Organ matters - Organs matter!

Organs in danger => Organs in danger => Topic started by: pwhodges on October 29, 2010, 08:41:33 PM

Title: Too late...
Post by: pwhodges on October 29, 2010, 08:41:33 PM
Sometimes the first hint is too late:

http://www.mander-organs.com/discussion/index.php?showtopic=2972&hl=

:'(
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on October 30, 2010, 01:43:52 AM
Dear Paul

Thanks so much for alerting us on this one. This is the very raison d'etre for the existence of this forum and why I exhort members and guests to share their enthusiasm. Feeding the boilers of enthusiasm is, at times I feel, rather like shovelling coal.

These are the photos appearing there:-

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs397.ash2/67556_543029522366_4502397_31817814_5133581_n.jpg)

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs945.snc4/73802_543072012216_4502397_31818415_154601_n.jpg)

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: barniclecompton on October 30, 2010, 08:20:35 PM
Bloody hell  :o thats just.....disgusting.
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Holditch on October 30, 2010, 10:54:17 PM
I suspect some funamental break down in leadership has happened at this church, it seems to me to be a shear act of vandalism.

I'm sure there is more than meets the eye! There has to be!
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Jonathan Lane on October 31, 2010, 04:40:02 AM
There is some information that one of the advisors to the church prior to destruction of the organ was **** Organs.
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: KB7DQH on October 31, 2010, 09:12:08 AM
This actually goes beyond the bounds of "vandalism" or even "Felony Malicious Mischief" straight to

"Organicide in the First Degree" :'( :'( :'(

And to think a member of the congregation of this church VOLUNTEERED their time to construct which on the face of things appears to be a magnificent and beautiful instrument...

Regardless of whatever faults may have plagued the instrument to "salvage" the pipework and destroy the rest is simply beyond words...

Eric
KB7DQH
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on October 31, 2010, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Jonathan Lane on October 31, 2010, 04:40:02 AM
There is some information that one of the advisors to the church prior to destruction of the organ was Allen Organs.

Aah! So often the case. A vested interest lurking in the background.

It's for this reason that I _hate_ the electronic organ commercial community clocking up electronic organ pipe organ replacements on their trophy-hunters' scoreboards with a vengence.

It's also the reason why, although I use a variety of electronics for the concert instrument for purpose of exciting people about the organ repertoire, I'll refuse to state in public the details of how I get speakers on the instrument to make it sound great, even if that means getting chucked out of the Hauptwerk forum. Anyone buying a commercial electronic organ of whatever make or technology must remain happy to accept that they're getting second best. Carlo Curley proved that to an audience at Chiddingly in Sussex when the imported 3 manual Makin sounded like a hi-fi system in comparison to the one manual gem of an instrument that the parish had just had restored. http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D04239

If the Albany parish think their getting better out of an Allen than their pipe organ, as they probably did not pay the full cost of their pipe organ and therefore did not appreciate it, their perception of their ears will probably be proportional to the price they pay. I hope Allen charge them well!

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Jonathan Lane on November 01, 2010, 03:58:53 AM
The problem with commercial electronic organ speaker systems is that they cannot recreate the sound of a pipe organ with the number and size of speakers they provide.  Apart from the vandelism that is caused by the installers themselves, for which a good example is an organ we are about to acquire, which when one well known English electronic organ firm installed the speakers in the organ case, they trampled some of the pipes, and just heaped the rest into the Swell box.  The pipe organ will be restored, lovingly, as it is the organ I learnt to play on!  However, back to speakers, my understanding, and I'm sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong, is that to fully recreate the sound of a pipe organ, we need a speaker to represent each pipe, and one of appropriate size.  This matched to a fully sampled organ, not just sampling one note from a rank and recreating it throughout the compass.  This latter point is particularly true if you want to recreate a French romantic organ, where the pressures vary thoughout the compass and the scaling means a straight octave transposition of the sound does not reflect the actual size of the pipe an octave higher or lower.

Jonathan
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on November 01, 2010, 06:24:31 AM
Dear Jonathan

Yes - I agree with you. Trying to reproduce an organ through conventional speakers, even in multiples, is like squeezing the sound through the portholes of a ship, the portholes being the diameter of the speakers concerned. Clearly it's not going to be entirely successful . . .

To be perfectly blunt, I don't think there is any harm in naming any electronic speaker installers who in their actions have made a pipe organ less restorable in the future by reason of damaging pipework. It might make such companies more accountable to the heritage and more responsible in the future.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: KB7DQH on November 01, 2010, 10:04:15 AM
http://poststar.com/news/local/article_a47cf020-e557-11df-8631-001cc4c03286.html (http://poststar.com/news/local/article_a47cf020-e557-11df-8631-001cc4c03286.html)
http://wnyt.com/article/stories/S1824355.shtml?cat=300 (http://wnyt.com/article/stories/S1824355.shtml?cat=300)
An obituary... :'( :'( :'(

For those on the Mander list  :-X  who actually questioned the validity of the claims that this actually happened :o :o :o   the above link should put to rest any illusions that this is an illusion...

I suspect there may be even more "intrigue" than just greedy electronic organ suppliers...

Eric
KB7DQH
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Jonathan Lane on November 01, 2010, 01:24:26 PM
Thank you Eric.  And I'm just waiting for Manders to remove the thread, they have a habit if its in the least bit controversial!

Jonathan
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on November 01, 2010, 08:16:34 PM
Hi!

Thanks Eric for the update! I suspect that it's an early onset of Seasonal Affective Disorder as it's clear the instrument blocked a window. Perhaps there were some that simply wanted light and thought it should never have been placed there in the first place . . .

Quote from: Jonathan Lane on November 01, 2010, 01:24:26 PM
Thank you Eric.  And I'm just waiting for Manders to remove the thread, they have a habit if its in the least bit controversial!

Perhaps we should check the source of information naming the particular electronic organ producer and possibly expunge the name from these posts? In contrast, direct evidence of a company vandalising pipes in the course of installing speakers speaks for itself.

The facebook updates show the situation to be even more bizarre - no it's not cracks in the building this time, it's sparks in the wiring . . . clearly irrepairable on an instrument with purely mechanical action: ;D

QuoteStephen Best I just heard why the Queensbury TRACKER organ was destroyed: it was because of the wiring. The organ was arcing and it could have burned the church down. That made the instrument such a huge liability that it couldn't be given to another church. Honest to goodness -- I couldn't possibly make this up. :-/
15 hours ago · Comment · LikeUnlike

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            Mari Reive what?
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            John Jurgensen Couldn't it have been rewired at the offending place(s)?
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            John Jurgensen Meanwhile, all the pipework has been thrown away.
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Lori Bennett Meszler They don't have electricians in Queensbury?
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Agnes Armstrong ‎... must have been all that electric key action!
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 2 peopleStephen Best and Zachary Uram like this.
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            Cody Mead Absolutely unbelievable.... a shame.
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Sarah Bach ahhhh I see....
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            John Jurgensen Even if it was all electric key, I find it very difficult to believe that every single connection would be arcing.
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Stephen Best All those tracker action parts had serious electrical issues. OMC OMG OMG. (Shaking head in disbelief!)
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            John Jurgensen They should've told them that you can't run the hair dryer AND the organ blower at the same time.
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Stephen Best Read this carefully: this was a TRACKER ACTION organ, a MECHANICAL ACTION organ. Does everyone "get it" now?
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 6 peopleLoading...
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            Ed Kemp in an early morning post from reliable source in the Albany diocese:
            "And no, the pastor has no shame. The "safety" concerns are bogus."
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personZachary Uram likes this.
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            Stephen Best We're told that the pipework (Stinkens and Letourneau) was all trucked back to Connecticut, neatly packed in pipe trays, so that it could be thrown away there. That kept the church from having to deal with recycling issues. (That reminds me -- I have a bridge for sale. Any takers?)
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 3 people3 people like this.
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            Rees Roberts What's more of a liability issue is all of the hot air coming out of the preachers mouth.
            15 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Thomas Dressler
            Wikipedia: "A lie is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a ...punishment or repercussion for one's actions. To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth. A liar is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly . . ."See more
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            Thomas Dressler Catholic Encyclopedia: "But if the common teaching of Catholic theology on this point be admitted, and we grant that lying is always wrong, it follows that we are never justified in telling a lie, for we may not do evil that good may come: the end does not justify the means."
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            Thomas Dressler Also Catholic Encyclopedia: "St. Raymund . . . allows that others teach that a lie should be told when a man's life is at stake."
            14 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Thomas Dressler wonders whether his lifelong love of playing tracker organs has been much more dangerous than he ever thought. :)
            14 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Stephen Best One can't be too careful. Those old style organs don't have proper grounding. :-)
            14 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Rene Marceau Unless there was electric stop action, the ONLY other need for electricity was the blower! It may be an over simplification, but examining the wiring and the blower could have averted this tragedy!
            14 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Stephen Best ‎@Rene: No...the outcome was predetermined. I'm sure there are other "justifications" waiting in reserve.
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            Rene Marceau Thanks, Stephen! Just a little slow on the upbeat!
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            William Hubert Is this electrical issue from Foley Baker as well ? Actually there was electric stop action at least in regards to the combination action i.e electrically moved the stops on or off. I don't know if it was with a linear motor or electric pneumatic mechanisims however I did't see any of that in the dumpster. Or the useless worthless blower or the wooden keyboards that no one would want.
            14 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Nancy Long unplug and call an electrician? If all else fails, put it on Ebay to the highest bidder and by a keyboard for every choir member with the profits.
            14 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Rees Roberts Actually Stephen, those old trackers are quite prone to falling out of the loft. St. Ouen's fell out last year.
            13 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Bill Miller What"s the problem?? We all know that tracker organs have miles of DCC wire and that's a fire hazard... right? <grin>
            13 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Elizabeth Jones Well, Stephen, Stephen, Stephen. How reliaable is your information again? strictly hearsay...strictly hearsay...that appears to be a huge problem here.
            13 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            Zachary Uram whoa
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            Brian Fahey Lets see, a tracker might have lights for the music rack, and another for the pedal board. Certainly the disco lights in the chamber are turned off unless being tuned. That leaves.... The blower. Wow, really sparks my interest.
            12 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Elizabeth Jones Stephen just told me this info came from a friend of his who had emailed the organist. She is not an expert on the organ and I'm sure she wasn't expecting her personal experiences and opinion on the organ to be shared with the world, or to be poked fun at for that matter. It is heresay.
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            Leonardo Ciampa
            Friends: my only response to this is: Happy Reformation Day! This morning I did the first movement of Bach Cantata 80 at my church, during the service. I'm sorry, but I said all along that this priest was not going to be reprimanded ONE I...OTA for any of this, and now, based on the latest information, I believe this even more strongly. With so many little boys to fondle, and such little time, why do any of us believe, for a second, that any cardinal or bishop is going to concern himself with a lost Open Diapason or Krummhorn? It's over; the battle is lost. My only consolation ... actually I have two of them: the Lutheran Church, and the Episcopal Church. Those are the two institutions that give me hope that good liturgy and good music are not dead.See more
            11 hours ago · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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            Norman Selby Is there any room for legal action to be taken against several parties?
            10 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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            John Lauter Can we start a letter writing campaign to the archdiocese to get this nutcase priest reprimanded? The organ could have been sold and used elsewhere by a congregation that values such an instrument. About this organ: I know it was a tracker--was it a neo Baroque screecher with two fundamental stops and 15 mixtures or was it a nicely balanced, later sound? I am not a fan of trackers, but this instrument did not deserve this treatment.
            6 hours ago · Like

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Jonathan Lane on November 02, 2010, 03:46:28 AM
Apparently the name of the electronic builder in question came directly from the church, althogh even by me it is third hand!
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: KB7DQH on November 02, 2010, 06:18:27 AM
Quoted from Steve Best's post to the Mander list...

QuoteFact: this was Mr. DeMarse's opus 7; he offered to build the organ free of charge if the church paid the cost of material
Fact: about 400 contributors underwrote the cost of this organ; another 180 children each bought one pipe; about 40 volunteers assisted in organ builder as needed
Fact: the organ was unfinished at the time of its dedicatory recital, but was later used successfully for a recital as part of an AGO convention, and was in regular use until Mr. DeMarse's tenure as the church music director ended
Fact: there was a problem with sagging facade pipes; these pipes had been built specifically for the organ by well known firm; proposals to remedy the problem ranged from repair to replacement
Fact: only the firm that ultimately destroyed the organ proclaimed the instrument was beyond salvation
Fact: the direction of the church's music program changed significantly after Mr. DeMarse left as music director
Fact: another church in the same diocese wanted the organ and was prepared spend whatever was required to remove it, store it, and reinstall it; that church had already been in contact with a fine organ builder regarding the project
Fact: there were 48 ranks of pipes, made mostly by Stinkens, some by Letourneau
Fact: there was some extraordinarily fine craftsmanship in this organ; even the keyboards were personally made by Mr. DeMarse
Fact: the recommendations/opinions of David Vredenberg, Diocesan Organ Consultant, were ignored; Mr. Vredenberg has made this fact public knowledge
Fact: only the firm that removed the organ condemned it as beyond saving
Fact: members of the church that wanted the organ, and the organist who had been asked to demonstrate the organ for them, were denied access to the building to see the organ; the following day the dumpster was delivered; the day after that, the organ was destroyed

Perhaps the rest is conjecture. But that much is absolutely true.

And more...

Quote
The following post is from the Diocesan Organ Consultant, David Vredenburg. It speaks for itself:

"The whole affair is an outrage. The pastor took a personal offense to its builder (and the former director of music of the parish) and vowed to get it "trashed and dumped on the builder's lawn" from the start of this whole process. His mind made up, he proceeded to ignore the evaluations of 5 reputable firms that lauded the instrument highly and side with the one firm he convinced, it seems, to trash it verbally.

"He then presented his cooked figures and manipulated facts directly to the Chancellor of the Diocese, bypassing me as the organ consultant (he "didn't trust" my evaluation, since I hadn't sided with him) and obtaining her and the chief financial officer's permission to proceed with the instrument's removal. He was not, however, given permission to "trash" it or prevent its being examined and obtained by any interested parishes.

"I suggest you express your outrage directly to the bishop: The Very Rev. Howard J. Hubbard, D. D.,
The Roman Catholic Diocese of Albany, 40 N. Main Ave., Albany, NY 12203-1422.

"It is, in any case, too late for the organ. I understand it has been totally disassembled, and divided between the dumpster and the Foley-Baker truck. I shall never trust that company again, since it is with their slanted collusion that this has come to pass.

David A. Vredenburg"



QuoteThank you Eric.  And I'm just waiting for Manders to remove the thread, they have a habit if its in the least bit controversial!

Another snippet...

QuoteQUOTE (Clarion Doublette @ Nov 1 2010, 01:54 AM) *
I hope this thread remains.... the freedom of speech surrounding this issue is important. ... In my opinion I still think there were some serious misjudgements made in this case.



Hi all

I've been asked to look at this topic, and I think that it should remain (ie not be deleted) but I will delete the remaining quotes of Sue Wright's e-mail. If you want to know what it said, please refer to "Justadad".

Rachel Mawhood
Moderator, Mander Organs

Eric
KB7DQH

Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Steve Best on November 02, 2010, 07:12:36 AM
Although the Allen Organ Company was listed as one of "consultants" on a "position paper" circulated by the church, the Allen Organ Company was NOT, I repeat, was NOT involved in the destruction of this organ.  The first time that the Allen Organ representative knew that company was listed by the church was when I contacted him yesterday. 

The story of the destruction of this organ is in part reported in a newspaper article of today:

http://poststar.com/news/local/article_a47cf020-e557-11df-8631-001cc4c03286.html

However, if you would like to read more about the saga and are already a member of Facebook, you can add me and read several posts which have been written since last Wednesday.  The link is http://www.facebook.com/stevebest

Thanks for helping get the word out about this unconscionable act of deliberate vandalism. 

Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: KB7DQH on November 02, 2010, 07:25:43 AM
Steve-- Glad you joined us here 8) and have been able to shed some more light on this... well... :o

The Poststar.com article leaves very little information as to "why"...  :'(

Which is why this forum exists...  You know doubt observed the photos on the front page...

If you have time go ahead and view the Youtube video which is embedded...  I watched that one before the "birth" of this forum, I honestly can say I cried while watching that...

Again, thanks for taking the time to become a member and help us understand...

Eric
KB7DQH
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Jonathan Lane on November 02, 2010, 01:34:03 PM
Quote from: Steve Best on November 02, 2010, 07:12:36 AM
Although the Allen Organ Company was listed as one of "consultants" on a "position paper" circulated by the church, the Allen Organ Company was NOT, I repeat, was NOT involved in the destruction of this organ.  The first time that the Allen Organ representative knew that company was listed by the church was when I contacted him yesterday. 


Thanks for this Steve, it is good to hear that Allen weren't complicit.  However, do I still understand that the church claimed that Allen were advisors, whether directly or indirectly.  Perhaps you could clarify this, and if so surely Allen should have some come-back in the law against the church for misrepresentation at the least.  I am relieved that Allen have been cleared, and apologies to them for linking them to this disgraceful act, although I still don't like their organs!, I am a pipe organ builder, so perhaps that is understandable!!

Jonathan
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: organforumadmin on November 02, 2010, 05:18:32 PM
Hi!


Welcome new members!


Free speech and in particular independence from any manufacturers is fundamental to stoking the fires of boilers of enthusiasm . . . so that in the future people enjoy, and respect, pipe organs.


Whilst it's said that all publicity is good publicity, it is of concern here that the name of an electronic manufacturer has been linked here as a negative influence. I would add, however, that elsewhere on this forum mention has been made of that same electronic manufacturer having produced an instrument in the 1960s which is now being replaced by a pipe organ, and possibly regrettably as the instrument from what we saw in the videos was a fine instrument and that even though it was electronic, it was such a mammoth opus and effective into the bargain, that people would have had reason to seek its preservation. It was certainly inspiring enough to cause the parish to want to build a real pipe organ - and so this electronic producer should be applauded in the cause of pipe organ enthusiasm.


I would ask people who have mentioned the name to think responsibly about whether the name should be linked to this subject matter and to alter their posts substituting the words "electronic manufacturer" instead. What has been said about the behaviour of other electronic manufacturers, trampling pipes etc, is of great relevance in generality to pipe organ preservation issues - and that's what this forum is about.


Best wishes


ForumAdmin
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on November 02, 2010, 05:28:16 PM
What really pisses me off is the following:
QuoteThe removal of the organ was completed last week by Foley-Baker Inc., which will send the pipes to a hazard waste facility due to a lead issue

A seemingly reputable 42-year-old firm dealing in new pipe organs and restoration of old ones, giving such a negative assessment and seeing that the pipework is destroyed? Organ pipes have lead in them, get over it... I bet the priest persuaded them to make damn sure every little bit of it was destroyed... seems EXTREMELY fishy to me.

Good that the DOC is hopping mad - hopefully if enough people write to the bishop (and copy their letters/emails to the press) he'll have to take notice and do something... but I won't hold my breath. Catholic bishops are generally pretty bad - add in the bovine stupidity typical of so many Americans and you've got a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Jonathan Lane on November 03, 2010, 04:58:02 AM
Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on November 02, 2010, 05:28:16 PM
What really pisses me off is the following:
QuoteThe removal of the organ was completed last week by Foley-Baker Inc., which will send the pipes to a hazard waste facility due to a lead issue

A seemingly reputable 42-year-old firm dealing in new pipe organs and restoration of old ones, giving such a negative assessment and seeing that the pipework is destroyed?

We agree about something!  Of course, it by far the worse to recycle the pipes than re-use them!
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Steve Best on November 14, 2010, 07:40:37 AM
At the request of this group's moderator, I am sending along this partial update on the situation involving the demolitiong of an organ in upstate New York:

The saga of the destruction of the 2003 DeMarse three manual tracker organ continues.  The organ is gone, but the controversy which has followed continues unabated.  You will recall that this instrument was located in Our Lady of the Annunciation Roman Catholic Church in Queensbury, NY.   Containing 48 ranks of metal pipes by Stinkens and Letourneau and some larger wooden pipes from Organ Supply Industries, the instrument was destroyed in late October in a move which stunned many, including the diocesan organ consultant, who had worked long and hard to relocate the instrument.  Indeed, just days before the organ's destruction, a group of parishioners from another church had arranged to have the organ demonstrated, a meeting that was abruptly canceled by the Annunciation pastor, who denied these people to the building.  The next day, the organ was destroyed.  The Glens Falls (NY) Post Gazette reported that "The removal of the organ was completed last week by Foley-Baker Inc., which will salvage some parts like the blower and send the pipes to a hazard waste facility due to a lead issue, according to Busch."  Mr. Busch is the resident priest at Annunciation church. 

In the days following the organ's destruction, support for organ builder Harold DeMarse has come from all over the world.  Multiple organ builders which had examined the organ and made suggestions for repairing any deficiencies and/or removing the organ to a new home registered their outrage.   David A. Vredenburg, organ consultant for Roman Catholic Diocese of Albany, whose recommendations were summarily ignored, has proven to be a pillar of strength and support.  Donors whose gifts made the organ possible have undertaken a determined effort to set the record straight. Investigative reporters are probing background information which has not yet been made public.  Musicians from across the USA and many other countries have contacted the Rev. Howard Hubbard, bishop of the diocese.  There is much more going on behind the scenes.

This story is far from being over even though the organ has been destroyed.  I will report more as I am able, but I certainly don't want to jeopardize ongoing efforts to salvage some good from such a lamentable situation. 
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on November 14, 2010, 03:16:26 PM
Thank you for that update. We all need to give that bishop an holy bollocking, so to speak... mind you, given that he's a Catholic bishop, he probably won't listen. Mine is absolutely [inappropiate word deleted] useless!  >:(
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Rejoice! on November 15, 2010, 05:29:01 AM
Mr. Best,

Are you aware that Mr. Vredenberg is categorically denying having given you any information, i.e. confidential Diocese documents that you quote, that he has not asked you to speak on his behalf, and he is insisting that he knows nothing of your personal online mission regarding the Annunciation organ. Are you aware of this, and if this is true, where are you getting your information from?  If it's not true, then why is he declaring innocence?   I do hope investigative work, as you have indicated, continues, so that the public may know the truth in this matter, as clearly it is very shifty at this point.
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on November 15, 2010, 06:41:27 AM
Hi!

I'm wondering if on the facts that are very obvious, the following is a fair summary?

1. An organ was built and donated to the church below full cost and by public subscription some dozen years ago.
2. The builder of the organ was an organist associated with the church.
3. There was a change of organist and clearly the organ lost its aural shine in another's hands
4. There were some minor problems requiring maintenance to some extent
5. In the knowledge that the church had fallen out of love with the instrument, at least one other church was keen to obtain it
6. The instrument ended up largely in a rubbish skip instead of what we on this forum as organ preservationists would regard as responsible rehousing elsewhere, leading to our perspective that wanton destruction has taken place?

The administrators of this forum wish to maintain this forum as a place of free speech and fair comment. I'm sure that many readers will be pleased not to see gratuitous use of four letter words converted into gerunds . . .

Organs should be the instruments of gentle men and ladies who can both accompany with manners and have the guts to pull out the high pressure reeds when necessary . . . and so we much look forward to the results of the ongoing investigations in this matter. However, it's apparent that at this stage somne sort of diplomatic negotiations are bound to be going on somewhere or other. In the Atheist's Corner I have written about the Grove of Nemi where any challenger to the Priest may take up the golden bough with his sword and kill the Priest, and thereafter have to defend his position from future challenges. This sort of process happens especially when people's jobs are on the line, and it is unreasonable in such circumstances to expect or obtain full information.

We look forward to further instalments about what really was going on in Albany and how and why what appears to be corporate vandalism in terms of organicide took place.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on November 16, 2010, 04:38:03 PM
Quote from: Rejoice! on November 15, 2010, 05:29:01 AM
Mr. Best,

Are you aware that Mr. Vredenberg is categorically denying having given you any information, i.e. confidential Diocese documents that you quote, that he has not asked you to speak on his behalf, and he is insisting that he knows nothing of your personal online mission regarding the Annunciation organ. Are you aware of this, and if this is true, where are you getting your information from?  If it's not true, then why is he declaring innocence?   I do hope investigative work, as you have indicated, continues, so that the public may know the truth in this matter, as clearly it is very shifty at this point.

And where do you get this information from? Sounds very fishy...
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Rejoice! on November 16, 2010, 07:14:01 PM
Investigative work is ongoing, as Mr. Best states.  How do you know what is true and what isn't, when the individuals who started the current online "Battle of Queensbury" (LOL) don't participate in the posts, but have a spokesperson representing them?  That's very fishy, to say the least...actually there are other phrases I could use, but that wouldn't be gentlemanly. 
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on November 17, 2010, 12:55:43 AM
Hi!

Spokesperson? I'm not sure I understand this. Steve Best has informed us directly of what's going on through this thread or are you saying that Steve is a spokesperson for someone else?

Perhaps you might explain your position: there's a lot of fog around over Britain at the moment so our vision across the pond is slightly nebulously obscured.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: KB7DQH on November 17, 2010, 02:21:34 AM
I suspect the "fog" continues right  up to the corporate limits of  Queensbury ;)  Possibly to the doorstep of the Our Lady of the Annunciation RCC,  Maybe even inside the head Mr. Busch...

Eric
KB7DQH
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Steve Best on November 17, 2010, 04:43:01 AM
I speak for no one other than myself -- an individual who finds it incomprehensible that a major instrument with many redeeming qualities -- note, I did not say this was a PERFECT organ -- has been lost.  This particular instrument is a mere 100 miles from my home, and its destruction has been widely reported and discussed in upstate New York.  After all, the instrument was known to those who attended the AGO 2003 regional convention recital on the organ.

Yes, the dedicatory recital was less than a resounding success, and I reported on that event for what it was.  Following is a part of my review which is often overlooked:

"I still have hopes that this organ can be finished and take its place as one of the finer instruments in its area. Mr. DeMarse is noted for exquisite craftsmanship and attention to every detail, and given enough time, I can only hope that his determined effort and skill will make up for what has to be considered a major setback. However, scheduling a recital at this stage of the organ's development was a most unfortunate mistake.

"Lastly, I wish more people would take seriously my number one inviolable rule for dedicatory recitals: NEVER NEVER NEVER even think of scheduling a dedicatory recital until the organ is 100% finished and has been played enough to identify and correct any problems."

The organ is, of course, gone.  If reports in the Glens Falls newspaper are to be believed, 48 ranks of Stinkens and Letourneau pipework have been delivered to a hazardous waste facility because of the lead content of the pipes.  Alas....



Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on November 17, 2010, 05:42:55 AM
Marcel Dupré opened the Westminster Cathedral organ with less than half of it even there  ;D
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on November 17, 2010, 05:05:06 PM
Hi!

In relation to the idea that one should not do a dedicatory recital before 100% completion, I think that the sad thing is an appaling lack of imagination, understanding and intelligence of many people, if not coloured by a pure jealousy not of material things but actually of effort.

This results in a predisposition to rubbish things that have wonderful potential. This goes hand in hand with people who cannot see wonderful opportunities staring them in the face, and thereby don't take them.

How many organists have yet taken the opportunity to display their programmes and enthusiasm yet in the concerts section of this forum? Of course if the organ isn't worth shouting about, it's not worthy of being listened to.

How many organ builders have talked about wonderful projects they are undertaking on this forum? Why not? And that is why, with dead people running the show, the organ is dying with them.

So it is with inaugural recitals. So it was with the Peter Collins instrument at Trono which was rubbished because people had neither the understanding nor imagination to consider what would be the result with some tweaks on a potentiometer or two - and worse - he committed the cardinal sin of showing initiative and a willingness to experiment. And worse still, the IOB thought that it would threaten jobs in the pipe organ industry. There's always a vested interest lurking in the background.

And then there's the Golden Bough (see Atheist's corner) - since time immemorial we have set up Kings as Gods only then to knock them down to prove that they are mortal after all . . . and these primitive motives colour humankind's progress in lurches. Coming full circle, we then find that we are as primitive as the times of myth ever were.

For my own part, it has been an honour to work with Hugh Potton at Hammerwood, who did the inaugural recital on the organ at Hammerwood then fresh from Londonderry and had the sheer imagination to understand. But not appreciating what the instrument in its setting can do, Ann Marsden Thomas in London won't: "everyone has toasters at home" - without realising or wanting to understand the special facility that exists only a short train ride out from London. Similarly YouTube videos of the instrument recorded with the camera microphone with automatic volume control are often derided by people who cannot understand that were one to take the camera into a pipe chamber, one would get no better result. Mander summarily dismissed me from the Mander Forum overtly for having posted a YouTube video of an amusing attempt at sheer FUN with the 1812 Overture accompanied by explosions from attempts to burst 50 balloons at once. It could have been better, but it was fun and audiences have asked me when we're going to do it again.  . . .

That's what encouraging enthusiasm is all about - is any organist game for doing another FUN recital?

The Mander response was that I was bringing the instrument into disrepute. I had also at about the same time mentioned the Taboo of hybrid organs . . . a subject that simply _must_not_ be discussed.

If Repute means Death, so be it. I want to enliven Life - and the organ can do it!

It's a pleasure to see that undiscoraged, Peter Collins has used his hybrid experience to enable a pipe organ to provide good and useful enjoyment whilst preserving unusable sections in mothballs for a day when later the pipes can come back to life: http://stmaryhighamferrers.co.uk/organ.aspx . This is a valid use of hybridisation facilities.

Since that time, adventurous and brilliant musicians such as Mark Shepheard, David Goode, D'Arcy Trinkwon, Hugh Potton again, Clive Driskill Smith and Jeremy Filsell, excited by the tonal possibilities for experiment that the five manuals and the vaste disposition of stops create, have all suffered with me my gradual taming of the beast, bringing stops under piston control, but have all enjoyed bringing repertoire which can be played on large and disparate instruments to audiences in intimate surroundings. Meanwhile audiences have enjoyed the sheer grandeur of scale of the repertoire of the King of Instruments as well as experiencing the sheer virtuosity of musicians.

It annoys me considerably that people look only towards appearances and the sheen of a finished result. One can't tell a sausage by its skin . . . and the skin is irrelevant to the function of the heart. Appearance is all. To some extend this is why deliberately I usually dress in old holely clothes and don't care about my hair, a matter that has brought amusing comment on YouTube videos. It's apparent that others take prejudice upon the sound of my voice.

So it is that people should understand that a half built organ is EXCITING and opens the heart to the sound. People who don't understand that are simply people too limited to have got a fragile machine going - perhaps a model steam engine powered by water and meths, and simply revelled in the achievement of getting such a thing going.

Why can't people simply REJOICE in achievement?

At least the loss of the Albany organ is the ultimate proof of the imaginative inadequacy of the priest in contrast to what might have been lacking in the unfinished instrument. As in the Cruxifiction itself, it's sad that people only understand when they have destroyed or witnessed destruction, and even then, there is always a next time.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on November 17, 2010, 05:12:37 PM
David, that reminds me - within the last year [name removed] was appointed as organist at St Barnabas', [name removed] (a tiny but glorious G. G. Scott mini-Cathedral on the ridge above [name removed], with a huge octagonal crossing tower and a spire that can be seen from miles away in most directions). My mother also applied, but didn't get the job (to state the bl****n' obvious). Since then, though, the job has been re-advertised, saying that [name removed] health had forced him to resign - what's going on?
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on November 17, 2010, 05:18:29 PM
Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on November 17, 2010, 05:12:37 PM
David, that reminds me - within the last year [name removed] was appointed as organist at St Barnabas', Ranmore (a tiny but glorious G. G. Scott mini-Cathedral on the [name removed] Ridge above [name removed], with a huge octagonal crossing tower and a spire that can be seen from miles away in most directions). My mother also applied, but didn't get the job (to state the b****in' obvious). Since then, though, the job has been re-advertised, saying that [name removed] health had forced him to resign - what's going on?

Dear Richard

Thanks for alerting me to this - he's been very quiet recently - I knew he had significant work commitments, and I'll get in touch.

He did a monumental recital including Reubke and Cochereau on the organ, and the recording of Reubke was in my ears one of the most enjoyable I've heard, followed by a piano recital of the largest works including the Prokofiev 8th Sonata - an extract of which I must get onto YouTube sometime. He is a phenomenal musician and a larger than life performer . . .

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: Rejoice! on November 23, 2010, 06:44:30 AM
Mr. Best,

Why don't you post the your entire Felix Hell review of his Q'bury organ concert, just so it's on file for "posterity's" sake, along with everything else you've posted?  From what I've heard, it would be a fun read! It would be the right thing to do...

Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on November 24, 2010, 12:37:43 AM
Quote from: Rejoice! on November 23, 2010, 06:44:30 AMWhy don't you post the your entire Felix Hell review of his Q'bury organ concert, just so it's on file for "posterity's" sake, along with everything else you've posted?  From what I've heard, it would be a fun read! It would be the right thing to do...

Hi!

Today I took an organist through to meet "the beast", good enough to bring much enjoyment to audiences and organists alike, flicked the power switches and . . . it having been in use yesterday sounding superb in preparation for an 18th December concert, with the heating on, now today at a different temperature it sounded really awful. Quite terrible. Lots of sounds I didn't like and didn't balance well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Bozak is interesting in relation to an anecdote about auditioning an organ:
QuoteBozak joined C. G. Conn in 1944 to help them develop an electronic organ. While in Elkhart, Indiana, he noticed that the human sense of hearing was unpredictable at best. Years later, Bozak recounted this story about the Conn electronic organ project: "The general sales manager, who was a pianist and played organ, sat down and played the thing and said it was great, just what we were looking for. A week later he was invited back into the laboratory and sat down and played the instrument again. He didn't play ten or fifteen bars when he said, This goddamn thing doesn't sound right. What did you guys do to it?' We said we hadn't done anything. Well, he didn't believe us. 'You did something to it. You messed it up here,' he said. 'Restore it back to the way you had it.' So what we did was let the damn instrument sit there for another week, and he comes back and plays it again. 'Now this is the way it should be,' he says."[2]

Anyone who wants to judge an organ on one sound one visit registered in a singular style needs their ears, and their heads, tested.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: KB7DQH on December 13, 2010, 02:08:14 AM
It appears more information may become publicly available in due course.

http://poststar.com/app/blogs/?tag=our-lady-of-the-annunciation (http://poststar.com/app/blogs/?tag=our-lady-of-the-annunciation)

Eric
KB7DQH
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: KB7DQH on December 17, 2010, 11:15:27 AM
http://poststar.com/news/local/article_4250a50c-0958-11e0-9d93-001cc4c03286.html?mode=story (http://poststar.com/news/local/article_4250a50c-0958-11e0-9d93-001cc4c03286.html?mode=story)

QuoteA former parishioner of the church, who donated $50,000 toward having the organ built, has questioned the Roman Catholic Diocese of Albany about the removal, and an organ consultant for the diocese has quit in the wake of the instrument's destruction.

QuoteAfter hearing about the dismantling, Judith Krueger sent an e-mail to Albany Bishop Howard Hubbard asking for an investigation of the situation.

Krueger, who now lives in Florida, says she donated $50,000 a decade ago to help install the organ.

"It's very difficult to understand what exactly is going on here for me," Krueger said. "It seems like such a total waste."

Krueger didn't hear back from the bishop, but she did receive a reply to her inquiry from the church pastor, Joseph Busch, who said the matter was referred to him.

Busch's reply reiterated the parish's explanation - that the instrument couldn't be saved and the safety concerns had to be addressed.

"Despite erroneous reports in the blogosphere, no realistic possibilities for relocation of the instrument ever emerged," Busch wrote.

Krueger said she doesn't expect to get her donation back, but the loss leaves her with mixed emotions.

"Now that I see what happened, I'm disappointed, wondering how in the world something like this could happen," she said.

Well... She isn't the only one :o :'(

Eric
KB7DQH
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on December 17, 2010, 07:45:47 PM
What the parish now needs to do is to announce, without permission from any authorities, a fundraising drive to get a worthy replacement - from De Marse, if possible. Let's see how the parish priest tells them he doesn't want however many thousands of dollars...

What makes me really angry here, yet totally fails to surprise me, is that the Bishop can't be arsed to do a bloody thing about it and won't speak to such a generous donor.
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: eun pots on November 16, 2015, 01:56:55 PM
There has been a resurrection of sorts.  Demarse just finished building a replica in another church in the nearby city of Amsterdam.  He played a wonderful recital on the instrument yesterday, 11-15-15.  There were about 100 people in attendance and I will post any links as I find them (if he makes them available). 

A Halloween recital was played on the organ by a different organist a few weeks prior but Harold's recital was the official premier.  Here is a link to the Halloween recital. 
https://youtu.be/SiuVI07UwX0
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: David Pinnegar on November 17, 2015, 11:39:15 PM
What wonderful news!

That YT video is a very exciting instrument indeed.  Thanks for sharing! And please more news when you have it.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: eun pots on November 18, 2015, 03:09:49 AM
Harold spoke for about half an hour about the organ and played a recital consisting of:
Praeludium in D, Buxtehude
Nun Bitten Wir Den Heiligen Geist, Bustehude
Preambule, Vierne
Noel sur les Flutes, Daquin
Chant de Paix, Langlais
Trinity Chhimes, Wilson
Trumpet Voluntary in C, Young,
Noel with Variations, Balbastre. 

Someone recorded it (possibly the previous recital organist) and I'm hoping they will post it.  Their next recital in the unveiling series is December 6 and a dedication concert on January 17.  I'll share the stop list when I re-type it from the program.  The church was also selling pipes from their old organ as a fund raiser.  All the wooden ones sold immediately. 
Title: Re: Too late...
Post by: arpschneider on December 29, 2016, 08:06:21 PM
Have there been any updates on the "research" to the DeMarse organ that was destroyed in Queensbury, NY back in 2010?  I've not heard or seen anything more about that situation in quite some time.  Thanks!