Organ matters - Organs matter!

Quote from: Victor Potter on September 01, 2012, 01:16:12 PMThe knee swells seem to have been removed

No, they are there and working fine  :)

http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=G00801   Does anyone know of the fate of this organ?

Apparently the church was due to close a few years ago, the congregation merging with the congregation across the road. I understand that the organ is still in situ, and a series of photographs can be found at http://www.flickr.com/photos/28652222@N03/2674644553/in/photostream/

Looks like the church didn't close after all. Do you know what are the current plans?

The above chapel is due to close, so the pneumatic organ is in danger.

Its not on the NPOR, but there are a couple of pictures on http://www.go-organbuilders.org.uk/project/?Colne-Independant-Methodist-26

The stop tabs look like Blackett and Howden, although I understand it is Conacher. Maybe rebuilt at some stage by B+H?

Many tahnks Victor - you were almost right.

I am indebted to Rob Allan who provided the answer, from Ian Thomson:-

"Looks like a German 5-row (Ph. Trayser?) with Old English stopfaces to
please the British market. ROS Database no 4351 is a 2-manual Trayser sold
in Britain by J. J. Hopkinson as the DIAPASON ORGAN. The second expression
stop may be Trayser's version of the Double Expression---not to be compared
with that found on French Art Harmoniums. Just an idea... "

http://www.reedsoc.org/Database/scrollfulldetails.asp?regno=4351&ExtraPict=0&Choice=2&Numberofstops=&fs=TRAYSER

From the above link, we learn that Trayser learned his trade with Alexandre, hence, I guess, the similarities.

I was able to visit the church the other day and I've uploaded more pictures to www.thatminidotcom.picturepush.com

Happy to report that the organ is in excellent working condition. The
bellows have been releathered 'recently' but unfortunately a decision was
then taken to also add an electric blower. This was done rather shoddily.

A large, square, white light switch was unsympathetically screwed next to
the treble end of the keyboard, and an inch of the stop jamb face was
removed for the electric cables... It could so easily have been placed out
of site, preserving the original appearance.

The stop with the missing face says '6 Dolce' , and curiously, the Principal
Treble says 8ft, whereas there is no 'Ft' on any of the other stops.

I've never played a two manual harmonium before, although many years ago I
used to play a gorgeous Alexandre (4 ranks from memory), dating back to
around 1860. The coupling worked perfectly and the action was light and
easy. I don't know what mechanism coupled the two manuals, but it was light
as a feather.

The Bourdon was a little milder than I remember the one on the Alexandre
being, but it gave a very pleasing growl, nonetheless.

The electric blower feeds directly in to the reservoir, and since I was able
to play by pumping, with the blower switched off, I should imagine that the
blower could be removed and the organ returned to its original state.

I see it has a Contra Fagotto...

Yes, I was rather hoping for pedals, but all the same, it looks interesting.

The Expression stop changes the way wind is blown into the reeds, so it can be played with dramatic effect, from FF to PP and back again. I used to have a lovely old Alexandre harmonium, dating back to mid 19th C which also had a Percussion stop, which hit the reeds a bit like a piano to get prompter speech (I think).

Check out this clip on YouTube to get an idea of what I mean -  http://youtu.be/_8zDrpZjUxo . Whoever said that reed organs are boring??? or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FLcHNVzdyo&feature=share&list=UL7FLcHNVzdyo

The Haslemere one has 2 Expression stops, so maybe one for each manual? I really have no idea.

I don't know how the stops get shared out between the 2 manuals and since if most of the ranks have 2 stops (one each for bass and treble) it won't be as big as first appears.

I shall let you all know in due course.

I've been told that J + J Hopkinson, 'sole importers' of this instrument opened their shop on Regent Street in 1876, so the organ must date to after this year.

If anyone knows anyone who knows anything about Harmoniums (ok, I'm sure there is a plural, but its 40 years since I did Latin :o ) feel free to shed some light here.

Yes, I've never seen that before, but I'm no expert.

I'm going down to see it on Thursday and might see if I can find anything inside that might give a clue. Hopefully someone on here might be able to shed some light on the matter.

I've posted a few photos of this instrument www.thatminidotcom.picturepush.com in the album Haslemere Hope Baptist.

It appears to be a French Harmonium, imported/supplied by J + J Hopkinson.

Has anyone any information about this type of instrument?

I have pasted below from http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/your-property/planning-advice/what-can-i-do-with-my-listed-building/

"What does listing cover?

Listed status covers a whole building, both inside and out. "

Also http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/your-property/planning-advice/what-can-i-do-with-my-place-of-worship/

"Our role is to promote and enable sustainable changes. Our main concerns are to make sure that the special interest of the building is preserved and that nothing of value is irretrievably lost as a result of new works. "

Also http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/content/publications/publicationsNew/guidelines-standards/new-work-in-historic-places-of-worship/places-of-worship-2012.pdf

"Organs
Organs can be among the most significant features of
a church or chapel interior, not least because of their
size. Sometimes designed to be an integral part of the
fitting-out of the building, many display considerable
quality in design and craftsmanship. In such cases we
would encourage their retention in situ. English Heritage
is not able to offer advice on questions relating to the
musical value of pipe organs or their relative merits
when compared with electronic alternatives, but
many denominational bodies do have specialist organ
consultants."

Furnishings.

The age, rarity and quality of the internal
furnishings and fittings should be assessed, particularly
in terms of their historical and aesthetic values, and the
extent of completeness of the overall arrangement.
Any past history of re-ordering or alteration should
be taken into account. Fittings of the 19th and
20th century, although relatively recent in date, may
nevertheless comprise the most important features
of an interior. Modest examples of local craftsmanship
should equally be given recognition.

Accordingly, I do not see that the situation in England is any different to that in Wales. A 'listed building' is listed, irrespective of what the listing specifies as making that building worthy of listing.

Since English Heritage recommends 'retention in situ' in the above circumstances, and when considered in the light of the last quote regarding 'the most important features of an interior', I cannot see how anyone, whether acting under ecclesiastical exemption or otherwise, can justify the removal of this organ.

Much as I would love to have the entire Choir division, console, Sw Mixture and Trumpet for my 1910 N+B rebuild...

I'm just curious - is the organ afforded any protection under the listed building status?

In Wales, CADW, the government department that looks after historic buildings, will not permit so much as a pipe to be removed from an organ in a building that is listed.

That gives the rather incongruous situation that whilst a listed building is the property of a denomination, the organ can be ripped out, but the moment the building is sold, it cannot.

I just wondered what is the stance of English Heritage (or whatever is the equivalent of CADW in England is) regarding this as http://www.dartford.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/63595/StoneHouseDevelopmentFrameworkMar08.pdf  seems to indicate that the preferred option for the Chapel is that it remains 'as is' in so far as not being split up:-

6.3.2 The Conservation Strategy identifies the following principles for the conversion of
the listed buildings:
• Proposals for the alteration of the listed buildings should accord with national
Government guidance (PPG15) and policies on the historic environment in the
Dartford Local Plan;
• New uses should minimise the adverse impact on the special historic and
architectural interest of the site;
• If possible, some element of community use should be introduced in a part of
the historic buildings;
• Either vertical or horizontal subdivision of the main building is acceptable;
• The subdivision of grander spaces such as the Great Hall, the theatre above
and the Chapel should be resisted. If subdivision is necessary this needs to be
rigorously justified and treated sensitively;
• Pedestrian links could be made through the main building by creating
archways or tunnels through the building at ground floor level
• Original fixtures and fittings should be retained and restored where possible;
and
• Proposals for the conversion or alteration of the Chapel should be submitted to
the Diocese of Rochester for approval.
6.3.3 The main hospital building, including the male infirmary, original pavilion blocks

If that is the case, the organ could be retained in the hope that, one day, an enlightened generation might arise and restore it, and in accordance with the above, maybe the 'Diocese of Rochester' could ask for the organ to be retained in situ, and obtain a sum of money out of the developers' profits to refurbish it   8)

I've spoken to Barbara and am hopeful that we have a good resolution here :-)

The magnificent 2 manual organ at the former Hope Calvinistic Methodist Chapel (Welsh Presbyterian) in Merthyr Tydfil, http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/churches/merthyr-tydfil3.htm is shortly to be dismantled and moved to Germany.

Not listed on the NPOR, pictures of the organ are available at www.thatminidotcom.picturepush.com , under the file 'Merthyr'.

Those who are familiar with chapel organs will appreciate that its specification is more comprehensive than often is found, and it is voiced to support the robust singing of a large Welsh congregation.

Although it is pneumatic action, often the death knell of a redundant organ of this sort, the quality of this beautiful instrument attracted the attention of someone with the means and ability to rescue it, just weeks before it was due to be removed for parts/scrap, the new owners of the building having need of the space it occupies  :-X

Quote from: David Drinkell on July 18, 2012, 02:40:06 PM
 

If the diocesan adviser approves and the organ builders don't recommend retention or resurrection

I saw what turned out to be an almost unaltered 1843 Walker hit the skip, following all the various formalities. What was thought to be a 20th Century Vowles, turned out to be a Walker, donated to the church from another around 1900. Electrocution and one or two (reversable) additions some years ago had hidden this fact, which came to light from an inscription hidden inside the organ, presumably dating back to the 1900 transplant.

But at least the organist now has a magnificent  :o  toaster, complete with Tuba...

Any update on this?

I would hate to see this one scrapped, but am looking for some authentic N+B accessories for our rescued one.

Thanks for the videos - maybe there will be more interest aroused.

It certainly looks like a nice tracker instrument, and has been the subject of various posts under several threads now.

But  £10,000?  ::)

So it sold for £1,550 then. Wonder who bought it  ???
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230817600452

Well, I did what I could to alert everyone :'(

Presumably this one is the one referred to in other threads, so is tracker action.

Nice and simple to dismantle and rebuild, although a hugely complex and time consuming operation.

Presumably the £10,000 price tag is all that has prevented it from finding a new home.

£500 would be the top whack, and that's being generous ;-)

Any news on this one? I've tried emailing but had no reply