and maybe a host of other things? What if that perceived change is not in the tuning fork after all? Or is that another can of worms?

(Conductor to Sopranos, "We seem to be a little flat there."
Sopranos to Conductor, "Perhaps you are standing in a draught sir."  ;) )

Edit: Apologies. Since posting I have realised that I inserted the URLs as ftp links instead of hyperlinks, consequently they didn't work. I have now corrected them.