Organ matters - Organs matter!

It sounds too intimate to be Notre Dame, more like somewhere such as S. Clothilde.

Dear Barry,

Fran and I send our best wishes back to you and June, it would be good to catch up at some point, and here about your exam adventures!

Best wishes,

I am aware that this has taken us off topic slightly, but we await more news, in the meantime, I believe the discussion on here is very worthwhile.

Jonathan

This is an interesting discussion for me, as I am very keen to hear the various positions on this.  Barry's Oxbridge quote example is quite an interesting one, and I would agree that the incurred cost to the organ builder in time, travel and other materials has been can be high indeed!  The Oxbridge example is one end of the scale, and there are many probably not much short of this.  Our daily rate is costed at £250 for our skilled staff, probably low, but our overheads are inevitably lower than larger firms.  So as Barry suggests two days of work should be charged at £500. 

It is impossible to tell whether we are taken for a ride by some churches, however, my generally feeling is we are not.  My initial contact with churches, including the first visit is usually no more than a discussion of needs and to some extent finances available.  This progresses to a report, but usually only when there is a further indication of interest.  Not that it means a great deal, but I do mark everything with copyright, including drawings!

One other matter I would be interested to know more about is organ builders quoting ridiculous amounts for a job simply because they don't want the work.  Our position is we are happy to take on any work no matter how small, as MD I plan to continue that ideal as long as I am in charge!

Jonathan

Dear Barry,

Thanks for your comments, and as you know, these qualifications take years to get, as did my communication engineering ones, which I never use!! However, the act of work towards exams is the main reason for taking them, as a means to improve the players ability rather than the letters in themselves.

I see the benefit of accreditation, but in most cases organ advisors use IBO membership of a pre-requisite for 'recommending' an organ builder to the DAC and Chancellor.  Needless to say, I need not tell you the system that organ advisors work under and how DAC's advise the Chancellor, we both know how it should work and how it does work in a number of cases.  I have a Rector who understands the system intricately and doesn't put up with any messing around with DAC's!

However, there are many other builders, some big names such as Trevor Tipple in the West Midlands, and many smaller ones around the country who have managed to keep organs going in many churches which would otherwise remain silent.  Part of what we do is help facilitate this work through our own work on organs around the country.  We love working on the big projects, and while there are only two of us currently full time, hopefully rising to four in the summer, we have a number of other people to call on when the work is busy.  For me, reputation is far more important than accreditation, as you know, there are a number of cathedral organists out there without the qualifications you would expect carrying out music making of a high standard!

Back to exams.  I have a major criticism of the ABRSM, which I have had for years and which, if I were in charge, or perhaps had the time to be, would change, and that is make examiners professional and carry out examining throughout the year.  It would ensure more consistency, and I have certainly seen a lot of incosistency over the years!

If we ever come across each other professionally at some point, and I'm sure we will as we cover Cornwall to Kent and South Coast to Birmingham at present, I will of course refuse payment and return any such payment, as it is company policy not to be paid for inspections, meetings and reports.  I agree that the work can sometimes be very time consuming, there are two projects we are currently working on which have required relatively detailed drawings, however, that is part of working in the 21st century, we win our work by our work, and when we do we reap the benefits of being paid for the job!

Best wishes,

Jonathan

Barry, I have a real issue with organ builders charging for reports.  Organ building appears to be one of the few professions where this is still done.  We do not.  We run a business, and I have shareholders who wish the business to be successful, consequently as Managing Director it is part of my job to ensure we win work.  This, like most companies working in manufacturing, after all that is what organ building is regardless of the artistic aspect, is achieved by making visits to churches and preparing reports.  Whilst we would love to be paid for the act of winning work, it is fundamentally wrong in my view that we should expect churches to pay for the time we spend in trying to win that work, hence we do not charge. 

As for the IBO, I will always refuse to become a member, as previously mentioned by me elsewhere, we win our business and subsequently our reputation on how well we carry out the work we do, they only reason I can see for being a member of the IBO is the 'so-called' grievance procedure, which according to our lawyers is superceded and significantly improved by contract law and laws regarding sales and services.  It is a little like shops saying you have rights of exchange for 30 days if the goods are faulty!
 
Jonathan

Thank you John, from reading your post I am relieved there are people that do not agree with the electronic organ concept at Crewkerne.  As previously said, we would be very happy to meet the church authorities, if they desire such a meeting.  We spend a great deal of our tiime keeping instruments in playing order where funds are limited.  Whilst we enjoy the large jobs, we believe that the small scale work we do to help churches realise their dreams and aspirations about their pipe organ is equally important and we spend a great deal of time and effort ensuring the work is of the highest quality.  Our speciality is electrical actions and tracker, partly because my training was as a communications engineer, however pneumatics do not cause us any issues either.  My Budepest trained assistant has recently completely releathered the puffers for the Compton pedal chests we are using at Astwood Bank, and absolutely beautiful hey look too.  Ferenc is meticulous about ensuring the work is of the highest order, as am I.  Therefore, work on the action a Crewkerne, whilst probably extensive, is not an onerous task.  Anyway, here's hoping they church decides to have the work done to the pipe organ, rather than use a short term stop gap, whether they choose us or any other organ builder!

Jonathan

However, to correct what I believe is a misunderstanding, this discussion, while being emotively driven by some about the church, is actually about the cost of the work to the instrument, as compared to the cost of an electronic organ.

Having been in contact with one of those members, he is fully aware of what IS going on, and still resident in the parish.

Quote from: Barry Williams on March 15, 2011, 04:00:33 PM

It seems to me that there is insufficient information available to any Board Members at present to form a reasonable view of what is going on.

My understanding is that two members of this board are very well qualified to comment on the particular instrument in question, having both been organists of the church, one also having rebuilt the organ!

Jonathan

Thanks for your comments John, I fear that too.  Unfortunately, my feeling is they have made up their mind that an electronic is the way to go, without spending much time looking at all the possibilities.  I am not going to specifically comment on the abilities of the organist, and I do not know him, but in general, electronic organs tend to be chosen where there is an issue with competant organists.  However, as I say, I do not know the gentleman, and as far as I know he is perfectly capable.  Generally the only other musical reason is because the existing organ is inadequate for the choir repertoire, surely not the case at Crewkerne.

I'm sorry to hear that it is Makin, not that I have anything against their organs, and have played a few, but it was Makin who vandalised the pipework I mentioned earlier. I already have some photographs of this, and will take some further ones once we start dismantling.  I was never impressed with the Makin installation at said church, pretty much a disaster from the outset and a far inferior organ to the instrument it replaced, a 1937 Walker!

Jonathan

Quote from: twanguitar on March 13, 2011, 12:53:44 AM
Sorry, but I think the jibe on the name of the churchwarden at Crewkerne is not worthy of any forum. No argument can be won like that, more likely lost.  Let's stop behaving like kids, can we?

Maybe a moderator worthy of the name might feel moved to delete this post.

TG

I have to agree with this.  We are all, I hope, trying to change the situation at Crewkerne for what would be considered preferable by many, retention of a playing pipe organ!  We need to work with those at the church to show this is not only possible, but relatively straightforward and no where near as expensive as they think. 

On the second point, being a member of another forum which operates stricter policies, I feel that the freedom given to posters here is important.  A little care from posters is probably a good thing, but frank, open discussion, about salient points is more important than heavy moderation to be politically correct to the nth degree.  Just my thoughts!

Jonathan

Welcome to the forum John, and thanks for your comments about Crewkerne.  As I've already more than hinted at, we would love to have a go out sorting out their problems.  Hopefully sanity will prevail!

Jonathan

Now we are some weeks past this, is there anyone on here who went and who could report back?

Jonathan

Quote from: David Pinnegar on March 11, 2011, 04:16:23 AM

Quote from: Jonathan Lane on March 11, 2011, 04:08:00 AM
We are about to acquire an organ which had the same intent in 1986 when they installed their electronic.  The elctronic organ installers trampled the Great pipes and heaped most of them in the Swell, on top of the Swell pipes.  The organ is now going.  Good for me though, as its the organ I learnt to play on!

Dear Jonathan

I don't think it would hurt here to actually name the electronic installers who did such callous damage to pipework . . .

(One of my projects recently has been to develop effective speakers to enable such an instrument to be mothballed without such risks to pipes . . .)

Best wishes

David P

As much as would like to, I think it would be better for people to work it out for themselves, needless to say, we are talking about a major manufacturer, and it was a bespoke organ.

I wish they would contact us, after all we are not very far away, and we would be able to show them what could be done, on very little money, to keep the organ in playing order and relatively good condition until further restoration work could be undertaken.  If anyone knows anyone at the church, het them to contact me on 07836 299025 or at organbuilder@jonathan-lane.org.uk ad I will be happy to arrange a visit, and we don't charge for the visit either!

Jonathan

Quote from: KB7DQH on March 09, 2011, 05:05:58 AM

At least the church has the forethought to keep the pipe organ in place until resources are made available for its restoration in future rather than scrapping it ;)

We are about to acquire an organ which had the same intent in 1986 when they installed their electronic.  The elctronic organ installers trampled the Great pipes and heaped most of them in the Swell, on top of the Swell pipes.  The organ is now going.  Good for me though, as its the organ I learnt to play on!

If you read the second link in Eric's post above, you will see some figures quoted, which frankly are purely misinformation.  Firstly to get a half decent electronic, which will last them maybe 15 years before major work, they are look at £50K plus.  Secondly, I'm not entirely sure where the figure of £75-80K comes from, if as they say the pipes and structure are sound, that means the organ needs a new electrical system.  Even if they fitted a state of the art system, this would come to about the same sum that they are quoting for the electronic organ, if they however went with a cheaper or more piecemeal option, the price would be considerably less.

The organ is described by the organist as about to fail at any time.  This is highly unlikely, unless caused by fire, flood, or earthquake (RIP our colleagues in Christchurch), as a colleague mentioned to me today 'organs in general do not have heart attacks; they merely groan with arthritis!'  I'm not against the use of electronic instruments where they are necessary, but it would seem that the church would be far better of spending £10K now on major electrical work, than spending £25-30K now on an electronic, and when that dies in ten years or so, see their bill rise to nearer the £75-80K they believe it will cost them now.

Jonathan

It may be the pipe maker attached to a particular organ builder, we find this a lot when working with older pipework.  The only way to check is look at the census if the pipes are old enough, do you have any idea where they came from?

Jonathan

Its a drawstop console, but is being heavily modified (tastefully and carefully I hasten to add) to accomodate the increase in number of drawstop knobs.
Jonathan