Organ matters - Organs matter!

Dear David,


Please don't think that I, or for that matter anyone else, has been offended by your earlier post.

I've been in Croydon for a few days, which explains my lack of rapid response. Actually, I was quite interested by your post, and when your subsequent post appeared, I had just sat down to consider my reply.

Theology and philosophy are always interesting; especially when they refer to scientific matters.

I shall respond a.s.a.p.

Best,

MM

Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on February 18, 2012, 06:56:27 PM

Hope it finds a good new home, anyway! At any rate, the Germans and the Dutch seem to be buying redundant English organs by the dozen - they seem to particularly like Keates and Brindley & Foster organs, presumably because of the Schulze influence. Might be worth approaching a relevant contact about this, or the other two organs you've mentioned.

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That's very interesting, especially since there are almost nbo Schulze organs left in Germany.  The connection is not only with Charels Brindley, who had studied in Paulinzella with the Schulze company, but with Carl Schulze (proabably no relative) who was the first head-voicer at Brindley's after staying in England after working for Schulze. When Carl Schulze went to Albert Keats as voicer, (himself a former Brindley man),
his place was taken by another ex-Schulze voicer by the name of Ott.

All of them voiced in "the Schulze way," according to the wisdom passed down by ex-Brindley workmen, but as there are no company records, it would be difficult to prove for definite.

MM

I'vbe actually been in the Harvard Memorial Church, and played the old Fisk organ they've just taken out to make way for the new one.

The instrument was fairly new at the time, but at least I am able to say that my lifespan has already exceeded that of a tracker-organ.

MM

I am quite unable to sleep in contemplation of what, precisely, an organ can do to a cat, and what a cat can do to an organ.

I suspect that an organ is in the greatest danger, but I can't quite work out why this should be, but knowing what a small kitten can do to a stair-carpet....... :D

MM

With great sadness, I have learned of the death of Heinz Wunderlich on March 10th, at the age of 92.

I'm sure more will follow, but briefly, Heinz Wunderlich ("Heinzy" to his friends and many pupils) was perhaps the greatest exponent of Reger's organ-music; having a direct link with Reger and Karl Straube, and the author of many definitive recordings of the master's works.

It is a personal loss to me, for Wunderlich was the organist who, along with Germani, inspired me to take an interest in the music of Max Reger, which led to a lifelong reverence and enjoyment of it; both from the playing and listening points of view.

Undoubtedly, all good and even great things must come to an end, and we may only rejoice in Heinz Wunderlich's life and art, which will live on through his many recordings.

A poignant moment indeed, and the loss of a supreme artist.

The following link gives details of his life and work, as well as a list of his many organ compositions:-

http://www.thediapason.com/Heinz-Wunderlich-at-90-article10175


May he rest in peace.

Quote from: David Pinnegar on March 13, 2012, 02:48:17 PM

Quote from: MusingMuso on March 11, 2012, 10:19:33 PM
I wonder if agnosticism, rather than being neither one thing nor the other, isn't a creative process, which embraces belief, faith, science and progressive thinking?

It is a way of thinking which enables the Christian ethic to be inclusive rather than exclusive, . . .

Upon only a quick perusal of your post one realises great depth to that to which you are drawing our attention . . . and perhaps rather deeper than be absorbed on a quick read.

However, although one might view agnosticism as a way of thinking and one which is beneficial in being inclusively Christian, perhaps it might be wide of the mark in missing the beauty of Christianity not merely as a way of thinking but as a way of life. If Christ's two commandments to love thy "all that is" and to "love thy neighbour as thyself" are taken as Christianity with nothing more and nothing less, then such a way of life is so much more than merely a way of thinking.
A way of thinking can lead perhaps merely to passivism whilst a way of life requires one to go out of one's way, and to cross that road to the aid of the ailing traveller, there being a beauty in being in the active rather than merely the passive as the bystander, the spectator, merely watching as real life passes you by.
Best wishes

David P

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What a refreshing answer David!

You are absolutely right, and if you and I were to meet, you would soon realise that one of my great heroes is Dietrich Beonhoffer.  He didn't write his theological work, "The cost of discpleship" for nothing, and his faith  ultimately led to his execution by the Nazis.

I think I used the words of Vaclac Havel to describe the difference between that which is sterile and dogmatic, and that which is vibrant and inspirational; at the same time accepting scientific progress as part of the wider kingdom, the growth of understanding and, most importantly, the faith to recognise  the perpetual ascendency of God from one generation to another.....truly a living, loving and dynamic church rather than merely a dogmatic, traditional, historic or ritualistic one.


MM

Tony is right, but my undertsanding and use of the term is slightly different, if substantially the same. (This doesn't mean that I may be using the term incorrectly).

If we had a Schulze organ handy, it would be easy to demonstrate, but basically, the Great Organ is totally dominant and usually very loud. (Also a feature of Arthur Harrison organs). The Swell organ is next in loudness, but quite underpowered as compared with, (for example), a Fr.Willis organ. The Choir Organ would often be to the rear of the instrument and voiced quietly, and at Armley, the fourth Echo manual was originally buried beaneth and behind the Great and Swell, with the effect that it was extremely delicate if not almost unaudible.

This was typical of the earlier German romantic organs built by Schulze and others, and what it means in practical terms is what Tony states: that of vivid tonal dynamic contrasts, but with little build-up assisted by an assertive Swell organ in a good box.

In fact, playing Reger is almost an impossibility on a Schulze organ, which takes many by surprise.

In essence, the Schulze amd Brindley style was soon out of date, as music became ever more expressive.

So to recap, it is my use of the term which translates as Great ff, Swell mf and Choir pp, with very little swell expression being possible in such a way that it permits a gradual build-up of power.

I hope that makes sense, but if anyone knows a diferent term other than "terraced dynamics," I would be happily corrected.

MM

I think you have to differentiate between the set-combinations drawstops and the associated "red-cross" cancel, and the "Brindgradus," which was effectively a swell-pedal style crescendo, but very similar in operation to the German rollschweller.

There is no doubt that Brindley & Foster took pneumatic actions to the n'th degree, but they were reliable enough. The problems arose when the time came to re-build them.

Interestingly, not only did John Compton work for the company prior to setting up on his own, so too did Reginald Whitworth, who tried to persuade Brindley the 2nd and possibly Foster, to use electro-pneumatic actions.

The change in fashion was rapid, and with terraced dynamics in addition to penumatic action, B & F were very quickly left high and dry: effectively on the rocks financially around 1920, (no doubt struggling to find skilled tradesmen after WW1). They staggered on for awhile, but the end was inevitable really.

Quite close to me is a still functioning "Brindgradus" organ by B & F, and the last time I played it for wedding, it was in fine voice and with everything still working.

MM

I'm glad that someone else appreciates the work of Charles Brindley, and I'm sure it is fairly common knowledge that he was not only apprencticed to Schulze in Germany, but assisted Schulze in the building and re-building of the great Schulze organs at Armley and Doncaster; even to the extent that he did some of the voicing.

I shall repeat something I mentioned on another forum, which concerns the loss of one of the truly great northern organs, built by Brindley & Foster, in what was the complete, (rather than divided) Centenary Methodist Church, Dewsbury, W Yorks.

The Great organ was a virtual copy of the Great Organ at St Bart's, Armley, and to hear it ring around the chapel was to hear something very special indeed, and by the hand of an English builder who had clearly learned how to produce the "canned lightning" effect of Schulze.

http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N04839

Not many Brindley organ survive from this period, but a few do, and they are remarkable for their boldness and clarity.

What a tragedy that these Anglo-German organs fell out of fashion, and were often re-built beyond recognition or more often, scrapped altogether.

MM

As this is a new category, I thought it best to quote the words of a very remarkable writer, poet and politician. Although actually talking about the business of politics in a fair, open and free democracy, the late President of the Czech Republic, Vaclav Harvel, seems to have used words which could so equally apply to agnosticism. Below are a few comments lifted from a speech he gave in Budapest, on June 24th, 1999.



-------------------------------------------------------------------


....how can we recognize the moment when a set of living ideas degenerates into an ideology?


How can we recognize when principles, opinions and hopes begin to petrify into a rigid mass of dogma, precepts and conceptual stereotypes?Where should we look for guidance? How can we discern the dividing lines?

There are no exact directions. There are probably no directions at all. The only things that I am able to recommend at this moment are: a sense of humour; an ability to see the ridiculous and the absurd dimensions of things; an ability to laugh about others as well as about ourselves; a sense of irony; and, of everything that invites parody in this world. In other words: rising above things, or looking at them from a distance; sensibility to the hidden presence of all the more dangerous types of conceit in others, as well as in ourselves; good cheer; an unostentatious certainty of the meaning of things; gratitude for the gift of life and courage to assume responsibility for it; and, a vigilant mind.

Those who have not lost the ability to recognize that which is laughable in themselves, or their own nothingness, are not arrogant, nor are they enemies of an Open Society.

Its enemy is a person with a fiercely serious countenance and burning eyes.

Vaclav Havel

======================


What marvellous and acute perception the late president posessed.

I wonder if agnosticism, rather than being neither one thing nor the other, isn't a creative process, which embraces belief, faith, science and progressive thinking?

It is a way of thinking which enables the Christian ethic to be inclusive rather than exclusive, but at the same time, very aware of the things the late President of the Czech Republic warned us of.

I think I like the idea of a thinking man's Jesus.

Quote from: David Drinkell on March 11, 2012, 08:01:54 PM


Muso mentioned Brindleys - Kilmore Cathedral, Co. Cavan, has an early small 3m. The Great (16.8.8.8.4.II.IV.8) is quite terrifyingly huge.  The rest is nowhere near it, but not feeble.  I also wonder if it's time to consider extension organs again.  Compton could work wonders, but the system was brought into disrepute by so many cowboys who did everything on the ultra-cheap.  If a reputable builder really took trouble, I think something excellent could result.

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I suspect that David has hit the nail on the head concerning the eventual fall from grace of Brindley & Foster organs, which apart from a certain over-complexity and dogged reliance on pneumatic actions, really didn't move with the times tonally, in spite of slightly larger flutes and a few passing nods in the direction of the orchestral tendency after the turn of the 19th century. Essentially, they continued to build organs with terraced dynamics; very much in the Schulze style, which makes much of the repertoire, (including late German romantic music), almost impossible to play convincingly.

As for a revival in extension organs, I quite agree, because Compton showed what could be done, and 5 or 6 ranks of real pipes is far more musically natural in sound to anything electronic: not that I don't admire the progress made with modern digital organs and systems such as "Hauptwerk."

MM

I don't think we need to split the thread, but perhaps we should recognise that the small organ is a specific art-form all it's own, and not very many achieve greatness.

On my travels to the Netherlands, I am often surprised and delighted to hear not one, but two or even three organs, at recitals; usually a smallish two manual in the choir and a much larger organ in the west gallery.

Notable examples which I have played are those at the Laurenskerk, Rotterdam; Doesburg Cathedral, the Martinikerk Groningen and, of course, the VERY old restored instrument at the Grotekerk, Haarlem. (There are also one or two other remarkable small organs in Haarlem).

I recall with special delight a concert at Doesburg Cathedral, and the absolute contrast between the big romantic Walcker organ in the west gallery, (on which was played various Straube editions of Bach), and the beautiful and rather chirpy two manual by Flentrop, on which was heard a particularly well performed Hinedmith Sonata. I didn't feel that either of the organs upstaged the other; both being very beautiful in their own rights, and of course, speaking into the usually generous acoustic of your average Netherlands cathedral church.

Another special delight was to play the little Snetzler in the chapel of Eton College, as well as the two manual organ in the college hall.

In my experience, the really successful small organ has that elusive quality of tonal integrity, which isn't always apparent in larger instruments, and that same integrity can be stylictically varied; as with the Flentrop neo-baroque instrumentat Doesburg, and the sweet little Snatzler at Eton.

I've come across a few small Fr Willis organs which are also delightful, and one or two old Charles Brindley organs with a boldness and character which punch far above their weight.

So make no mistake, the small organ is a special art-form which needs very careful handling and voicing if it is to be a success.

Of course, we could also include in the successful small organ stakes, those very fine extension organs by John Compton, which often contain no more than 5 opr 6 extended ranks, yet manage to sound ten times bigger.
MM

With all respect, how on earth did we manage to get from minimalist organs to Bristol Cathedral and Redcliffe?   :o

( I prefer the Colston Hall organ to either of them, by the way).

MM

This is pathetic!

For  starters, it needs far more quints. Then it needs at least sub, unison and octave tierces, (to add a little gravity) and then, as the crowning piece de resistance one of those untuned Polish Cymbals which sound like a sheet of falling icicles.

Pah!

You're just a pseudo sensualist, like those who smoke their opium through water!   8)

MM

I hate talking about myself, but for once, I feel the need to do so as a way of illustrating a point.

At school, I had enormous learning problems, possibly beacuse I was extremely bored most of the time, and concentration was virtually impossible as a consequence. Things just didn't move fast enough for me. Naturally, the teachers tied to bully me, (it was  fairly brutal Grammmar School of the old kind), and when I fled at 15, it was with a crushing sense of relief.

I soon found employment in various things over the span of a few years, which included organ-building and engineering, as well as teaching myself how to mend cars and work on engines.

This is the background, and even though I did eventualy go back to study and complete a music degree, as well as teach myself to play the organ, I suppose that what emerged was someone with a fairly multi-faceted array of experience and abilities.

My brother, who is a retired university research officer/senior lecturer in engineering, told me something the other week which rocked me on my heels.

"Do you know," he said, "you probably know more about engineering than the graduates of to-day."

What a scary thought!!

It demonstrates, I think, the importance of "having a go" at things at the practical level, because you soon run up against the limitations, and then feel the need to improve upon one's knowledge at the theoretical level.

Diverging slightly, I vivdly recall sitting around a dinner table with three senior designers/aeronautical engineers who had worked on "Concorde" especially. Although the conversation flew a bit above my head a lot of the time, it was fun to listen and learn, but I did pose the question about how they got started as youngsters.

One replied, "Oh! Airfix models."

Another said, "Meccano!"

The third said, "We had a good engineering department at my grammar school."

The fact is David, we never know where things are going or to where they may lead when we start to take an interest in something, and the ability to just "play around" with things in almost a schoolboy way is, I feel sure, at the root of so many successful people.

As for health & safety, I recall being 15 and working in organ-building.

As I climbed 30ft up a ladder at Huddersfield Town Hall, a head popped out from the Great windchest, and spoke the immortal words, "Don't fall lad; I'm too old to catch you."

Writing books, you say?

Well, I've written one about very advanced driving, I'm revising a very serious but equally hilarious novel about a boy who died of a drugs overdose at the age of 16, and THEN I may get around to writing something about organs.

Best, MM

Well, if you want small, try the organ I play, at St Joseph's RC church, Ingrow, Keighley, W Yorks.


Hauptwerk


Principal              8
Rohrflute             8
Octave                4
Sesquialtera        II rks  (12:17)
Mixture               IV    (15:19:22:26)



Brustwerk


Gedact                 8
Koppel Flute        4
Principal               2
Quint                   1.1/3


Pedal

Bordun                 16
Fagot                   16


Bw - Hw
Bw-Ped
Hw-Ped


That's it!

The interesting thing is, that various organists have played a number of surprising organ-works in recital which wouldn't normally be considered right for the instrument.

Here is a list:-

Jonathan Bielby -  Liszt BACH
Francis Jackson - Vierne Finale Symph. no 1
Philip Tordoff - Mendelssohn/Rheinberger
Myself - Reger & Reubke

The list goes on, though nowadays, recitals would not attract much support.

The secret of the organ is the acoustic, allied to some superb voicing from Denis Thurlow. A silvery terz chorus and extremely beautiful flutes make this a very flexible instrument indeed, which in the absolutely perfect acoustic ambience, produces an effect not dissimilar to the Bavokerk orgel in Haarlem, but with less variety naturally.

Would I change anything?

Yes....I would get rid of the Quint 1.1/3, which really isn't necessary with a bright 2ft Principal. A 2ft Blockflute would be a nice alternative, and permit a nice contrast in Trio Sonatas, rather than an unrelentingly bright 2ft Principal chorus. 8.4.2.2 would be nice.

Irrespective of any beliefs in divinity, Jesus was rather more than a nice Jewish boy with a hammer. However, the important thing is that he was born Jewish and died Jewish, which may come as an uncomfortable truth to many. It begs the question as to whether Jesus ever intended to start a new religion, which of course happened long after his death. I would therefore suggest that even his followers would have regarded him as a Jew first and foremost. However, I think we are failing to make the distinction between belief and faith, which are not interchangeable. For instance, I believe that the moon may be made of cheese, but would I have the faith to travel there without a pot-noodle in my pocket?

Surely, it is the LIVING and ONGOING truth of Jesus which really matters, for were it otherwise, he would just have been another middle-eastern martyr among many.

We must ask ourselves if those truthes are valid to-day, and of course, they are; across a whole spectrum of beliefs and even religions.

I confess to being a petrol-head, as well as a diesel head; my favourite hobby being that of driving very large trucks. I even get paid to do it, which is just marvellous.

You're probably right about the Laguna Turbo. It's a complicated beast; not least electronically, which is where many of the problems occur.

I did, of course, mean Richard Dawkins. I'm surprised that I got it wrong, but I've now reached the age when I can put lapses of memory down to almost anything; from tiredness to full-blown dementia.

Yes, the Compton story is not an easy one; not least because all the company records perished in a fire. As I've stated elsewhere, it is a story of such complexity and significance, it possibly needs to either be co-authored or written to include the acknowledged input of electronic and electrical specialists. All the knowledge is there, but it needs to be combined into a readable entity, but not in the usual "time-line" style of organ-building biography and history. We're gently working towards it, and I sit on a huge pile of information.

I haven't yet got the Richard Hills CD, but I will in due course. Richard is a fine player, and as someone who enjoys both the light and classical aspects of organ-playing, I hold him in very high regard. I'm not sure how he fits in with or copes with the snobbery and inverted snobbery of the dual establishment, but ultimately, he has the last laugh; being capable of doing what most others cannot.

Of course, there were some interesting people who preceded him....Quentin MacLean, Osborne Peasgood, Norman Cocker, Dr.Toothill and numerous others, including a certain French organist by the name of Marcel Dupre.

I'm being unusually scribic to-day; possibly because I've nothing better to do. However, this is a question I have often pondered, in preparation for the day that I win the lottery.

I wouldn't buy big cars and a noble pile, (apologies for that to Mr P), but I would indulge myself in a Caterham 7 and possibly kill myself shortly after.

If I survived the Caterham 7 experience, I think I would buy a redundant mill or factory, and turn it into a multiple craft workshop, where vital skills could be kept alive, where young people could take pride in learning the skills, and where things of beauty and quality could be made for posterity.

It could be run in such a way that a "collective" approach would reduce costs to a bare minimum: no rent, but a reasonable and proportional contribution to day to day operating costs and maintenance. This would be such a vital and welcome approach to encouraging craft industries to start-up and develop, and if that included the building or restoration of pipe organs, I would be entirely happy with that. (I think I would also include the building of quality electronic organs, which has a long and distinguished history in the UK, as well as a certain marketing potential).

Having grown up in an industrial northern town, I know how important skills and passionate interests are, and my heart bleeds for the kids of to-day, who seem to semi-exist in a dull world, where the excitement of drugs, casual sex and mindless pop-music seem to tbe their only outlet. There is so much energy which is going to waste, and without opportunity, these youngsters will never realise their own potential or be able to make much of a contribution to the long-term well-being of society.

Enthusiasm and acquired skills are the building blocks of lives and societies, and we need more, not less.

For those of a straight, male disposition, might I suggest the following?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjFN5P0m6UE

  :P

I'm sorry if the only physical structure I could think of with only two corners was a urinal; though it has to be said that circular ones have none. I once worked in a swish office which had three corners; the building being a triangular one based on the idea of a Bedhuin
tent. It was lovely, but it did mean that the unfortunate cleaning-lady had to clean the corners prostrate, using just the nozzle of the vacuum cleaner. Corners are clearly more than turning points, I think.

Apologies if I credited Boenhoffer with an afterlife. He died over 70 years ago!

Now to answer the points raised in the replies, I am not very shocking by and large, unless you capture me trying to change a Renault Laguna cam-belt, when the language, (and my knuckles), turn an interesting shade of blue-purple very quickly.

Agnosticism is not, by its very nature, a belief system, but what it importantly reflects is the absolute fact that none of us know very much at all about almost anything. It is therefore a very useful "corner" in which to stand, for it permits us to acknowledge the fact
that we are largely ignorant, without being fearful of it. In essence, there is no such thing as provable belief or absolute faith, and the agnostic can therefore enjoy the luxury of admitting and proclaiming their limitations with the simple words, "I don't know." If we pretend otherwise, we are fooling ourselves and those around us.

Now it's actually quite interesting to contemplate how an atheist can have faith in Jesus, (or anything/anyone else), but then fail to believe that the said person ever existed.

Would Stephen Dawkin deny the goodness, the decency, the humility, the care, the love and the commitment of Jesus?

Of course he wouldn't, even if Jesus was only a concept or a figment of religious imagination.

That, in a nutshell, is the difference between faith and belief; faith being altogether more down to earth and practical....in fact, the very essence of Christology...."In imitato."

In reply to Tony Newham's assertion that there is evidence for the existence of Jesus, this is quite true, but there is far greater evidence to suggest that Adolf Hitler also existed, and actually, this has nothing whatsoever to do with faith, unless one happens to wear either a dog-collar or a swastika.

The real challenge of religion is in the "here and now," (to quote Boenhoffer), and it may be that ridding religion of absurdly speculative beliefs may benefit the process of faith.....what Boenhoffer summed up as "religionless Christianity."

This, I feel, is exactly why the atheist, the agnostic and the believer are able to share a common faith, but necessarily common beliefs.

Isn't that an exciting prospect?


PS: I saw a man with white hair and heard a mellow sound.

At first I thought it must be God and the voice of angels, but as I'm not ready to die just yet, it was quite a relief when it turned out to be John Leeming working on the Southampton Compton. My regards to him also...