Our organ at St Nicholas-at-Wade (near Margate) is 99% certain to be replaced very soon, pending minor details like a Faculty...
Assuming no hiccoughs, we're looking for someone to disassemble & remove it a.s.a.p. from July 23, as scaffolding starts going up that day for replastering work.
The organ is almost fully working - the roller for the pedals is rusty and one pedal key (middle F) has pulled through so is inoperative, but everything else is fine (a bit of tuning needed). It is in use, can be heard working, and can be played if wanted. The spec is here: www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N12907 (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N12907). It's OK for small services, weddings, etc. although it lacks reeds, pistons and similar mod cons. We're not sure who made it, but it arrived in the church 2nd hand around 1930.
I'm debating put it up on an auction site, although if someone here offered a donation via private message, meaning more money goes to the fabric fund instead of eBay Inc., I'm sure that would be a better solution. I can supply basic photos and so on if needed.
You cannot remove the organ without a Faculty, what is it going to be replaced with?
Best wishes
Barrie
I would say:
Have you called in the Diocesan Organ Advisor?
Have you taken independent advice (yes, it costs money).
If they have both recommended getting rid of the organ, have you made reasonable attempts to find a new home for it? This takes time - a lot of time.
Making way for plastering does not sound like best practise to me.
Paul
Dont panic chaps - Ben has everything in hand
Thanks Robin. I didn't realize my original post would be so misleading!
BD> what is it going to be replaced with?
Another (far better) organ.
BD> You cannot remove the organ without a Faculty
I know. We are just pushing time on the numerous faculties needed for several projects proceeding more or less at the same time; the organ side was delayed due to circumstances beyond our control. We are confident (and have been advised) we will get the faculty -- but there's always a 1% chance of something unforeseen cropping up, which is the only reason I put 99%.
PT> Have you called in the Diocesan Organ Advisor?
Yes of course. He recommended getting rid of it years ago, if we could find a replacement, which we now have, and which he has approved.
PT> Have you taken independent advice
Yes, from numerous parties
PT> have you made reasonable attempts to find a new home for it? This takes time - a lot of time
That's why I posted here, as I assumed it was the quickest way to reach a large number of potentially interested parties. Unfortunately we do not have much time. We did have a new home arranged until very recently, when it fell through.
PT> Making way for plastering does not sound like best practise to me.
We are making way for a new organ. Plastering is happening within the same set of projects, making use of the fact the church will be closed. It is reasonable (surely best practice too) to (a) time the removal of an old organ to occur before it is covered in dust -- which will coincidentally make the plasterers' work easier and also save money on organ protection measures; (b) time the installation of a new organ to occur after the dust has settled.
I hope this makes things clearer. I have to say, some of the advice we have received includes the comment that selling the pipes to a metal merchant may generate more cash than we would receive otherwise for the organ. Regrettable, but this cannot be ignored.
Hi Ben
Thank you for clarifying the situation for us, we all know what an awkward beast the C of E can be at times!!
Can you please keep us informed as the project progresses in the section New Organs, it would be really good to follow the development of this project.
Best wishes
Barrie
An update. Having received no offers for the full organ, and having decided against eBay (few organs seem to attract any serious interest, so it would be a waste of a listing fee), I contacted some metal merchants, who admitted they had no experience of organs (a good sign!), but said that assuming most of the metalwork was zinc or lead, we might get up to £1/kg, which implies around £5-600 total (our local organ builders estimated the weight). One did a little research first and said "there may be some pewter, which we'd have to send off for analysis, but if so, the price could rise to £4/kg". Apparently tin is around 10x the value of lead/zinc, as can be found from the daily figures on the LME website, but the percentage varies a lot. The organ builders did not think there would actually be much tin included.
Having weighed the largest front pipe, it seems to be around 7kg, i.e. probably worth £7 as scrap but just a chance of up to £28. I did a straw poll of a few choir members and friends who had got married there, suggesting they might want to pay e.g. £20 per pipe to have one as a souvenir, on their mantelpiece, etc. Almost everyone immediately replied that they would want at least one. Some are keen to pay the same even for the wooden pipes (which would otherwise have virtually no value), on the basis of the graffiti from past generations of choir boys! So this implies that although the old organ might disappear, much of its skeleton may remain within the village -- and it is quite likely to raise more than we would simply from the metal merchants. The tubing inside would of course still go to the merchants.
The current plan is therefore to record its final voice, then dismantle the organ next week, and store the pipes somewhere off-site until as many as possible can be sold to individuals (we have not advertised this yet, for obvious reasons, but I sense there is no great rush: future visitors to the church or those whose ancestors are buried there may also be interested). The remaining wood panels may go for scrap, and the inner piping to a merchant. It will be sad to see it go, but wonderful to have a replacement in a few months' time.
One quick question: we are planning on dismantling it ourselves, as the organ builders said it is quite straightforward, so are currently thinking along the lines of a few burly parishioners with screwdrivers (and hammers if really needed). Apart from the possibility of asbestos which I have just noticed from another thread, is there anything else we ought to be wary of?
Hi!
This is most distressing news.
It is utter vandalism.
I'm sure that if you put it onto ebay for £100 it will give it a wider exposure and someone may well take it on.
Best wishes
David P
Hi
Apart from the basses, which MAY be Zinc, organ pipes are a mix of tin & lead - so perhaps not so attractive to a scrap merchant - and the price you get will in no way compare to the cost of new pipes.
Every Blessing
Tony
We would usually have no hesitation in taking this, however, we have no time until at least October and currently no storage space left, currently storing seven organs including a 48 speaking stop three manual Nicholson.
What is so special about this organ? We can't save them all.
Unless there is a definite location for the instrument to be re-homed (most likely a residence, given it's size), let it go.
For a similar amount of effort, a more deserving organ of known provenance and greater interest could be saved. There is limited manpower, money and locations available. It is lamentable that organs have been so very much in declining fashion for the last 40 years or so. However, with more surplus organs available than places looking for one, we much concentrate on the best.
A better one to look at was the Brindley & Foster at Tywyn LL36, discussed a few months back.
Simon.
I agree with the sentiment Simon, however, I would say its always worth saving pipework, and if we had time I would just go to collect that. Biggest problem here is we don't know the provenance, it may well be Hill, G&D, etc., in which case, we could easily use the pipework in various organs we are currently working on.
Sadly, it seems as though the parish concerned have decided that selling off the pipes as 'souvenirs' is likely to raise more money than selling the organ intact. If this is the case, then there is unlikely anything that we, as a forum, can do to save it. The parish seem to have 'forgotten' about the value of the blower, windchests, action and bellows and seem willing to go in with hammers and saws to break it up. As David says, pure vandalism. I remember the same thing happening at a local independent school a few years ago - they went in with chainsaws to cut out the lead conveyances. A local organ builder was able to save some of the pipework which has subsequently been reused in a local church, but the organ - a perfectly reasonable 3-manual - has been lost and a revolting toaster has replaced it. I recently noticed that the 3-manual Vowles in Holy Trinity, Barnstaple is still on the BIOS website. I was a kid at the primary school and would love to see that one saved. The trouble is that there are too many organs being thrown out and too few people with the space and money to save them. Future generations will curse what our generation is doing.
N
Please please please do not get rid of the organ by selling its pipes either to your congregation or to a scrap metal merchant.
I recently helped a small chapel save a single manual + pedal instrument, so I know it can be done. And we had a very tight timetable for disposal.
(See: http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,1180.0.html)
Now: we could have sold our instrument several times over. You need to do the following:
1. Take a video of the organ being played and put it on Youtube under some kind of title referring to a functioning complete pipe organ available for a small sum;
2. Take some photographs and put them on this forum;
3. Email or message me and I will send you the email addresses of some people who would have purchased the organ I was involved with, execpt that it had already been found a good home.
Your parochial church council need their heads examining!
No pipe organ should ever need to be scrapped - I consider it to be a major crime when that happens.
Regards to all,
Kenneth Spencer (You can see the organ we saved on Youtube, and on this forum.)
Can someone tell me what is so special about this organ?
No one was interested for a fortnight when a little warning was given. No doubt within that fortnight more than one other, more significant instrument was broken up without so so much as a mention.
Don't get me wrong, it it were next door and I hadn't embarked on the project I have I might have considered it.
With organs of all types (toasters and pipe) seriously out of fashion in both contemporary music and ecclesial 'worship groups', there are more instruments than can be accomodated in new homes or perenial storage. To deserve attention, it needs to be special.
Simon.
Further to Simon's recommendation, I can vouch for the quality of the Tywyn instrument (having visited it a couple of weeks ago).
More to follow...
A friend on facebook who trained with Nicholsons comments:
QuoteI tuned this organ almost 50 years ago! If I remember rightly, it had a beautiful Flute on the Swell.
This pipework is worth salvaging for other organs.
Sometimes it is better to direct one's life in the path of faith rather than expediency. Expediency says "scrap it" but the life of faith directs one to abide by principles - "Don't waste. Respect the work of and gifts of one's forbears - make available what you don't need to others".
The real value of the worked metal which can produce beautiful sound is more than merely that of scrap metal.
One has to stand up for what is right, even if that might not find favour with others.
If one sticks to the principles one meets others with whom one can work the Construction Force. If not one merely unconstructs. It all depends upon whether one wants to grow the crop or merely be compost upon which a later crop can be grown by someone else.
Best wishes
David P
It seems to me that in this case the church has found a better pipe organ than the one they have at present and, having made reasonable attempts to dispose of the old instrument as a going concern, are faced with getting the best scrap deal for it.
If the diocesan adviser approves and the organ builders don't recommend retention or resurrection, I think the church is doing the right thing. St. Nicholas-at-Wade, if I remember correctly (must check it out when I visit my sister in Faversham next month!), is quite a big church and would benefit from a more resourceful instrument than it appears to have at present. Organ builders will not generally recommend scrapping an organ if they think it is retrievable, and if they wanted the pipes they would presumably have registered an interest.
There are, we all know, many other instruments around which are more deserving of rescue.
Quote from: David Pinnegar on July 17, 2012, 10:54:34 PM
- "Don't waste. Respect the work of and gifts of one's forbears - make available what you don't need to others".
Best wishes
David P
that could apply to other situations as well. I wish more people thought like that !
regards Peter B
Quote from: David Drinkell on July 18, 2012, 02:40:06 PM
If the diocesan adviser approves and the organ builders don't recommend retention or resurrection
I saw what turned out to be an almost unaltered 1843 Walker hit the skip, following all the various formalities. What was thought to be a 20th Century Vowles, turned out to be a Walker, donated to the church from another around 1900. Electrocution and one or two (reversable) additions some years ago had hidden this fact, which came to light from an inscription hidden inside the organ, presumably dating back to the 1900 transplant.
But at least the organist now has a magnificent :o toaster, complete with Tuba...
http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/Church-pipes-sells-pieces-history/story-16848115-detail/story.html (http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/Church-pipes-sells-pieces-history/story-16848115-detail/story.html)
QuoteChurch pipes up as it sells pieces of history
Friday, September 07, 2012
Isle of Thanet Gazette
THEY would be an unusual addition to any home – 6ft long church organ pipes which are looking for new owners.
The wood-and-metal "bones" are being put up for sale by the church at St Nicholas-at-Wade.
HISTORY: Peter Paul with daughter Hermione and the chuuch's largest organ pipe, which has graffiti on it written by Peter's father Jim
As part of the current programme of improvements to St Nicholas-at-Wade church, the old pipe organ has been dismantled.
Current plans are for a replacement to be installed before the church reopens in October.
To help fund the new organ, the church are looking to sell the "bones" of the old one: principally the pipes.
There were nearly 500 pipes in the organ, both wooden and metal, and all of them still make a fine sound – although the largest ones require a lot of puff. Sizes range from under six inches to over six feet.
The dismantling of the organ has unearthed some fascinating insights into village life.
Peter Paul, whose father Jim used to be in the choir when a young schoolboy, discovered some graffiti with his dad's name on the largest pipe of all.
Mr Paul is keen to keep this piece of village and family history but has yet to convince his wife Annette that it will actually fit in their home. Daughter Hermione has chosen one of the smallest pipes as a keepsake.
Other people who have expressed an interest in acquiring many of the pipes include couples who were married in the church, bellringers, choristers, local clergy, the village pubs, and amateur organ builders from as far away as New Zealand.
There is also lots of high-quality wood from the organ's structure, and several local furniture makers and woodturners are keen to give it new life.
To find out the options, please contact Ben Jones on 01843 847701 or organ@ozaru.plus.com
Eric
KB7DQH