Organ matters - Organs matter!

It was a combination of the size of the chapel, and more importantly the size of the congregation of boisterous boys (and girls) singing loudly.  When the chapel was empty the GDB was a lovely instrument, just not fit for purpose.

Jonathan

This is an interesting question, and I too am not going to speculate or comment on the Cranleigh situation.  I haven't heard it, but played the old GDB occasionally for chapel.  The GDB whilst being a product of its time, was in fact a very good organ, however, it wasn't fit for purpose!  At the console you could hardly hear it on full organ whilst the whole school was singing.

Anyway, back to the interesting question, what is historic.  Surely historic is something that will be considered by others in the future with hindsight.  I think what Eric means is what those in other musical circles might call pastiche.  There have been a number of attempts to build historic 'pastiche' organs in the UK over the past two decades, some successful and some not so.  For me, one of Mander's other instruments, that at St Andrew Holborn, is one of their best, possibly because I passed my ARCO on it, but also because at one point I practiced on it for 3-4 hours a week and really got to know it.  It is fun to play.

But, historic to me, is really the organs being built now, to the needs of the local environment, which will survive the centuries and be held up by future generations.  Many, such as that done by Ken Tickell at Worcester will, I am sure, be looked on as major achievements.  They provided an organ which is 'fit for purpose', and consequently has improved matters no end.

Jonathan

Excellent news, and as Barry says good to hear they consider restoration 'value for money'.

Jonathan

My preference is for couplers not to be available on departmental pistons, but as Colin said, available on the generals.  However, I know this is not always the case, and I too find it confusing when it is not so, as I would consider this to be the "norm".  Musicom lets us do what we want and we can change the settings after the event if necessary.

I think in this day and age where solid state systems, often computer driven have the capacity to carry hundreds of thousands of settings, multiple levels are desirable, and consequently, general pistons can be set up to operate changes where the need for coupler registration is also evident. 

Having said this, on strange organs I almost always register by hand!

Jonathan

Thanks to Brian for sharing his considerable knowledge of pipe making, I play on some of his pipes regularly, and a delight they are.  His insight is valuable, as are the videos of Martin Pasi which are very relaxed and easy.  The manner in which he makes the pipes and discusses his approach is an ideal tool in the education of pipe makers, however Brian is quite right in saying there is nothing like the actual practice of doing it!  Terry Shires too, is a wonderful exponent of the art and when we went round his workshop was very pleased to show their work in some detail.  Thanks again to Brian, fascinating stuff!

Jonathan

An interesting discussion, and several points not addressing.

Firstly, websites.  I agree with Tony that websites take a while to set up, and even longer to learn the skills if you wish to achieve something more than basic text.  However, I also agree with Colin, that the time taken, and the skills learnt (and most people can learn them) are worth every penny of investment in money and minute in time.  Presence in the market place for us relies a great deal on our website as we are the 'new kids on the block' so to speak.  That is not to say we do not get much work by word of mouth, as we do, however most people these days here of a company and look them up on the internet.  A holding page gives the wrong message.  We operate modern business practices, and are first and foremost a commercial company that ultimately is out to make a profit.  That doesn't mean we don't take care in the musical, artistic and technical aspects of the organs we work on, new and existing, actually precisely the opposite.

On to actions.  I totally agree with Tony, I have yet to play a pneumatic action I am happy with.  A number of organs with tubular pneumatic action have been almost impossible to play.  Electro-pneumatic organ fares better, however, I used to play a Binns in the 1990's which was sluggish, unreliable and very difficult to play anything fast on.  My preferred options is always tracker (even for a house organ, which I suspect Barry Williams and I will disagree on!), but if not tracker, solid state.  Don't let pneumatics near an organ!  As for solid state's reliability, I see no issue.  One firm at least, Musicom, I'm not so sure of the others as we do not use them, uses a system of standard cards which are interchangeable and easily replaced if there is a fault.  The Musicom system is software driven, and therefore easy to maintain with a laptop!

Other electric actions over the years have proved unreliable, however, one firm produced significant and reliable actions using old fashioned technology, which in most cases still works.  That firm was Compton.  Their systems were easy to maintain, and consequently reliability was usually expected for 30-40 years before any work need be done.  Holy Trinity Hull, despite having a failing action is working on 1937 electrics, and actually remarkably large amounts of it are still working seeing it has gone more than twice its expected life!

Voicing - well, firstly, voicing is seriously objective.  Some people like FW, others like R&D, still more like Hill and others Walker.  Most organ builders had their own 'style' of voicing which to some extent gave their organs their character.  This was fine for much of the twentieth century, and often organ builders were allowed to get on with their job, you bought an organ because you liked the organ builders character and style.  This is still true, but tempered by the significant input these days from organ advisers, both diocesan and independent.  I am not sure whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I think it is both, sometimes at the same time.  We have had experience of organ advisers coming in with such a fixed idea that the desire of the church is not met, rather the view of the organ adviser, who will neither play the instrument or experience it weekly in worship.  Neither of course, will the organ builder, however, in our case, and a number of other builders, I am firstly an organist, who has worked in churches with choirs, without choirs and in cathedrals, so know what works with an organ and what doesn't.  Before everyone shouts, but doesn't that mean my own fixed ideas are foisted on the church!  Well maybe they are!, although I would argue my ideas are far from fixed, or narrow in any sense.  We as a business work to our clients desires, to enable the client to achieve what they feel is perfect for them, and if we achieve that we are delighted, if not, we do not hold ourselves to ransom over it, as sometimes the requirements of churches is almost impossible to achieve: 'We've got a space 10 foot by 6 foot, we'd like a four manual 64 speaking stop organ, with three 32's!'  Obviously fictional!

Specifically back to voicing and how organs sound, we removed an organ from a church a few years ago (to be replaced by an electronic), which was badly placed and sounded poor.  The organ was a 19th century Walker, and the pipework is very fine, and sounds superb in a good acoustic, as good as anything Walker's did during the period.  Environment and acoustics are everything, pretty much any pipework will sound good in the right environment, and excellent pipework sounds amazing!!

Apologies for the long post!

Jonathan

Actually, I would much rather have one or two beautifully voiced ranks of pipes than a large organ.  There are some stops which you can play on for ever without getting bored.  Size isn't important, but voicing is, as has been discussed elsewhere in respect of electronic organs.  Most pipework can have its voicing adjusted to make it very useful and I see no reason that this organ couldn't, even if it needed it.  I haven't heard it, as long as I know it already sounds beautiful.  The single manual Walker I played while doing my ARCO, also mentioned elsewhere sounded fantastic!

Jonathan

Quote from: Barrie Davis on June 02, 2011, 07:38:53 PM
All those options are too far from where she lives, does Peter Morris at St Peters Wolverhampton teach these days?

I never felt that when I used to fly back from Northern Ireland for lessons with AF!

Best teacher in the area is Andrew Fletcher.

Jonathan

Due to unforeseen problems with the church's electrical system, the opening recital and other June events have been psotponed, more details later.  The dedication will however go ahead on 26 June.

Best wishes,

Jonathan

Barry is absolutely right, if I were designing a house organ, well perhaps I should say, when I have designed house organs, I don't like anything over two foot and these not too loud, a bright but gentle flute is better than a stonger Fifteenth.  I take the point however that the lack of space for eight foot stops.  Perhaps though this can be avoided by the use of borrowing in the bass octave, stopped basses and tenor octave stops.  Don't forget an open 8' is only 4' at tenor C and a stopped one only 2'.

Jonathan

Quote from: Barry Williams on May 18, 2011, 05:51:36 PM

I feel that there is a market for a small, discreet but well built house organ, designed to serve those who prefer not to practise in cold churches.

You would say that Barry, you have a very nice practice instrument at home!  I agree there are often times that an electronic organ at home can be the only and best option, we have plans though to build a pipe organ at home too!  But some say I would do wouldn't I!

Jonathan

I suspect they have been quoted too much money to rebuild the organ or restore it, although I don't know.  The other option is that the current music staff are not organists and have been told an electronic is easier to play!

It looks that there would need to be money spent on it, apart from moving it, but I cannot tell from the listings, however, we would be happy to take a look.  If you wish to ring me, we can arrange something.  07836 299025

Jonathan
www.organ-builder.co.uk

I'm sure they have been told by buting an electronic the maintenance costs are zero, however, I know from the thousands that have had to be spent on relatively new electronics to keep them playing this is simply untrue.

As regards the roof, I would not do any work to the organ while any part of the roof is at risk, even if there was no risk of damp, the dirt and dust risk to the organ, even hundreds of feet away, and even if properly sealed while the work is being done, is far too severe.

As for this thread being off topic at any point, I think it has stuck pretty well to the real versus electronic argument, and the detail goes a long way to help make the case at Crewkerne.

As said before, if there was a real desire to do something, we would be happy to look and quote, but I think the PCC are blinkered on this.

A final anecdote.  When I was taking my ARCO, I lived in a little village in Dorset.  The church was 'lucky' enough to have two organs, a two manual Viscount and the old one manual, short pedalboard, Walker.  I did nearly all my practice for ARCO, Bach, Messiaen, etc., on the Walker!

Jonathan

Its an interesting point and very valid that the church seems to be pursuing this regardless of the state of the roof!

However, answering Barrie's question, and some may say I would say this as I'm a pipe organ builder, the most useful application of funds would be to repair the existing organ, and then start a fund for work in 10-20 years to completely renew the action and restore the organ fully.  The latter is a relatively expensive option, although would give the organ another 100 years (compared to an electronic, which would need replacing possibly 7 times in this period, although the frequency of replacing the electronic  every 15 years would not keep ahead of technoligical advances, just replace a worn our electronic).  The former option would be relatively cheap and a fraction of the cost of a decent electronic and last the same number of years!

Jonathan

We rarely pay more than £100 for an organ, and have often paid nothing, they are just glad to get rid of it by that point!!

Jonathan

Quote from: Barrie Davis on April 15, 2011, 12:56:56 AM
The whole thing is a minefield. I have had yet another telephone call today asking why the 2 Churches in my team will not be buying a new licence, they seem to be unable to grasp the fact that this is no longer needed. They appear to me, rightly or wrongly, just seem to be after money for the sake of it.

They're a bit like TV licensing!  'You are committing and offence and will be prosecuted.'  'We will be visitng to inspect your premises.'  - we get this all the time at the workshop, and our former cottage in Yorkshire would have hundreds of letters there every time we went, I just wanted them to call when I was there, so I could say 'Why am I breaking the law' and lead them on a merry ride before telling them there is no TV!

Jonathan

"Those who seek to keep instruments unchanged and unused do as much harm as those who alter organs for fashion."

Hear hear!

"The harm has come from mere fashion, and here I refer expecially to the 'neo-baroque' 'Positives', uncomfortably converted from Choir organs, by changing Clarinets into Tierces, for example, allegedly for the purposes of playing Baroque music adequately, and similar ill-judged alterations of whim."

This is why we have included an unenclosed choir at Astwood Bank which includes four 8' flues, a Clarinet, as well as mutations.  Although my influence is more French Romantic than Baroque!

Jonathan

The new date for the opening recital is Saturday 4 June, which will begin a month of activities celebrating the opening of the organ and the centenary of the nave.  This finishes with the dedication by the Bishop of Worcester on Sunday 26 June, and will include a children's event and choral concert.  More details will be available on our website (www.organ-builder.co.uk) which will be updated in the next few days.

Jonathan

As pleasant as they can be, I agree with Colin here.  My belief is that they would rarely be much more than an ornament.

Jonathan