Organ matters - Organs matter!

A further five ranks or part ranks of pipes are now on sale, some of them from this organ, (Trent Vale Methodist Church):

VOIX CELESTE RANK 8ft.
OPEN DIAPASON RANK, 8ft (Part rank).
STOPPED DIAPASON RANK, 8ft.
GEMSHORN RANK 4ft.
13 TRUMPET PIPES.

Rather than put all the links on here, it's easier simply to say that putting church organ in an "All Categories" search should bring them up.

Apparently the seller is the Area Methodist Organ Advisor.

As to the logic, is it possible that there are two aspects to this?

1) If all the items go for a minimum of the starting bid, the sale stands to fetch perhaps two or three hundred pounds. That may well be more than would be obtained by advertising the complete instrument as redundant, on a "Please take it away" basis.

2) Is it perhaps easier to sell or give away component parts, e.g. pipes, pedal board, bench, woodwork (good quality and seasoned), than to find a home for a complete instrument?

Is this likely to become a trend?

Apparently this one will be emigrating to France. It's good to hear that it will continue to be used.

Quote from: jcrouch55 on July 01, 2011, 11:00:54 AM
I've emailed the gentlemen asking various questions and will happily pass the answers on to NPOR.  What do people know of Conacher instruments - I only know the name?

Would be interested to know if you have had any reply yet? I sent a similar e-mail on the 30th. but have had no response so far.

:)

There are various solutions, some more sophisticated than others, depending on the situation in which you are working.

A word of caution though. Don't forget you are effectively connecting to earth one part of your body, and may be fiddling around in a partially dismantled electrical appliance with another. If the object you are working on has a mains power transformer normally connected to the mains supply, and by some chance a switch has been left on, and you just happen to accidentally touch a terminal which should have been shielded..................

That is why, in some (industrial) situations, anti-static straps are used with leads which have a 2 Megohm resistor in each end. They will still discharge the static, but limit the current if the user does happen to touch something live.

Unlikely in an organ move I know, but there is no harm in being aware. When I put on that wrist band I always remind myself that I am strapping on an electrical conductor. It's surprising how often it makes me recheck that the object I am working on is unplugged / disconnected.  :)

Quote from: David Pinnegar on June 26, 2011, 07:40:47 PM
..........

Even in the dismantling of an electronic instrument, the same applies. When a set of circuit boards have been simply chopped out of a cable loom, re-identifying what went where, in terms particularly of signals and power supplies, is a puzzle requiring a science degree rather than merely the common sense of mechanical attachment if the relevant labelling was not done in the first place.

However amateur the labelling, more is always better than less.
.............

Best wishes

David P

To any untrained amateur contemplating dismantling an organ containing electronics, may I also suggest giving anti-static protection more than a passing thought. Professional electronics engineers and technicians do; they have learnt by experience.

For pluggable circuit boards, good anti-static bags, obtainable from electronics component suppliers, are well worthwhile for storage and transport. Not only may that board be expensive to replace, but identifying the fault may be difficult, and if it's in an old model of something a replacement may prove hard to find.

Larger assemblies attached to wiring looms may be more difficult to protect, but as a general rule with electronic components such as ICs or transistors, don't touch them, or the metallic parts of conductors connected to them, if it can possibly be avoided. If it can't be avoided, such as when wiring or fitting them, then anti-static wrist straps are available.

The original contributor on the forum where this started has just added the following comment:

"I am happy to say that a builder comes to take all away on Tuesday. It has been so heartening to receive so many encouragements from a multitude of people both publicly and private. I had no idea that help could come so quickly."

:)

Thank you Barry for that prompt reply. I was rather hoping you might have an explanation.

I realised your earlier post was referring to VAT matters. I quoted it because it appeared to suggest some sort of definition of what constituted fixtures and what were fittings, but I see now that I was mistaken.

Anyway, thanks again.

While making enquiries about an organ in a closed, but not sold, church, I was advised that because it is a listed building, removal of the organ may not be allowed and it may have to be incorporated into whatever scheme is approved for the building after it is sold.

I am told that it all depends on whether the local council regards the organ as a fixture or a fitting. The latter may be removed but the former may not. In short it appears to be down to how the local council, or more probably an official in the council offices, interprets the rules.

This seems to be a very haphazard way of doing things. Two different councils may have very similar situations, yet one could allow an organ to be removed while the other may not.

A search on the forum has turned up this post by Barry Williams:

http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,475.msg1921.html#msg1921

For ease of reading, the following is an edited version:

Quote from: Barry Williams on February 14, 2011, 01:58:05 AM
................................

There are detailed guidelines explaining the application of the relief to pipe organs in Listed (technically, 'Protected') Buildings...............  Following a test case (not involving organs,) the fabric of the building was defined as being the floor, windows, doors, walls and roof.  There are wider circumstances.............. (providing that the organ is actually part of the building,) .......................
Barry Williams

I am a little puzzled by the post.

On the one hand it says "The fabric of the building was defined as being the floor, windows, doors, walls and roof." It then continues "(Providing that the organ is actually part of the building.)"

Does the latter statement not imply a possible modification of the former?

Is it a good thing to apply this rule to organs anyway?

It's possible to visualize various scenarios here, and I can see all sorts of associated arguments, but I am thinking mainly about an instance where an organ may be 'trapped' somewhere where it may just be hidden and left to rot, if a building is converted into perhaps a residence or flats, or removed to a place where it may be maintained and used as a musical instrument.

Has anyone had any experience of this, or any thoughts? Barry perhaps?

Quote from: David Pinnegar on June 04, 2011, 01:23:54 PM
Hi!

I received details this morning of
http://www.organmatters.co.uk/Purbrook%20-%20Methodist%20-%20Bishop%201894%20-%20Hants%20UK%20-%20M0188.htm

NPOR  P00655

Bishop & Son 1894 - Dimensions - Width   c.12ft est. Depth   c. 8ft? est.  Height  c.14ft est.

12 stops

Best wishes

David P

Have been to look at this organ.

It seems to be a very nice instrument, and playable even though it has been out of use, apparently for a couple of years. Not surprisingly it is in need of tuning, but all in all rather good, I thought. If there were any serious problems lurking, they weren't immediately obvious. (Only a very amateur and completely uneducated opinion of course.)

It's taller than stated, at close to 19 feet, and the quoted measurements don't include the blower and bellows, which are in a separate cupboard measuring approximately 15' x 5' x 4'. The pedal action is TP.

The good news: I believe they have had some interest and a possible serious offer. I hope very much that it works out for them as the organ seems to be well worth saving.

A very interesting response has just surfaced on the forum where this was originally raised. I suspect there are some who, like me, look at both boards, but for those who don't and may be interested, it may be worth posting a couple of links here:

http://www.steinbuhler.com/html/our_research.html

and, (solid reading, this):

http://appca.com.au/proceedings/2009/part_1/Boyle_Rhonda_Boyle_Robin.pdf

The above leads me to ponder a couple of things. For example, I wonder how many beginners have given up the piano simply because of straightforward physical difficulty in finding and covering the required notes? As the route to the organ often begins with the piano, has that had an effect on the number of organists around, both in the past and now?

Children in particular have small hands, and just at a time when they may be interested in learning, in fact the best time, when they are young.

There are smaller versions of some other instruments, such as 1/2 or 3/4 size cellos, but what about a decent, not a toy, childrens' piano? Perhaps there are. If so, would there be a logical case for them to be more widely used by music teachers and the like?

Finally, on a lighter note, (oh dear):

On the subject of chromatic buttons and the organ repertoire, the following may be of interest. (PLEASE NOTE: ORGANISTS with a delicate constitution or of nervous disposition may wish to prepare any medicinal draughts beforehand!)   :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VVFu8GQyWw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgu2BlVqgHo

(Hope I don't get banned for posting that.)  ;D

This question is prompted by a discussion which has started in "Another place," but I don't yet see there an answer.

How, when and why did the width of piano / organ keys get standardised, in the main, to the present sizes? I say in the main because there are of course keyboard instruments with different size keys; accordions for example.

Logically, it would seem that slightly narrower keys would make it easier to span more notes, although I suppose it would reduce the "Target area," especially for some of the more vigorous pianio pieces. Or was it possibly something to do with the piano mechanisms attached to the keys, or the layout of the strings?

Moving away from the normal keyboard altogether to something like the chromatic button key accordion, it becomes possible to span an even greater range, and in a five row arrangement they even offer choices of fingering, although they (the keyboards not the instruments)* are perhaps not well suited to the organ repertoire.

Thinking about it, I suppose concentrating a tracker mechanism into the length occupied by the keys of a button keyboard may be a difficult task. Of course nowadays there would be the option of an electric action; wires don't take up much room!

Were some apparently difficult pieces from the past actually written for different size keyboards?

Do the inhabitants of this eminent forum have any answers?

(* Post modified to avoid ambiguity.) (Or perhaps it should read "And the instruments.")  :))

Quote from: David Pinnegar on June 04, 2011, 01:23:54 PM
Hi!

I received details this morning of
http://www.organmatters.co.uk/Purbrook%20-%20Methodist%20-%20Bishop%201894%20-%20Hants%20UK%20-%20M0188.htm

NPOR  P00655

................................

David P

Does any member on here have knowledge of, or aquaintance with, this organ? If so, any comments please?

Please PM me if you prefer.  :)

Thanks.

Quote from: David Pinnegar on June 03, 2011, 12:59:24 AM
Hi!

In fact in the Autumn a brass band http://www.surreyyeomanry.com/ want to record at Hammerwood and I am trying to persuade them to use the Elgin Room and do something with organ.

If anyone has suggestions as to repertoire that would be interesting with organ perhaps they might be open to ideas . . .

Best wishes

David P

Organ and brass......... excellent.  :)

Going back to the original post, I know a good musician whose first instrument is the organ and second instrument the double bass. For a while she helped out in an amateur orchestra when they were suddenly left without a bass player.

At a rehearsal for a concert in the local church, she (the organist), had to jump off her bass 'perch' and go back to the choir stalls for something which had been left there. The organ is situated off the chancel behind the choir stalls.

As she went through the screen doors, subdued panic broke out in the pit, accompanied by desperate murmurings of "No organ.......... No organ!"

I suppose some of the orchestra may have had a bad experience in the past with an over enthusiastic organist, but their fears would have been entirely unfounded in this case. Many of them had never heard her play. They would have had to have gone some way to find a more sensitive accompanist. In fact, thinking about it now after reading Colin's original post, they probably missed a golden opportunity to broaden their repertoire.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your explanations, and for the associated links.

Colin, your example of the TV reception is very apt; I just had not applied the principle to organ pipes, and I take your point about the voicing.

The link to Physics Central is extremely interesting. For me the demonstration further down the page, using the five metronomes, is excellent; thank you for that. In another time and place, it might be interesting to experiment with things like putting liquid of varying amounts in the drink cans, or setting one of the metronomes to double or half the rate of the others, but I digress.

Quote from: Colin Pykett on May 23, 2011, 07:00:19 PM
What does matter for pipes in close proximity in organs, though, is if their mouths are too close.  Then they can pull each other into phase-lock and you then lose the desirable chorus effect of multiple separately tuned pipes.  It can make them difficult to tune also.  So they are often staggered in height on a soundboard to increase the distance between their mouths.

Most interesting.

Thank you again for your replies.

If, to the knowledgeable, this question appears completely silly, then please forgive my ignorance in asking it, but I have searched through the various links above and found no reference to it.

One often sees organ pipes bent in various directions, presumably in order to accommodate them in restricted spaces. In some cases the bends are quite severe, to the extent of the pipe doing a complete U turn. Does this affect the sound of the pipe?

This link, http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/flutes.v.clarinets.html#time related to the one above, appears to give a good demonstration of how a wave travels up and down a pipe. However, it occurs to me that if an open pipe is bent, then the two ends are no longer in the same positions relative to each other externally, as they would be in a straight pipe. Or is this technique only used in stopped pipes?

Even if it were only used in stopped pipes, does the bend cause more energy to be absorbed in maintaining the wave? If so, would the effect be of any practical significance?

Once again, apologies for my ignorance. Any thoughts or explanations appreciated.

Just idle curiosity, and presumably of no importance whatever, but is the board running an hour slow?

Thanks for posting that. It brings back fond memories of Dudley Savage's excellent and very popular request programme "As Prescribed," from, as the comment says, the ABC Cinema in Plymouth.

It used to be broadcast live on what was then the BBC West of England Home Service every Sunday morning. It was regular listening in our household so I well remember hearing it as a child.

Dudley Savage doesn't get mentioned much nowadays, but I seem to remember he was an excellent organist. He studied under the assistant organist at Truro Cathedral, but was probably best known for his accomplished performances on the cinema organ.

It would appear that the Plymouth organ went to Blackheath Halls, London. Is it still in use there?

Just found this on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Old-Church-Organ-Music-Vintage-Antique-Cheap-Clear-/120706463367?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item1c1aaa7687

Sadly not much left except perhaps the keyboards, some woodwork, and a few pipes. It's listed as "New," "Antique" and "Cheap to clear" with an asking price of £5,000.

It all seems rather strange, given the accompanying pictures. They do admit, further down, that "There are a few bits missing/broken!"

According to the listing, there have been two offers!

Many thanks for all the replies. I have a feeling that there is a wealth of information there and I shall be rereading them carefully.

I did a little recording, nearly forty years ago, in the days when a Uher reel to reel was about the best portable machine that even the wealthiest of amateurs could aspire to, (they were used by professionals too). I used the Sony equivalent which, if I recall correctly, was only about half the price. I still have it, and the last time I tried it, with some of the tapes from that time, it still worked.

As with so much else, advances in engineering have changed everything. Clearly I have a lot of catching up to do.

My apologies if this topic has been raised here before; if it has perhaps someone would be kind enough to direct me to the relevant posts. Failing that, has anyone any suggestions or experience regarding digital audio recording equipment suitable for recording organ, (mainly, though not exclusively)?

I am thinking of something small, portable and suitable for the amateur, a modern equivalent of the old portable reel to reel / cassette recorders.

Any suggestions welcome, also any tips regarding making recordings.

Many thanks.