Hello all. I read with interest that the DofM job at St Peter's Ruthin is up for grabs: anyone not intimately acquainted with the organ should have a listen to this: http://www.willis-organs.com/music/audio/bach.mp3 (http://www.willis-organs.com/music/audio/bach.mp3). The organ is by Wadsworth of Manchester and has thirty-two speaking stops spread over four manuals and pedals. Its specification can be found at http://www.willis-organs.com/ruthin_general.html (http://www.willis-organs.com/ruthin_general.html).
This has given me an idea for a perhaps slightly pointless stoplist-based competition for an as yet undecided prize. I won't restrict you to an organ quite so small as Ruthin but it can't be too huge. Who's going to judge this? I want this to be fair, so if I end up as the judge (which would seem daft considering my playing of the organ is confined to inexpert nurdling, I'm not an organist), my spec will be ineligible to win. If anyone else wishes to come up with a very similar one, that's for them to decide.
Given the opportunity to design an organ of up to fifty-five ranks (and let us assume four manuals, though a particularly good 3- or even 5-manual specification should also be given the praise deserved), for liturgical and concert use in a large parish church or small cathedral/collegiate foundation, what would you design? I'll allow any amount of extension on the Pedal department, and duplexing of stops from the manuals to the pedals (or even between manuals) is permitted. Such duplexing must be obviously useful and not just a case of theatre-organ style 'let's have everything everywhere' (which is fine for theatre organs, just not here). Don't take it as an opportunity to design a huge Compton-style unit organ either! The manuals must be almost entirely straight. I assume that the home for this putative organ will not have space for a full-length 32', but feel free to include one if you are thinking of a specific place which does have the space. Make as much or as little of it as you want enclosed.
Here's my scheme FWIW. It's actually got five manuals, though one only has one stop. The high-pressure chorus reeds (and the Tuba) can be imagined to be in Father Willis style (once described to me as being able to "scorch through solid steel at a hundred yards"): the diapason choruses and flutes after Norman & Beard, 1902 (the year they had Thomas Lewis on the staff), so quite Schulzian. The Swell and Solo strings would be quite American in style, reflecting Hope-Jones' influence: those on the Choir more gentle and English. Enclosures abound, including a double enclosure for the Swell and the Bombarde, controlled by one designated expression pedal : there's quite a bit of duplexing too, as much as I feel comfortable with. Electro-pneumatic action is a given. The music desk could be folded away (on to the top of the console) to reveal a big touchscreen interface with full Sibelius and MIDI compatibility: you could load a MIDI file onto the system, convert it in Sibelius in moments and, through the organ's MIDI record + playback facility, have it do your page-turns automatically, or on the pressing of the right hand end of the screen by the player or pageturner. It could, potentially, even interact with the stop action to perform all your registration changes. The technology is all there, I just need someone to get the various parts of it all together!
Pedal:
Contra Bass 32' (independent quint rank in Choir box for bottom 8, from Bourdon otherwise)
Open Wood 16' (in Solo box)
Open Metal 16' (Great)
Violone 16' (Solo)
Bourdon 16' (in Choir box)
Quintaton 16' (Choir)
Octave (from Open Metal)
Violoncello (from Violone)
Bass Flute 8' (ext. Bourdon)
Octave Flute 4' (ditto)
Contra Bombarde 32' (ext.16', half-length bottom 8)
Contra Bassoon 32' (Swell)
Bombarde 16' (whole rank on 10" wind, in Solo box)
Bassoon 16' (Swell)
Trumpet 8' (ext. Bombarde)
Clarion 4' (ditto)
Choir (enclosed)
Quintaton 16'
Open Diapason 8'
Dulciana 8'
Vox Angelica 8'
Lieblich Gedact 8'
Principal 4'
Rohr Flute 4'
Nasard 2 2/3
Gemshorn 2
Tierce 1 3/5
Bass Clarinet 16' (Solo)
Corno di Bassetto 8' (Solo)
Orchestral Oboe 8' (Solo)
Great
Contra Bass 32' (resultant, quint rank from Pedal, rest from DOD)
Double Open Diapason 16'
Open Diapason I 8' (Solo)
Open Diapason II 8'
Wald Flute 8'
Principal 4'
Wald Flute 4'
Fifteenth 2'
Mixture IV (19.22.26.29)
Contra Tromba 16' (Solo)
Tromba 8' (Solo)
Clarion 4' (Solo)
Tuba Magna 8' (Bombarde)
Swell
Double Claribel Flute 16'
Open Diapason 8'
Claribel Flute 8'
Viole de Gambe 8' *
Voix Celeste 8' *
Principal 4'
Hohl Flute 4'
Flageolet 2'
Quint Mixture III 15.19.22
Tierce Mixture IV 15.17.19.22 (from Quint mixture)
Contra Bassoon 32' (Ext.16', half length bottom 8)
Bassoon 16'
Oboe 8'
Vox Humana 8' *
Contra Posaune 16' (7" w.p.) *
Harmonic Trumpet 8' (7" w.p.) *
Harmonic Clarion 4' (7" w.p.) *
* = in second enclosure inside main enclosure
Solo
Contre Viole 16'
Open Diapason 8' (leathered, 6" wind)
Viole d'Orchestre 8'
Viole Celeste 8'
Harmonic Flute 8'
Harmonic Flute 4'
Harmonic Piccolo 2'
Bass Clarinet 16' (ext.8')
Corno di Bassetto 8'
Orchestral Oboe 8'
Contra Tromba 16' (10" w.p.)
Tromba 8' (10" w.p.)
Clarion 4' (10" w.p.)
Bombarde (enclosed in own box inside Solo box)
Tuba Magna 8' (15" w.p.)
The manual 32s' are placed in the scheme to give a certain gravitas (in the case of the Great) and extra growl (in the Swell) without resorting to sub-octave couplers, with the muddying they can bring. Superoctave couplers are taken as read, as are tremulants to the Choir, Swell and Solo. Would it be cheating in my own competition to add a set of chimes and/or a glockenspiel? Ruthin, while much smaller than this, has its Clochettes...
So, a remarkably generous 73-stop specification for 50 straight ranks and five extended ones, giving a wide range of tonal colours, immense power and almost endless expressive capability. I can think of a home for it, in a church of my acquaintance whose current organ, of similar size, looks and sounds (purely in my personal opinion, unless anyone happens to share it) like it came from IKEA. I'll say no more!
Hi
I'm not offering any "paper" designs. not least because it's a waste of time without an idea of budget and building! But I would say that the Ruthin organ is a very interesting beast. The spec is somewhat idiosyncratic (to say the least) - no thumb pistons (there's not enough space between the manuals), and very few inter-manual couplers! It was designed by Kendrick Pyne as a concert organ, based on some French ideas, but heavily filtered through a provincial English organ builder! I was able to spend a morning playing the organ shortly after Willis installed it at Ruthin, and I have to say that, despite it's somewhat strange spec, it works, and it's one of my all-time favourite organs. I'd happily live with it! I revisited it in 2010, when it was one of 3 very diverse instruments visited by the Bradford Organists' Association on our annual trip - the others being a neo-baroque job by, interestingly, Rushworth & Dreaper in Mold, and the 3 man Binns is St Werberger's Chester (which for me personally, although a pleasant enough instrument, was the least interesting of the three - but then I HATE detached consoles!) I played all 3 - Ruthin came over well with the famous Daquin Noel (in tribute to its French inspiration).
Ruthin is well worth a visit. (There's also a nice Harmonium in the church, that has been used with the Willis for French works for choir & 2 organs).
Every Blessing
Tony
Well, let's assume you get a very generous sponsor for a specific building which could do with an organ of this sort of size...
I think your example demonstrates there is no such thing as a 'smallish' 4 manual organ.
Much more satisfying is a sensitively restored historic instrument, whether a straightforward transplant or something as drastic as Tony's example. I see nothing wrong with 'idiosyncratic'. Blandness is certainly a worse option. It looks as if the result at Ruthin has conserved all that was considered conservable whilst at the same time functioning as an attractive and interesting instrument.
Simon.
Quote from: ComptonNewbie on February 22, 2012, 09:49:58 PM
I think your example demonstrates there is no such thing as a 'smallish' 4 manual organ.
Much more satisfying is a sensitively restored historic instrument, whether a straightforward transplant or something as drastic as Tony's example. I see nothing wrong with 'idiosyncratic'. Blandness is certainly a worse option. It looks as if the result at Ruthin has conserved all that was considered conservable whilst at the same time functioning as an attractive and interesting instrument.
Simon.
I beg to differ.
Tony makes a valid point: without knowing something of the size, acoustic properties and other details of an instrument's proposed home, any scheme is, in a sense, meaningless.
However, it can be both amusing and a good exercise to draw up a basic stop-list.
My own scheme is rather smaller, but contains most of the 'must-have' stops, together with one or two 'desirables'. At thirty-five speaking stops, it is considerably smaller than the FHW at Truro Cathedral.
PEDAL ORGAN
Contra Bourdon 32
Open Diapason Metal 16
Sub Bass 16
Violoncello (W+M) 8
Grand Bombarde (W) 16
Choir to Pedal
Great to Pedal
Swell to Pedal
Solo to Pedal
Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled
CHOIR ORGAN
(Unenclosed)
Viola 8
Rohr Flöte 8
Suabe Flöte 4
Cor Anglais 8
Swell to Choir
Solo to Choir
GREAT ORGAN
Double Diapason (W+M) 16
Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Harmonic Flute 8
Cone Gamba 8
Octave 4
Wald Flöte 4
Super Octave 2
Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV
Contra Posaune 16
Trumpet 8
Great Reeds on Choir
Choir to Great
Swell to Great
Solo to Great
SWELL ORGAN
Quintatön 16
Open Diapason 8
Flauto Traverso 8
Viole de Gambe 8
Voix Célestes (CC) 8
Geigen Principal 4
Mixture (15-19-22) III
Hautboy 8
Tremulant
Contra Fagotto 16
Cornopean 8
Clarion 4
Sub Octave
Unison Off
Octave
SOLO ORGAN
(Enclosed)
Concert Flute 4
Flageolet 2
Corno di Bassetto 8
Tremulant
(Unenclosed)
Grand Ophicleide 8
Sub Octave
Octave
Which, Sean, is exactly the scheme you posted on the Mander forum a little while ago! I'd take issue with it for two reasons - one, no Great Clarion? Two, no Swell Vox Humana? Both are surely essential for a large amount of repertoire... Also, no mutation? That Quintaton needs a Nazard and a Doublette to go with it for quite a bit of Messiaen - but then you'd need a string and an undulant on a separate manual.
Pedal
Contra Bourdon 32
Open Diapason Metal 16
Sub Bass 16
Violoncello (W+M) 8
Grand Bombarde (W) 16
Choir
Quintatön 16
Salicional 8
Vox Angelica 8
Rohr Flöte 8
Suabe Flöte 4
Nasard 2 2/3
Flageolet 2
Cor Anglais 8
Great
Double Diapason 16
Large Open Diapason 8
Small Open Diapason 8
Violoncello 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Flauto Traverso 8
Octave 4
Wald Flöte 4
Super Octave 2
Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV
Contra Posaune 16
Posaune 8
Clarion 4
Swell
Lieblich Bourdon 16
Open Diapason 8
Viole de Gambe 8
Voix Célestes 8
Lieblich Gedact
Principal 4
Lieblich Flute 4
Flageolet 2
Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV
Hautboy 8
Vox Humana 8
Contra Fagotto 16
Cornopean 8
Clarion 4
Solo
Harmonic Flute 8
Harmonic Flute 4
Harmonic Piccolo 2
Corno di Bassetto 8
Grand Ophicleide 8
That addresses, I think, a few of the weaknesses of PCND's scheme, and one of my own: now there are independent 2fts on all four manuals of PCND's organ, and the Swell Mixture is identical to the Great one (a weakness with both of them). Also, I demand more than one O.D. on the Great! ;D
It is, however, bigger than PCND's organ by some ten speaking stops and eleven ranks...
These extra ranks which you mention may well be desirable - but the idea was surely to produce a useful design, but with a limited size. Your second scheme is still quite large.
Incidentally, I was aware I had posted this before, elsewhere.
Hi
4 Manuals 26 speaking stops - and another very nice instrument that I've played - although not for as long as Ruthin. And it's tracker action - and a very light action at that.
Every Blessing
Tony
Tony, I don't see a spec or link - or is that just because I'm on my phone?
I recall that there was once a 4/20 Hope-Jones (built by Hele in 1900) in the old vicarage at Ewell, but the vicarage is now part of a school and I don't think the organ is still there. It shared the house with an Italian Baroque organ which later shared house-room with Hampton School's Collins under Sheila Lawrence's ownership. Regular readers will also recall me mentioning the parish church's magnificent 3/39 Father Willis...amongst Mum's predecessors there were William Harris (on the previous Willis, destroyed by fire in 1973) and William Tansor (spelling?), writer of the hymn tune 'Epsom' (the town next to Ewell), who worked in the old pre-1848 church (of whose musicmaking/possible organ possession nothing is known, and of which only the tower remains, a new church having been built on a new site adjacent). I digress!
I do remember reading on the NPOR of a four-manual organ in an academic establishment with about seven speaking stops - it was Victorian but I'm sure it survives somewhere. I cannot, however, recall where it was!
Hi
The spec for Girton College is definitely on NPOR - or at least it was this morning when I looked it up to post the link!
I doubt that the Compton house organ is still in situ - house organs seem to rarely survive the death/removal/loss of interest (delete as appropriate) of their owners - but it may well have gone somewhere else - I don't know, and have no easy way of checking unless there's an NPOR survey - it would take too long to wade through all my organ books and magazines - and still maybe not come up with an answer.
Every Blessing
Tony
Hi
Girton College is certainly on NPOR, what a complete scheme it is, I would very much like to hear and see it one day.
I agree with you Tony house organs rarely survive when the houses are sold on. I can remember a 3rank Compton in Lapal House Halesowen, it was a typical example of their small extension organs but it made a nice sound, it was scrapped as far as I know when the house became a Nursing Home.
Best wishes
Barrie
Hi
A visit to hear & play the Girton organ was the "bait" to tempt NPOR editors to our first group meeting a few years back.
It's a fascinating instrument - well worth a visit if you can arrange it. It shows just how light tracker action can be - I gather that the organ scholars that use it for practise for performances elsewhere often end up coupling manuals together to increase the key resistance a bit! I(t needs a bit of concentration in that the manuals are arranged French style, with the "Great" on the lowest keyboard, unlike Ruthin, which despite the French influences on the design, has the normal English keyboard layout.
Every Blessing
Tony
The organ to which I referred was not by Compton, but by Robert Hope-Jones in collaboration with Hele. The other organ to which I referred was definitely not Girton either, but a Victorian organ of a mere seven or so speaking stops.
Are you perhaps thinking of the very small three manual organ which Bonavia Hunt designed and Smith & Foskett built for the Victoria College of Music and which now resides at Worth Matravers on Dorset?
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N10170
I don't know, maybe I was, but I remember a B&W/sepia photograph of something which looked rather different to that. I seem to recall two pipe-rack fronts fitted into a corner of a room.
Then, of course, there was Arthur Harrison's clever enlargement of the 'Sutton' organ at Jesus College, Cambridge.
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N05211
The old Great and Choir became Choir and Echo respectively and Harrison added a new Great, Swell and Pedal. I've often thought that this was interesting enough to have been retained, especially if the old console could have been reinstated with its tracker action and the Harrison console electrified to control both parts of the organ.
And it would have been nice if Kuhn had been bothered for one moment to actually do some research on Victorian Gothic organ-cases, especially those of Revd. Sutton and AWN Pugin, instead of producing that asymmetric IKEA pastiche of the old organ's case... it's a lovely organ otherwise but I wish it didn't look like it did. Also, 2/33 is too small for that building - my 4/55 scheme would have been by no means too large!
What happened to the rather short-lived 4-manual Norman & Beard at Jesus, by the way? No-one has ever been able to explain to me why it had such a short life, or what became of it. I've a feeling I once read an organ spec which attributed some secondhand pipework to that organ, but cannot for the life of me remember where said organ was... though that may be down to the fact that I am a little the worse for wear. My forefathers called what is now known as whisky uisge beatha, meaning water of life. Personally, I don't believe them - a wee dram of Talisker (admittedly on top of a mealtime pint of strong cider) has been doing peculiar things to my head for the last three hours...
Hi
I wouldn't be too quick to blame the organ builder - there are often architects and others involved in case design!
As to the 4 man at Jesus College, we were told (on a Cambridge Organists' Assoc visit some years ago) that it was in totally the wrong place to accompany the choir.
Every Blessing
Tony
As one who originally planned to study architecture, just don't get me going on architects (or the Cambridge school of architecture) these days! Suffice to say, I wish Le Corbusier, Richard Rogers, Norman Foster et al had all chosen far less influential careers...
As for the Norman & Beard, it was quite an early one (1888) according to NPOR, with five manuals and 43 speaking stops (smallest 5-manual ever?), sat on a West gallery (what of the Echo Swell department?) and was removed in 1927, being merged with a large Forster & Andrews in the City Temple, London by Rutt (the organ then destroyed in WW2, and whose Walker successor has been discussed here recently). I'd have thought it would have made sense to rebuild it in the chancel, rather than getting Harrison to produce the oddity that was the rebuilt Sutton organ, leaving that instrument alone. Perhaps, being a rather early N&B, it did not fit in with the fashions of the time, but then neither could the Sutton organ have fitted in with such fashions...
Quote from: revtonynewnham on February 28, 2012, 09:41:24 AM
Hi
I wouldn't be too quick to blame the organ builder - there are often architects and others involved in case design!
As to the 4 man at Jesus College, we were told (on a Cambridge Organists' Assoc visit some years ago) that it was in totally the wrong place to accompany the choir.
Every Blessing
Tony
The removal of the 4m Norman and Beard organ which at one time stood at the west end was the catalyst for the Harrison enlargement of the Sutton Organ. There must be a number of people around who remember the Harrison (it lasted until about 1971), although possibly not with much sympathy, unless their tastes have changed since those neo-classical days.
Another small 4m was the much travelled job which, after about seven previous homes ended up at Paston Grammar School (now College) in Norfolk (subsequently rebuilt with three manuals but the same number of speaking stops -19).
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=A00059
I just can't understand why the still only 40-year-old N&B was simply broken up rather than moved East. It was also a far larger and presumably more powerful organ than even the Harrison-incarnation Sutton organ.
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N13691 (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N13691) is the Hope-Jones to which I referred. Intriguing spec, and as most of the pipework was by Hele (and even included a mixture), it could have been rather nice. It does seem odd, though, that the Great is effectively a Choir/Solo organ, with the only semblance of a chorus on the Swell.
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on February 29, 2012, 07:43:25 PM
I just can't understand why the still only 40-year-old N&B was simply broken up rather than moved East. It was also a far larger and presumably more powerful organ than even the Harrison-incarnation Sutton organ.
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N13691 (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N13691) is the Hope-Jones to which I referred. Intriguing spec, and as most of the pipework was by Hele (and even included a mixture), it could have been rather nice. It does seem odd, though, that the Great is effectively a Choir/Solo organ, with the only semblance of a chorus on the Swell.
There wouldn't have been room for the big N&B at the east end of Jesus Chapel. The organ wasn't lost at that time because the insides served as the basis for Rutt's organ at the City Temple in London and the case to a church in Portsmouth (I think), but both were destroyed in the Blitz.
The HJ/Hele at Ewell is not so unusual if you consider that organs in those days were regarded as crescendo machines - a trend started by Cavaille-Coll. The Great supplied the foundation and the oter departments coloured it.
Yet a Cavaillé-Coll will, except on the smallest instruments, have a complete chorus to mixture plus a good provision of reeds.
Interesting to hear what became of that case. Would the organ not have fitted in one of the transepts, near the choir?
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 02, 2012, 01:49:52 AM
Yet a Cavaillé-Coll will, except on the smallest instruments, have a complete chorus to mixture plus a good provision of reeds.
Depends on your definition of smallest, although even without mixtures and reeds a Cavaille will, as you know, sound much richer than most English jobs (Father Willis possibly excepted). The 4m CC at St-Roch, Paris, has no mixtures or reeds on the Grande, although plenty elsewhere to couple.
My point was that, from CC onwards, coupling was an essential part of registration. Ralph Downes even maintained that most of the average Great was only used for climax effects. I'm not sure that he was entirely correct about that, but he certainly identified a common practice.
The other point to bear in mind is based on English usage and rooted in choral accompaniment, probably in an orchestral style: a lot of organs consisted of the stops a cathedral organist would use most often to accompany his choir, plus a big diapason to bump the hymns along. That this approach to organ design was not ideal for smaller churches where choirs might be less competent and congregational participation more important does not seem to have occurred to people for a very long time! Even purveyors of big choruses like Lewis and Binns fell into the trap.
And we are talking about a residence organ here, so the smaller and more orchestral effects might well be provided in greater profusion than in a church instrument.
Well, Cavaillé-Coll did not invent all ! The Crescendo-based tonal design was already emerging
during Bach's time, in his region, with the whitdrawal of the division of the organ in two parts
(Engchor versus Weitchor, i.e. the Principal chorus and the rest) and the builder who summarized it in an integrated concept
was Eberhard Friedrich Walcker.
As for the couplers, the very last move, that is, having the reeds and mixtures "exported" towards enclosed divisions,
leaving the Great with only fundation stops, this was imagined by E.M. Skinner in the US, and nearly all the europeans
quickly followed.
One should not underestimate the influence of the US builders in Europe. As early as 1880, for example, a belgian builder,
Kerkhoff, who worked nearly only in Brussels and Liège, built his own version of the Roosevelt windchest.
Best wishes,
Pierre
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on March 03, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
Well, Cavaillé-Coll did not invent all ! The Crescendo-based tonal design was already emerging
during Bach's time, in his region, with the whitdrawal of the division of the organ in two parts
(Engchor versus Weitchor, i.e. the Principal chorus and the rest) and the builder who summarized it in an integrated concept
was Eberhard Friedrich Walcker.
As for the couplers, the very last move, that is, having the reeds and mixtures "exported" towards enclosed divisions,
leaving the Great with only fundation stops, this was imagined by E.M. Skinner in the US, and nearly all the europeans
quickly followed.
One should not underestimate the influence of the US builders in Europe. As early as 1880, for example, a belgian builder,
Kerkhoff, who worked nearly only in Brussels and Liège, built his own version of the Roosevelt windchest.
Best wishes,
Pierre
Indeed - although I would have thought that it was more G. Donald Harrison who left us with reedless G.O. divisions - something which I dislike greatly. (However wonderful the chorus-work might be at Groton, Mass., I would gladly exchange a fair proportion of the rest of the instrument for a family of decent, unenclosed chorus trumpets.)
The problem with reedless G.O. sections is that it leaves an unsatisfying climax, particularly if there is no Bombarde division. In addition, it causes a dilemma with French symphonic music, where composers relied extensively upon the Pedal and G.O. reeds for all big effects.
The difficulty is not entirely solved when the reeds are present, but enclosed - as at King's College Chapel, Cambridge* or All Saints', Margaret Street. There is just something more thrilling about a family of well-voiced chorus reeds, speaking unimpeded by expression boxes (or the base of a choir screen). Last week-end I was engaged to play for a visiting choir at Salisbury. The G.O. reeds are indeed quite exciting there - although (perhaps surprisingly to some here), I felt that the family of Trumpets at Exeter Cathedral were superior in overall effect. I suspect that this is largely due to the superb Double Trumpet. The Trombone (16ft.) at Salisbury I found to be a little 'gritty' - if that makes any sense.
* In fairness, given the high pressure on which these Trombe speak (approximately 450mm - heavier than quite a few Tuba ranks), they are probably safer where they are, in the Solo expression box.
St Nicholas Whitehaven (a 3-manual H&H, with a Solo but no Choir) had a reedless Great in 1904, when George Donald Harrison was a fifteen-year-old schoolboy! The reeds were provided by the Solo 8ft and 4ft Tubas, which of course sat on a separate chest: there was a Tubas to Great coupler, although the Tubas had to be drawn for this to work: did this mean that you also had the Tubas sounding on the Solo or was it a transfer coupler?
The Great nevertheless had the usual Harrison Harmonics (and no other mixture): presumably this was placed here so that the reeds would take on a different character according to whether they were used in a solo or chorus capacity. The Great was unusual in that, while it had a diapason chorus of 2 x O.D. 8', Octave 4', Octave Quint 2 2/3' and Superoctave 2', plus Geigens at 16', 8' and 4', it also had an extremely complete flute chorus, consisting of Quintaton 32', Double Claribel Flute 16', Wald Flute 8', Rohr Flute 8', Stopped Quint 5 1/3', Hohl Flute 4' and Harmonic Piccolo 2'. The 32', 5 1/3' and 4' flutes could have been useful for Messiaen, who often called for such stops at 16', 2 2/3 and sometimes 2' pitch. I rather suspect (having known the odd 8ft example) that the Double Claribel Flute would have been too powerful to be substituted for the Saint-Trinité Positif Quintaton 16p and of course the 2 2/3 was of diapason tone (although I have heard a 1920s Harrison Twelfth and Superoctave used, with a 16ft Bourdon, most successfully in Messiaen's Prière après la Communion from the Livre du Saint-Sacrement), but it would have been entirely possible to play up an octave. I presume that the reason for this remarkable provision of flutes was to provide something of a Choir organ (the Solo flutes, I assume, being much too loud for choral accompaniment). The Swell was mostly conventional, except that there was an Octave Gamba 4' where one might have expected a Principal, and a Cor Anglais where one might have expected to find a Vox Humana. Presumably the C. A. could be used with or against the Choir-within-the-Great flutes to colour things up.
The Solo, perhaps surprisingly, had no 16ft reed, though it did have strings 16/8/8. The Pedal was entirely conventional, with four ranks: a 32/16/8 Major Bass/Open Wood/Octave Wood, a 16/8 Violone/Violoncello, a 16/8 Bourdon/Flute and a 16/8 Ophicleide/Tromba.
Sadly, the church was completely destroyed by fire in 1971: the whole building collapsed, leaving only the tower standing. Needless to say, nothing whatsoever remained of the organ, which was, along with the Willis at St Bees, considered to be one of Colonel George Dixon's finest designs. While it would be an audacious designer who had an organ built to such a specification today, I would have loved to have heard this organ, particularly with that 32.16.8.8.5 1/3.4.2 flute chorus on the Great!
There is also in Whitehaven, in St James' church, a Dixon-designed 1909 Norman & Beard of very orchestral (but not Hope-Jones-like) specification, with three manuals and 26 stops - this thankfully survives intact and is, I understand, shortly to be restored. Again, the chorus reeds (8ft Harmonic Tromba, 4ft Octave Tromba) are to be found on the top manual, the Orchestral/Bombarde (the two chests each having their own separate sets of couplers - it's effectively a 4-manual organ with only three claviers) - and again, no choir organ. The Great has no mixture, but an 8/4/2 2/3/2ft diapason chorus (which is rich but not opaque), underpinned by a 16ft Rohr Bordun and accompanied by an 8ft Geigen and Claribel Flute. The Swell stoplist is also intriguing: Horn Diapason 8', Lieblich Gedeckt 8', Echo Gamba 8', Gemshorn 4', Mixture III (15.19.22), Corno di Bassetto 16', Trumpet 8'. Predictably, the Swell has an octave coupler, a unison off and an extra top octave. The main strings are to be found on the Orchestral organ, along with an 8ft Oboe, an 8ft Hohl Flute and 4ft Concert Flute. The Pedal is pretty conventional: Open Wood 16', Sub Bass 16', Octave Wood 8', Flute 8', Trombone 16'. The last, I was told, is quite thrilling but not absolutely overpowering.
Norman & Beard's Flutes and Trombas are not to be confused with those of Harrison & Harrison: they are generally brighter and more colourful. The reeds are very powerful but not at all lacking harmonics, perhaps sitting between Willis and Compton. I understand that N&B's reed voicers were a father and son team by the name of Rundle, who apparently used red wax in places to dull certain of the less pleasant harmonics that can be present in very hard-blown reeds without sacrificing brightness of tone. I can certainly vouch for the effectiveness of these reeds elsewhere.
Sadly, I have never heard so much as a recording of either of these two Whitehaven organs: much of my information on them came from the late David Sanger. However, I am reasonably familiar with N&B's work of this era and am sick fed up of having to disabuse people of the notion that they were the same thing as HN&B in the latter days, builders of cheap, poor-quality organs. They were certainly not cheap and their quality has never been surpassed: many still work well after many years' service. One near me still has its original exhaust pneumatic action, which still goes like the clappers (and no missing or sluggish notes anywhere) even though it's had no attention since 1926. Find me a neoclassical tracker job that sounds half as nice or capable of lasting half as long so reliably... never mind matching the precise, consistent weighting, feedback and lightning-fast attack of the N&B Ex.Pn. action.
I would dare to suggest that Norman & Beard/Hill, Norman & Beard, 1890-1935, were the finest organbuilders this country has ever seen. I know I rave about other organs (specifically by Willis and Walker) but none have the sheer completeness of N&B to me. Willis' can be rather restrictive (fabulous symphonic organs, useless Baroque organs), pre-electric-action-era Walkers generally have poorly-designed actions (unreliable if pneumatic, horribly heavy and inconsistent if tracker), Harrisons can be rather opaque tonally... N&B had no such weaknesses (aside from the Hope-Jones organs they built - fabulous actions, tonally an acquired taste). If anyone on this forum is lucky enough to be custodian of a N&B or pre-war HN&B which is in original condition), please, I beg you: preserve and maintain it as it is and do not seek to alter it (unless it is to add pipework or general pistons in a sympathetic manner which does not compromise the integrity of the console, action or chests, if such a thing is possible).
For the sake of further research, here is are the NPOR surveys for the two organs in Whitehaven:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N01636 (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N01636) (the H&H in St Nicholas)
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N03540 (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N03540) (the N&B in St James).
GDH maintained that the Great reeds were provided by the Bombarde - logical enough if there is one!
I have no qualms about enclosing the Great reeds (or, come to that, the flues), provided that the effect with the box open is the same as an unenclosed chorus. I don't subscribe to the opinion that you can always tell - it depends on placement and construction. In these parts, for example, tubas tend to be enclosed (all three in this Province are). A couple of blocks away, the 50s Casavant at Cochrane Street Church has one of the best tubas I've ever heard. David Wells, on a visit, reckoned it must be a Harrison (interesting, because the previous organ was a large 3m Harrison, apparently killed off by North American heating systems, as were a lot of slider-chest organs, and both Casavants and the organist who was there at the time of the installation maintain that none of it was used in the new one except the facade). There is no doubt at all that when the shutters are open it sounds just like an unenclosed tuba should.
I think the Trombas at King's would have been voiced on a lower pressure if they'd been unenclosed.
Absence of Great reeds is certainly a handicap if there is no practical alternative. It's no use relying on the Swell reeds, because they're the Swell reeds and that, to a large extent, is that. On the aforementioned Cochrane Street Casavant, there are no Great reeds, and the Tuba is of much the same tone as the Swell reeds, but louder - they're all fairly bright trumpets. You therefore have no choice about your chorus reed tone. The same thing obtains up the road at the Basilica. The cathedral organ has 8 and 4 Great reeds (and octave couplers), plus Double Trumpet, Cornopean, Oboe and Vox in the Swell and a Tuba on the Solo - and they each have their own character. The Great 8', despite being called 'Tromba', is quite as lively as a mid-period Father Willis and in the bass is quite blasphemous (as my Belfast friend Stephen Hamill would say). There is thus a very comprehensive choice of reed choruses, which I find makes it easier to get the right ambience in different styles when compared to the other two jobs.
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
St Nicholas Whitehaven (a 3-manual H&H, with a Solo but no Choir) had a reedless Great in 1904, when George Donald Harrison was a fifteen-year-old schoolboy! The reeds were provided by the Solo 8ft and 4ft Tubas, which of course sat on a separate chest: there was a Tubas to Great coupler, although the Tubas had to be drawn for this to work: did this mean that you also had the Tubas sounding on the Solo or was it a transfer coupler?
And I wonder how much of this was simply to allow the stop-list to appear 'different' or exciting, in order for this relatively unknown firm (at that time) to secure its first large contract. As far as I can recall, neither Arthur nor George Dixon advocated such an idea on any subsequent instrument of comparable size.With regard to the Tubas, it is likely that the stop Tubas to Great was a transfer, not a coupler (since there was, in addition, a Solo to Great). Furthermore, two years later, at Saint Martin's Church, Birmingham, the first recorded instance of the transfer [Great] Reeds on Choir appears; this device was to become a standard feature of Harrison organs for many years*
* As recently as 1985, the Harrison organ at Exeter Cathedral was given the transfers Great Reeds on Pedal and Great Reeds on Choir. However, in this case, the reed chest was connected to the flue soundboards mechanically, so the provision of this facility with the existing mechanism was not entirely straightforward.
Saint John the Baptist, Cirencester (H&H, 2009), is an even more recent example.
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
The Great nevertheless had the usual Harrison Harmonics (and no other mixture): presumably this was placed here so that the reeds would take on a different character according to whether they were used in a solo or chorus capacity. The Great was unusual in that, while it had a diapason chorus of 2 x O.D. 8', Octave 4', Octave Quint 2 2/3' and Superoctave 2', plus Geigens at 16', 8' and 4', it also had an extremely complete flute chorus, consisting of Quintaton 32', Double Claribel Flute 16', Wald Flute 8', Rohr Flute 8', Stopped Quint 5 1/3', Hohl Flute 4' and Harmonic Piccolo 2'. The 32', 5 1/3' and 4' flutes could have been useful for Messiaen, who often called for such stops at 16', 2 2/3 and sometimes 2' pitch. I rather suspect (having known the odd 8ft example) that the Double Claribel Flute would have been too powerful to be substituted for the Saint-Trinité Positif Quintaton 16p and of course the 2 2/3 was of diapason tone (although I have heard a 1920s Harrison Twelfth and Superoctave used, with a 16ft Bourdon, most successfully in Messiaen's Prière après la Communion from the Livre du Saint-Sacrement), but it would have been entirely possible to play up an octave. I presume that the reason for this remarkable provision of flutes was to provide something of a Choir organ (the Solo flutes, I assume, being much too loud for choral accompaniment). The Swell was mostly conventional, except that there was an Octave Gamba 4' where one might have expected a Principal, and a Cor Anglais where one might have expected to find a Vox Humana. Presumably the C. A. could be used with or against the Choir-within-the-Great flutes to colour things up.
Sadly, due to the unfortunate destruction of this instrument, we con only offer conjecture about how it sounded. However, basing an opinion on other H&H instruments from roughly the same period, I suspect that, whist the pitches may have been present, the voicing and tonal balance of these stops would have been the antithesis of those sounds which Messiaen had in mind.Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
The Solo, perhaps surprisingly, had no 16ft reed, though it did have strings 16/8/8. The Pedal was entirely conventional, with four ranks: a 32/16/8 Major Bass/Open Wood/Octave Wood, a 16/8 Violone/Violoncello, a 16/8 Bourdon/Flute and a 16/8 Ophicleide/Tromba.
Sadly, the church was completely destroyed by fire in 1971: the whole building collapsed, leaving only the tower standing. Needless to say, nothing whatsoever remained of the organ, which was, along with the Willis at St Bees, considered to be one of Colonel George Dixon's finest designs. While it would be an audacious designer who had an organ built to such a specification today, I would have loved to have heard this organ, particularly with that 32.16.8.8.5 1/3.4.2 flute chorus on the Great!
Actually there is a little more left than this. Type the church name into a search bar on 'Google', hit enter, then search for images (the address is somewhat lengthy, so I have not copied it here). Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
There is also in Whitehaven, in St James' church, a Dixon-designed 1909 Norman & Beard of very orchestral (but not Hope-Jones-like) specification, with three manuals and 26 stops - this thankfully survives intact and is, I understand, shortly to be restored. Again, the chorus reeds (8ft Harmonic Tromba, 4ft Octave Tromba) are to be found on the top manual, the Orchestral/Bombarde (the two chests each having their own separate sets of couplers - it's effectively a 4-manual organ with only three claviers) - and again, no choir organ. The Great has no mixture, but an 8/4/2 2/3/2ft diapason chorus (which is rich but not opaque), underpinned by a 16ft Rohr Bordun and accompanied by an 8ft Geigen and Claribel Flute. The Swell stoplist is also intriguing: Horn Diapason 8', Lieblich Gedeckt 8', Echo Gamba 8', Gemshorn 4', Mixture III (15.19.22), Corno di Bassetto 16', Trumpet 8'. Predictably, the Swell has an octave coupler, a unison off and an extra top octave. The main strings are to be found on the Orchestral organ, along with an 8ft Oboe, an 8ft Hohl Flute and 4ft Concert Flute. The Pedal is pretty conventional: Open Wood 16', Sub Bass 16', Octave Wood 8', Flute 8', Trombone 16'. The last, I was told, is quite thrilling but not absolutely overpowering.
Norman & Beard's Flutes and Trombas are not to be confused with those of Harrison & Harrison: they are generally brighter and more colourful. The reeds are very powerful but not at all lacking harmonics, perhaps sitting between Willis and Compton. I understand that N&B's reed voicers were a father and son team by the name of Rundle, who apparently used red wax in places to dull certain of the less pleasant harmonics that can be present in very hard-blown reeds without sacrificing brightness of tone. I can certainly vouch for the effectiveness of these reeds elsewhere.
Sadly, I have never heard so much as a recording of either of these two Whitehaven organs: much of my information on them came from the late David Sanger. However, I am reasonably familiar with N&B's work of this era and am sick fed up of having to disabuse people of the notion that they were the same thing as HN&B in the latter days, builders of cheap, poor-quality organs. They were certainly not cheap and their quality has never been surpassed: many still work well after many years' service. One near me still has its original exhaust pneumatic action, which still goes like the clappers (and no missing or sluggish notes anywhere) even though it's had no attention since 1926. Find me a neoclassical tracker job that sounds half as nice or capable of lasting half as long so reliably... never mind matching the precise, consistent weighting, feedback and lightning-fast attack of the N&B Ex.Pn. action.
I would dare to suggest that Norman & Beard/Hill, Norman & Beard, 1890-1935, were the finest organbuilders this country has ever seen. I know I rave about other organs (specifically by Willis and Walker) but none have the sheer completeness of N&B to me. Willis' can be rather restrictive (fabulous symphonic organs, useless Baroque organs), pre-electric-action-era Walkers generally have poorly-designed actions (unreliable if pneumatic, horribly heavy and inconsistent if tracker), Harrisons can be rather opaque tonally... N&B had no such weaknesses (aside from the Hope-Jones organs they built - fabulous actions, tonally an acquired taste). If anyone on this forum is lucky enough to be custodian of a N&B or pre-war HN&B which is in original condition), please, I beg you: preserve and maintain it as it is and do not seek to alter it (unless it is to add pipework or general pistons in a sympathetic manner which does not compromise the integrity of the console, action or chests, if such a thing is possible).
For the sake of further research, here is are the NPOR surveys for the two organs in Whitehaven:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N01636 (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N01636) (the H&H in St Nicholas)
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N03540 (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N03540) (the N&B in St James).
It is true that examples of the work of Norman & Beard from this period display excellent workmanship and superb voicing. However, due to their close links with Hope-Jones, I am not convinced that many of their instruments (from this era) are even as musically versatile as those by Harrison. The foundation work strikes me as very solid - and with little in the way of upperwork or chorus work. Of course I realise that this was somewhat typical of the period, but I would suggest that Norman & Beard organs built at this time had even less of either than did instruments by some of their competitors. Whilst I do not particularly like 'vintage' H&H organs, two things cannot be denied: firstly, all their organs, both inside and out, were models of perfection, showing superb workmanship and high-quality voicing (in the style of the period). Secondly, Arthur never lost sight of the importance of chorus work on his instruments. Most of his larger organs were given two compound stops on the G.O. and, if one ignores the large Open Diapason and the 'Harmonics', the chorus, based on the Second Open Diapason, up to the quint Mixture (15-19-22-26-29), is actually quite a good sound.
Certainly I would not wish to state that either the voicing or workmanship of an Arthur (and Harry) Harrison organ is inferior to those of Norman & Beard.
Norman & Beard choruses are usually excellent: the Large Open is not as opaque a sound as an H&H one but big and rich in tone, the Small is a nice, versatile, warm stop, the Principal and Fifteenth quite bright, usually with at least a 3-rank quint mixture to cap it. The Hope-Jones influence was really very little felt in the church organs: E. W. Norman and G. W. Beard were men with their own very forthright opinions who often quarrelled with the mad Merseyside maverick. As far as I know, N&B never put a Diaphone or a Tibia in a church organ either. I rather liked having the former when I tinkered around on the Compton organ at Downside Abbey a few years ago. Here, however, is a marvellous example of what could happen when (Hill) Norman & Beard, Robert Hope-Jones' posthumous influence and the most brilliant pupil of Max Reger and Karl Straube coincided: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VUBSUfFls8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VUBSUfFls8)
I find N&B organs more musical to the ear than the vintage Arthur Harrison war-horses. I also think they have more character. Harrison had a way of eliminating all semblance of character in his search for perfection: a tendency which dogs Harrison organs even today. The N&B is clearly more a development of the old English Classical organ and certainly reflects the firm's founders' training at Walker. The Romsey Walker is something of a precursor: the N&Bs I've encountered have not lost that clarity. N&B also certainly knew how to voice a Stopped Diapason... but there can be no doubt that N&B Trombas are far more pleasant and indeed useful than those of Arthur Harrison. Their open flutes are nicer too IMO.
I'd like to get the chance to hear some of Hele's better organs. I know they built some horrors but I am told by your friend in Plymouth that some of them are very fine indeed, broadly comparable to N&B of the era but with reeds often bought in from France...
Hi
The Norman & beard that I used to play sometime - dating from around the early 20th century - was, I suspect, still influenced to some degree by Hope-Jones - even if it didn't contain any specifically HJ tonalities. the most obvious link was the Large Open of the Great, which (it being a fairly small 2 manual) would stand on its own against full swell with copuler and the box open! I used it to substitute for the Tuba in the Wilcocks arrangement of O Come all ye Faithful! Very similar to H_J style diapasons. Unfortunately, it saw more use than would be ideal as many bases of the small open were off speech - they were on a pneumatic off-note chest in the Aisle frontage - simple enough to repair - except the 16ft Open Wood stood immediately in front of the face boards - rather poor design.
The Large Open was, I suspect, an addition - it was at the front of the great chest, just above the console, with the basses above and behind the organist's head, mounted on the screen that separated the organ from the choir stalls. Very weird to play.
Stop list at http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=E00428
Every Blessing
Tony
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 02:02:05 PM
Norman & Beard choruses are usually excellent: the Large Open is not as opaque a sound as an H&H one but big and rich in tone, the Small is a nice, versatile, warm stop, the Principal and Fifteenth quite bright, usually with at least a 3-rank quint mixture to cap it.
Quint mixture - could you list a few examples, please? Those which I have encountered from this era contained either a third-sounding rank, or (worse) a copy of an Arthur Harrison 'Harmonics'. (Rushworth & Dreaper did the same thing during this era, on some of their larger instruments.)
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 02:02:05 PM
I find N&B organs more musical to the ear than the vintage Arthur Harrison war-horses. I also think they have more character. Harrison had a way of eliminating all semblance of character in his search for perfection: a tendency which dogs Harrison organs even today. The N&B is clearly more a development of the old English Classical organ and certainly reflects the firm's founders' training at Walker. The Romsey Walker is something of a precursor: the N&Bs I've encountered have not lost that clarity. N&B also certainly knew how to voice a Stopped Diapason... but there can be no doubt that N&B Trombas are far more pleasant and indeed useful than those of Arthur Harrison. Their open flutes are nicer too IMO.
I have had the pleasure of playing the Romsey Walker on many occasions - including both recital and service work. I can assure you that it is an entirely different instrument to anything by Norman and Beard which I have encountered so far - which, for me, precludes it being regarded as a precursor to any of their organs. It is a most musical instrument, with clear, unforced choruses, beautiful flutes and generally good English reeds. I do wish that the G.O. reeds had not been revoiced some years ago, though. Oh - and I would remove the Mander Tuba; aside from the fact that I do not like such stops, this one really does not fit with the character of the organ.
However, your comment regarding chorus reeds is closer to the mark. I think that it is fair to say that Trombe by Norman & Beard were of a rather more sociable tone than those by Harrison. Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 02:02:05 PM
I'd like to get the chance to hear some of Hele's better organs. I know they built some horrors but I am told by your friend in Plymouth that some of them are very fine indeed, broadly comparable to N&B of the era but with reeds often bought in from France...
Some are indeed quite good. Saint John the Baptist, Penzance, is reasonable, although the G.O. could do with a compound stop and a flue double, the building would certainly take it. (Yes, I have spent quite a few hours playing it.)
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on March 04, 2012, 02:02:05 PM
N&B Trombas are far more pleasant
Our N+B only received its Gt Trumpet in 1965 (HNB) when both the Swell Horn and Oboe were revoiced. With the box open, there is hardly any difference between Horn and Trumpet, and I am toying with the idea of swapping the Trumpet for a period N+B Tromba, this being a cheaper option than having all the reeds revoiced back to their 1910 original.