BBC story about mainstream Dutch Belief in a Non-Existent God

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

My wife hs just drawn
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14417362
to my attention. . .

I'm posting this here deliberately as it demonstrates how all things are possible. I do not personally find favour with a significant aspect of it but who am I to say . . . ? More importantly, however, it shows how inclusion can be more effective than exclusion.

The Exodus Church is part of the mainstream Protestant Church in the Netherlands . . . . "God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience" - Rev Klaas Hendrikse - "You don't have to believe that Jesus was physically resurrected"

Can we ensure that organs retain an important part of the human experience of God?

Best wishes

David P

"An imposing figure in black robes and white clerical collar, Mr Hendrikse presides over the Sunday service at the Exodus Church in Gorinchem, central Holland.

It is part of the mainstream Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN), and the service is conventional enough, with hymns, readings from the Bible, and the Lord's Prayer. But the message from Mr Hendrikse's sermon seems bleak - "Make the most of life on earth, because it will probably be the only one you get".

"Personally I have no talent for believing in life after death," Mr Hendrikse says. "No, for me our life, our task, is before death."

Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing.
Continue reading the main story
"Start Quote

    God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience"

End Quote Rev Klaas Hendrikse

"When it happens, it happens down to earth, between you and me, between people, that's where it can happen. God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience."

Mr Hendrikse describes the Bible's account of Jesus's life as a mythological story about a man who may never have existed, even if it is a valuable source of wisdom about how to lead a good life.

His book Believing in a Non-Existent God led to calls from more traditionalist Christians for him to be removed. However, a special church meeting decided his views were too widely shared among church thinkers for him to be singled out.

A study by the Free University of Amsterdam found that one-in-six clergy in the PKN and six other smaller denominations was either agnostic or atheist.

The Rev Kirsten Slattenaar, Exodus Church's regular priest, also rejects the idea - widely considered central to Christianity - that Jesus was divine as well as human.

"I think 'Son of God' is a kind of title," she says. "I don't think he was a god or a half god. I think he was a man, but he was a special man because he was very good in living from out of love, from out of the spirit of God he found inside himself."

Mrs Slattenaar acknowledges that she's changing what the Church has said, but, she insists, not the "real meaning of Christianity".

She says that there "is not only one answer" and complains that "a lot of traditional beliefs are outside people and have grown into rigid things that you can't touch any more".

Dienie van Wingaarden, who's been going to Exodus Church for 20 years, is among lay people attracted to such free thinking.

I think it's very liberating. [Klaas Hendrikse] is using the Bible in a metaphorical way so I can bring it to my own way of thinking, my own way of doing."

Wim De Jong says, "Here you can believe what you want to think for yourself, what you really feel and believe is true."

Churches in Amsterdam were hoping to attract such people with a recent open evening.

At the Old Church "in the hottest part of the red light district", the attractions included "speed-dating".

As skimpily dressed girls began to appear in red-lit windows in the streets outside, visitors to the church moved from table to table to discuss love with a succession of strangers.

Professor Hijme Stoeffels of the Free University in Amsterdam says it is in such concepts as love that people base their diffuse ideas of religion.

"In our society it's called 'somethingism'," he says. "There must be 'something' between heaven and earth, but to call it 'God', and even 'a personal God', for the majority of Dutch is a bridge too far.

"Christian churches are in a market situation. They can offer their ideas to a majority of the population which is interested in spirituality or some kind of religion."

To compete in this market of ideas, some Christian groups seem ready virtually to reinvent Christianity.

They want the Netherlands to be a laboratory for Christianity, experimenting with radical new ways of understanding the faith.

Stroom ("Stream") West is the experiment devised by one church to reach out to the young people.

In an Amsterdam theatre young people contemplate the concept of eternity by spacing out a heap of rice grains individually across the floor.

"The difference from other churches is that we are... experimenting with the contents of the gospel," says Rikko Voorberg, who helps to run Stroom West. "Traditionally we bring a beautiful story and ask people to sit down listen and get convinced. This is the other way around."

Stroom focuses on people's personal search for God, not on the church's traditional black-and-white answers.

Rikko believes traditional Christianity places God in too restricted a box.

He believes that in a post-modern society that no longer has the same belief in certainty, there is an urgent need to "take God out of the box".

"The Church has to be alert to what is going on in society," he says. "It has to change to stay Christian. You can't preach heaven in the same way today as you did 2,000 years ago, and we have to think again what it is. We can use the same words and say something totally different."

When I asked Rikko whether he believed Jesus was the son of God he looked uncomfortable.

"That's a very tough question. I'm not sure what it means," he says.

"People have very strict ideas about what it means. Some ideas I might agree with, some ideas I don't."

Such equivocation is anathema in Holland's Bible Belt, among the large number of people who live according to strict Christian orthodoxy.

In the quiet town of Staphorst about a quarter of the population attends the conservative Dutch Reformed Church every Sunday.

The town even has a by-law against swearing.

Its deputy mayor, Sytse de Jong, accuses progressive groups of trying to change Christianity to fit current social norms.

"When we get people into the Church by throwing Jesus Christ out of the Church, then we lose the core of Christianity. Then we are not reforming the institutions and attitudes but the core of our message."

But many churches are keen to work with anyone who believes in "something".

They believe that only through adaptation can their religion survive.

The young people at Stroom West write on plates the names of those things that prevent earth from being heaven - cancer, war, hunger - and destroy them symbolically.

The new Christianity is already developing its own ritual.

[Barry Williams]

There must be a serious shortage of news, for this type of thing has bween around for centuries, most notably in the middle and later 19th Century at German universities.  It is a natural and perfectly understable reaction to the huge changes that St Paul tried to make to the message of Jesus.  Many folk, over the centuries, have tried to get back to the way of life that the founder set out.  To do so much clutter has to be discarded and most of that clutter has arisen through that which we call 'the church'.

As I commented in an earlier post, it is difficult to get beyond Lord Soper's cogent yet far-reaching definition/explanantion in these things, an explanantion that accords entirely with the message of Jesus.

It is a great pity that this thread is on an organ board.  It merits a board of its own where it might attract rather more attention than it gets here.

Barry Williams

[David Pinnegar]

It is a great pity that this thread is on an organ board.  It merits a board of its own where it might attract rather more attention than it gets here.

Dear Barry

:) ;) Coming from you I'm not entirely sure of the full terms and effect of your intented meaning . . . Does that mean that you think such a thread should not be on this board at all? I did explain on the first posting why I considered it to be valuable here . . . and if you are in agreement with such a sentiment  . . . then this board should be leading the way and thereby attracting interest in organs from directions from which more interest in organs should be coming . . .

Members or others who are aware of other boards where such matters should be more in the public realm but aren't might direct such people towards this board . . .

Perhaps if you could find it easily you might possibly quote the Soper definition here to which you refer or otherwise include a link?

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

I would normally quote Paul (1 Corinthians 15) here, but since at least one person seems to think that he got things wrong (not a view that I agree with), let's look at what Jesus Himself said about His resurrection - "He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again." (Mark 8:31 - but there are similar passages in both Matthew and Luke) - and there are other places where Jesus makes it clear that He's expecting to rise again.

Turning to Paul's words, consider:-  "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." (1 Cor 15:14) and "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.  Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost." (1 Cor 15: 17-18)

The resurrection of Jesus (the man) is the keystone of the Christian faith - without that, any belief system is not Christianity!

Every Blessing

Tony

[Barry Williams]

Dear David,

Thank you.  Lord Soper simply said:  "God is love."  The quote that springs to mind (I am always reluctant to quote single verses!) is I John chapter 4, verse 7:  'Beloved, Let us love one another, For God is love.'

Responding to Tony's point:  Saint Paul is frequently confused and contradictory in his theology.  Without Saint Paul we would never had had the unreformed (unbiblical) church and Christianity would instead have retained The Golden Rule, as exemplified in the quote above and many other Bible passages that are central to the way of life that Jesus Christ taught.  I respectfully disagree with Tony's specific interpretation of Holy Scripture.  The juxtaposition of Saint Paul's writings in this way can give a gravely erroneous impression.  It is always dangerous to attempt to match individual quotes.  Rather, one should look at the overall context of the passages.  It could be argued, for example, that Jesus' friends were absolutely convinced his resurrection would occur in their lifetime.  Others have written far more eloquently than I can about the 'Christification' of the early church and the attempts made to eradicate Jesus' teachings as a result of what Saint Paul wrote.  St John Chrysostom's dreadful eight sermons could nevwer have been preached without Saint Paul's writings as support.  There is no doubt whatsoever that the version of Christianity we now have is as much 'Paulianity' as Christianity and we are the worse off for the influence of Saint Paul who, after all, never knew Jesus nor had direct access to his teachings.  Modern theologians recognise the departure of Chritisianity from 'The Jesus Movement' and the weakening of the faith by the eradication of James, the first head of the church.  Vast quantities of literature have been written about this with scholarship of the very highest erudition.  It does not need to be rehearsed on an organ forum.

All of this is very (extremely) elementary and thoroughly unremarkable theology; as I wrote before, it has no rightful place here.  I agree with those who think that this thread is utterly irrelevant and, indeed, almost offensive, on this forum.

It is such a pity that organs are largely found in churches.  The recent increase in house (pipe) organs is most encouraging and augers well for the future. 

Yours sincerely,

Barry

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

I think Barry & I will have to "agree to differ" on this one.  If we take Holy Scripture seriously, then we can't just dismiss the greater part of the New Testament.

Yes, God is love - but God is also just - and will be the judge at the end of time (whenever that will be - that's a can of worms that has caused endless controversy - and continues to do so).  Some of Paul's teachings - which we must remember were written in a specific time and to specific churches with their problems - does need interpreting in the light of the rest of scripture.  For instance, his views on women in leadership (be silent in church and so on) must have been for the specific situation that he was writing into, because elsewhere in the New Testament we read of women prophets (Philips's daughters mentioned in Acts) and even a female Apostle (Junias in Romans 16:7 is, in the Greek, the female form of the name!  I wonder why that point hasn't been more widely picked up?) - but Paul has a lot to say to the church today.

Every Blessing

Tony

[Barry Williams]

".....but Paul has a lot to say to the church today."

What Tony is advocating is a 'pick and mix' of St Paul's teachings.  The very fact that this is necessary indicates my point.

Paul created repellant doctrines which no normal human being with respect for other humans could espouse.  Of course this is not the whole of the story and much of what St Paul wrote (or is currently attributed to him) is of value.  Yet he is the founder of a type of modern Christianity and that, in many aspects, is at variance with the message of the founder.  St Paul even contradicts himself, not once but many times.  It is not for nothing that many learned scholars refer to 'Paulianity'.  Paul denied so many basic facts that it is difficult to know here to start.  He gives no sense that Jesus was Jewish, even though the Bible makes this clear.  When he does try to make a point on this he gets it wrong.  (For example, his argument on the connection between Abraham and Christ - note not Jesus - misinterpretes a collective Hebrew noun for a singular one.) 

With one possible exception Paul ignores all the parables.  (The exception is a tiny phrase quoting Matthew in Thessalonians and even this is not necessarily original.)  Paul does not represent Jesus as an historical figure.  Without that Tony's point about the resurrection of the man the Letter to The Galatians would have been very different!  I could go on and on with many more examples.  (You would have at least few more if the wretched computer cursor would stay still long enough!)


On the question of women in church, there were women overseers in the Church at Ephesus.  These were to all intents and purposes Bishops.  (Episcopi)  Again, Saint Paul is contradicted, this time by history.

Sorry, but I cannot accept that the discrepancies between Saint Paul and Jesus should be resolved in favour of Saint Paul, nor can they be explained by reference to particular circumstances of the time.


Barry Williams

[David Pinnegar]

I could go on and on with many more examples.  (You would have at least few more if the wretched computer cursor would stay still long enough!)

Dear Barry

Yes - please carry on! It's certain that I won't be the only person interested in what you're saying here. And Tony too.

However, it's convenient to be a Quantum Physicist familiar with a probability of an electron being in two places at once . . . to to expect its behaviour to be both as a particle and as a wave at one and the same time . . . as it's then not incompatible to hold two opposing beliefs at the same time . . . !

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi Barry

If, as you claim, Paul didn't acknowledge the Jewishness of Jesus, why did he make it his practice to start preaching first in the synagogues in many of the places he is recorded as visiting in Acts?  Why was his starting point there demonstrating from the Old Testament (i.e. the Jewish scriptures) that Jesus was the Messiah of Jewish prophecy?

I don't think it's a "pick and mix" approach - Paul was writing into specific situations.  His comments about women in leadership are, I suspect, due to the heavily patriarchal nature of society at the time.  As it was, Jesus' treatment of women had been pretty revolutionary.  Why didn't he start an anti-slavery campaign, given his words in various places about the equality of mankind?  One can only speculate, but could it be that such a major social campaign would have hindered the rapid growth of the early church?  It's more a case of applying good Biblical interpretative principles - the first one being to see what the whole Bible has to say about a subject.  And don't forget that in some places Paul clearly says - or sometimes implies - that his "commands" are his own views!

Are we really to think that Paul - who suffered a great deal for his faith - just read through Acts - was misguided and/or a false teacher?  If that was the case, why did the early church fathers quote so much from his writings?  Were they all mislead as well?  And that was before the canon of scripture was formalized.

Every Blessing

Tony
off in a few minutes to preach on Noah!

[David Pinnegar]

Are we really to think that Paul - who suffered a great deal for his faith - just read through Acts - was misguided and/or a false teacher?  If that was the case, why did the early church fathers quote so much from his writings? 

Hi!

I think that the reality is that they might not be quoting from Paul's writings but from other sources common between them. I have mentioned in the "Awkward Corner" the translations by Szekerly of Essene originated texts and an instance for example is the verse referring to seeing through a glass darkly and then face to face, known to us through Paul but which is ascribed in Szekerly's translations direct to Christ. It is to be found in the first publication "The Gospel of Peace of Jesus Christ".

More generally, in my mind the Exodus Church goes a long way to breaking down the barriers that have often blocked people coming into churches - but wonder if it doesn't go slightly too far. It's easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater and whilst one might follow the thread that Jesus was the metaphorical son of God, a spiritual son of God as he asks us all to be as daughters and sons of God as his brothers, rather than having to be a physical material son of God, rejecting the existence of God denies truths about the order of the universe, of matter and fundamental forces known in detail to mathematicians and physicists.

So in a way, the philosophy promoted by the Exodus Church is just as much a kindergarten start to introducing the more fundamental truths as is the literalism promoted by the Kendrick type introduction offered by other forms of evangelism.

A particular fascination occurs in studying electrons. They are observed as bullet like objects but when we fire them through two slits at once, they diffract and go through both slits at once. We cannot tell through which slit any electron goes and as soon as we try to observe the the route of the electron, its behaviour as a wave breaks down. We cannot know precisely the position of an electron and its momentum at the same time and there is a precision determined by the Planck constant beyond which we cannot reach. Below this fundamental level, only God knows what happens . . . !

In ascribing to God the realm of which we do not know, some decry belief in God as a superstition. But this would be in the case in the realm of a knowledge of which we have not the answer _yet_ - in the case of the Planck constant and our ability to break through knowledge of the position and momentum of an electron, the blockage is not with the infancy of our knowledge but a fundamental block imposed upon the supremacy of humankind and making the microstructure simply verboten to us. God's existence is possibly not merely permitted but may be quite literally within that conceptual space of the Planck Constant, that realm of which the forces of what surrounds us and what makes us we are simply not allowed to know.

The Exodus Church is so very right in the consequences of saying that Christianity is in the here and now, rather than in an afterlife . . . an afterlife by which I mean the interpretation enjoyed by those who pass by the real life in this life in expectation of a second life after death. But in doing so there is a danger of losing touch with the concurrent eternal, our perception of the present within the spritual concept of the eternal. The mother of a friend stands within the Watchtower with members who spend multiple days per week knocking on doors with the message that only a precious few will be saved - and in doing so she loses contact with the enjoyment to be gained by participation within her own family and the good things that she can promote within the line of her own progeny. She's storing up treasures in heaven, which may not exist in the form and at the time of which she is expectant . . . and losing the opportunities that her life affords to her. . . .

It's in the contemplations one receives within organ music that one can often achieve a deeper view of the eternal.

Best wishes

David P

[twanguitar]

In reading these posts I cannot help being reminded of the wife of a churchwarden who once said to me about her husband "Fred isn't really a Christian - he just knows a lot about it".

Delete this if you find it offensive, though it wasn't intended to be.

TG

[Barry Williams]

There is a temptation to regard everything in the Holy Bible as of equal weight.  That is a doctrine espoused by Christians who put 'the church' before anything else.  It is what Tony has, probably inadvertently, done here.  The Reformation was, thankfully, based on a very different approach.

Recent major scholarship has shown how Saint Paul manipulated the faith into his own design.  Tony seeks to minimise the impact of that by quoting only the favourable parts.  Without Saint Paul we would only have the message of Jesus and that is the true message.  Much of what Saint Paul taught is against the thrust of Jesus' teaching - that is, when Saint Paul is not contradicting himself or others who knew Jesus.  So many scholars of very great ability have written with enormous erudition about this, yet Christians seek to minimise the facts.

Anyway, I find this thread deeply offensive and wholly inappropriate to an organ forum.  It has no rightful place here and this is my final post on this thread.  In the meantime I shall consider leaving the forum forever, as have others, solely because of the presence of this thread.

Barry Williams

[David Pinnegar]

Anyway, I find this thread deeply offensive and wholly inappropriate to an organ forum.  It has no rightful place here and this is my final post on this thread.  In the meantime I shall consider leaving the forum forever, as have others, solely because of the presence of this thread.

Dear Barry

I should hope that the above is merely kneejerk reaction - perhaps the thread might be moved to Atheist's Corner or deleted if really necessary. However, it's rather too easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater in more ways than one . . .

The raw plain fact is that organs are in danger - as we see in Tunbridge Wells on account of the organ that I am to see and inspect with a view to its export - in a well heeled community in which the existence of God is in danger and precisely because the percieved existence of God is in danger.

It's for that reason that if we are to see increased enthusiasm in the organ as an instrument, the substrate for much of its use is also worthy of discussion as Tunbridge Wells is proving that one does not exist without the other . . . Can it do so? If it does then we need to ensure that it can within that context.

How can God be seen to be more relevant to society?
http://www.organmatters.co.uk/Tunbridge-Wells-Vale-Royal-William-Sweetland-1883.htm

We have a problem.

That is the real relevance of this thread.

That problem is arguably well worthy of discussion.

Alternatively we can keep a comfortable cosy consensus here of people who like organs and allow organs and God to disappear quietly together . . .

Best wishes

David P

[Barry Williams]

Dear David,

Thank you.

I have decided to withdraw from the Forum forever.  Ther are too many side issues promoted to be of real value to pipe organs.  Indeed, some of those issues, particularly temperaments, actually detract from the promotion of organs.

Please delete my membership.

Yours sincerely,

Barry

[twanguitar]

I certainly agree this thread has nothing whatever to do with organs, and it brings the forum into disrepute.  It's little more than a laughing stock!  However, while the thread (or the forum itself) still exists, can I pose a question?

I have tried to read every single post in this "corner" this afternoon, and as far as I can see not one person has made any reference to Christianity being about personal experience of God through direct revelation in some way.  Surely that is one of its strengths?  Or maybe I have just missed it?

TG

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

@Twanguitar - I may not have phrased it in the same way as you, but I'm pretty sure that I've commented that Christianity is a relationship with God, not just a system of belief.  It's more about experiencing the presence of God than arguments about theology - maybe I should try harder on the forum to make that clear!

God's truth is revealed through creation and through the Bible, both of which are available to all - in this country at least.

Every Blessing

Tony

[organforumadmin]

I certainly agree this thread has nothing whatever to do with organs, and it brings the forum into disrepute.  It's little more than a laughing stock!

Disrepute? Why? Among whom?

The fact is that organs are declining in numbers on account of the buildings in which they are housed being marginalised out of the mainstream of society any sort of experience of "direct revelation in some way".

It cannot be a matter for disrepute that the point is made that the decline in appreciation of organs and the decline in perception of relevance of God and christianity in society is linked.

There is one solution to dealing with the "disrepute" caused by negative perceptions of such a linkage and that is to remove the facilities to have direct access to most recent posts. This will enable people to read and post in areas of the forum which they regard to be of constructive interest without a constant reminder of an area of discussion of which some people wish to have no knowledge.

Alternatively, those wishing to make negative or unkind comments or even to think such things might usefully look at the means of success achieved by way of Darwinistic Atheism or by Divine Belief, the same, outlined by Four Foot in http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,819.0.html


The organ is in danger. Those wishing to see it appreciated more widely will find success in working together rather than splitting apart in discord. There are many reasons for discord but they normally remain only within the individual.


Best wishes


Forum Admin

[twanguitar]

I'm off!

If I can find out how to terminate my membership I'll do so.  Otherwise will you please do it for me.

TG

[KB7DQH]

As of late there hasn't been a whole lot of current, recent news relevant to the "King of Instruments" and so I have engaged in a bit of semi-random searching, and, well, one thing leads to another...

I seem to remember reading the following some time ago

http://www.juilliard.edu/journal/2007-2008/0709/articles/0709_organ.php#top

but for whatever reason have never brought this important article to the forum's attention... either that or it got lost in the first server crash :o

But in support of David's statement

The fact is that organs are declining in numbers on account of the buildings in which they are housed being marginalised out of the mainstream of society any sort of experience of "direct revelation in some way".

It cannot be a matter for disrepute that the point is made that the decline in appreciation of organs and the decline in perception of relevance of God and christianity in society is linked.

I submit the following:

Is There a Future for the King of Instruments?
By DANIEL SULLIVAN

Last April, Juilliard sponsored a high-profile panel discussion on the current position and future of the organ in the 21st century. The brainchild of Paul Jacobs, chairman of Juilliard's organ department and the current holder of the Schuman Scholars Chair, this event featured guest speakers from major media outlets (Craig Whitney from The New York Times and Barbara Jepson of The Wall Street Journal) as well as two members of Juilliard's own faculty: the composer Samuel Adler and Greg Sandow, a veteran critic now working as a composer and specialist on the future of classical music.

(BIG snip...)

Another subject addressed by the panel was the complicated interface between the organ and the church. Sandow indicated his belief that the organ is "a little bit hobbled by its association with the church," whose politics and doctrinal stances are at times offensive to some members of a potential audience. Later on, Jacobs read from a letter to the editor in the December 2004 edition of The Juilliard Journal written by James Keller, the program annotator for the N.Y. Philharmonic. In it, Keller wrote about his refusal to attend two organ concerts out of a concern that even a small percentage of ticket sales would support the churches' anti-abortion and anti-homosexual advocacy. Keller's letter drew strong responses from several readers in the following issue (February 2005), each one objecting to his argument. Sandow defended Keller, saying he "would feel justified in declining to support art of whatever greatness if it was sponsored by people whose political agenda was quite damaging." Adler offered the idea that such attitudes as expressed by Sandow would prevent people from enjoying the music of Wagner, a notorious anti-Semite. Alluding to Keller's account of his refusal to attend an organ concert because he would have had to walk past a church's artificial cemetery decrying abortion in order to get to the concert, Whitney wished that Keller would have "closed his eyes and opened his ears."

It would logically follow that an internet forum created to ensure a future for the King of Instruments
would necessarily include areas devoted to exploring its role in the institutions which are served by
its presence...  all of them.  And especially those institutions which make greatest use of organs.
It would also logically follow that if those institutions which make greatest use of organs are becoming
"marginalised" then, too, so is the instrument :o :'(

Eric
KB7DQH