Organ matters - Organs matter!

Greetings Folks hope all is well?

I've long moved away from my last Church the one with the Johannus, and now very happily play at another parish with another one combined.  It's the best move I've ever made to be honest!

In my other two Churches, we have two Eminent Organs which are very decent and been there for about 15 years or so and sound good,

But one of the organs always have ongoing issues i.e Mice Eating the Pedal Buffers and so forth, the latest saga at the moment with this organ is a broken reed switch on the pedals and "sound issues" meaning when pressing the notes, they can be very distant when coming through or don't sound at all, I got in touch with the guy who deals with the organ and he says it's a cross between the "generation system" to amplifiers"

The real problem is the guy who maintains our Organs at the Church no issues but he comes all the way from Heartfordshire, and he never comes on time, i.e 2pm and he will arrive at 4pm but does seem to charge quite a bit, but in fairness he does get the job done.  The last time he came a few months back got delayed by 5 hours hence the traffic!

As you will now I'm based in Swansea,South Wales, and what I'm wondering do any of you know who repairs and services Eminents abit more nearer home?

Would be grateful for your input.

Cheers
Rob

Hi everyone I hope your all well?

I have in the last few months moved onto another Church with two very decent Organs which are Eminents very impressed with the sound.

The Other Eminent in recent weeks wasn't working and to cut a long story short an Organ Techie came to the Church last Thursday to get it going again and all was well, the next day I went along to get used of the Organ and I then I find "Middle C" on the Pedal Board was  starting to consistently stick and the only way to unstick it was to "Jiggle it abit" Still the problem remains.

Today after a Funeral service one of the wardens and myself had a good look at the pedal board to try and source the problem, and one of the "felts" had come off resulting in a "Clacking Sound" when the pedal is pressed, we may have further look at this next week.

I suggested to the Church Officials that we should get the Eminent Guy to come back to take a look at this, he has to come from Heartfordshire which is a long way to travel which looks to prove costly.

Anyway I''m wondering do you know of someone that repairs Eminent Instruments and is near to the South Wales area?

Many Thanks

Rob

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Old-welsh-Chapel-Pipe-Organ-1909-/290746603184?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item43b1d916b0

It appears someone had started a thread in this forum "Edward Dean"

Anyway the Chapel is located in Ystalyfera called Gurnos Independent Chapel in the Swansea Valley

I went to play this organ on Friday and made some videos of it you will find them on my youtube channel "RobCharles1981" I have to say it's a very nice sounding organ and deserves to have a new home, I would like to see this Organ going to a Chapel in the Swansea area.

I too personally think the "Buy it now price" is some what of a Joke at £10,000 as far as I'm aware they have not had informal interest.

Best Regards
Rob

Quote from: diapason on April 04, 2012, 04:43:34 PM
A toaster shouldn't be affected by the cold weather unless, perhaps, the building is damp and this is causing problems with contacts.  If this is the case, then a simple low wattage tubular heater (dampchaser) might help.  I've heard good reports about Ormatronix and they might be able to help.  It's certainly worth asking the PCC to agree to you contacting them for advice.  Otherwise, you might want to try what my first organ teacher did:  He was Organist of a local RAF camp where the organ (this was in the early 1970's) was an awful Livingston Burge.  Reg told me he used to pray for the Lord to send a thunderbolt from Heaven to strike the toaster so that the Air Ministry would provide a better one  ;)  (It never worked for Reg, but a lightning strike on another local church did destroy the Makin one-manual and the insurance payout bought a far better 2-manual & pedal  :)
Good luck!
N

Nigel good to hear from you! :-)

Well as of late the building is not that cold from what I see, but it's been like this as I say for a number of weeks so it does sound that a component has gone kapput but which one I don't know!  Ormatronix is the way forward I'm going to speak with the Church on Sunday I think and get this going.

In a view to come soon in the 17 Years I have been in the parish playing the Organ I'm getting a "Contract" which I've been told is "Good" in it I will be handed over the car of both Organs to myself so this is somthing to look forward too! :-)

Hi  All

Haven't posted in a while.

Since the Cold Weather Spell in January the instrument has gone "out of tune" it's virtually non playing now and some of the members of my church where asking what was wrong with the Organ and I told them it's the cold weather and the Church Warden Laughed it off.

Each other Sunday when a service was held the same problem commenced it was driving me nuts.

Anyway cutting a long story short I had to "take" a Sunday off due to matters with the Church and a member of Church who is an Organist played in my absense and he too experienced the same problem in what I'm talking about.

He recommended an Organ Repairer who was reliable and "Good Value for Money" as it happened he was going to the Church to sort out the problem, anyway I went to the Church and I knew the guy who looked after my "house organ" but the annoyance was he didn't know much of these organs and hes fiddled about inside and he sort of new the part needed but this something to do with the Pitch Control Unit?   I don't trust at all, I know for a fact he hasn't been trained in these organs.

I spoke to my Vicar about Ormatronix Organs and this is a must to put right.

What do you think?

Thanks
Rob

Hi Av and welcome

The Opus 1105 I believe was built in the early 1990's as David said to me a couple of posts in this thread I showed him a diagram of the curcuit boards that Johannus sent to me a while ago its apprantly the same laylout at his Organ at Hammerword park.

Here are some videos of this Organ on my youtube channel:

http://youtu.be/9bdlq45HtWE

http://youtu.be/Srz9qP6rh-c

In my opinion you can see the Sound Lacks.

I also believe the company we brought the Organ from back in the Days where ok but since it's gone "more upmarket" we have been had or in my own thoughts been had by sales persons.
My aim at the moment is to move to another person who is cheaper and understands things better from an Organist point of view.

At the moment I'm going into the back of the Organ as I'm not sure what I am doing.

But thanks for the info, it's interesting.

Cheers.

Don't worry folks I've not letting this thread go to the ghosts - our Church are having a new Incumbnet in a couple of weeks, and I will tell him all that's gone on, and I will be getting rid of Makin Organs for good as far as I'm concerned.

Hi All.

Sorry its been a while since I posted.

My Parish are having a new vicar in the next few months and I'm going to push for Ormatronix Organs to come and help me out.

I found out from my Organ Friend a little history of my organ and its shocking:

1.   It was built in 1989 so the Technology was old "Analogue"
2.   It was originally a home practice organ before it went into a Church
3.   It was then installed in a parish church in Essex – St James it was removed  due to the church had to shut down
4.   It found a home for a period of time before it got sold back to Makin Organs and was in their "store area"
5.   It got hired out as a replacement organ for the time being it then went back to Makin Organs.
6.   In 1994 it was installed in St Martins In the Field in London due to their organ being renovated
7.   At this time the A and B Amplifiers where added to the organ to the speakers being put around the building.
8.   After a period of time it went back to Makin Organs9.   
9.      In 2001 My Church brought the Organ second hand and it had the 4 External Speakers with it with it the PCC at the time thought it was pointless due to a "small church"
10.   The PCC claimed the console speakers where the "best sound" and not in your face.
11.   Makin Organs kept the speakers and installed them in another Church at St Mary's in Chadwell.
12.   The Current console speakers have come from CONN Organs – they are of poor sound quality.
13.   Until the year 2000 Makin Organs changed their contractor to "Kawiei Speakers" for better sound properties.

Confused.com

Quote from: David Pinnegar on January 21, 2011, 07:11:41 AM

Quote from: RobCharles1981 on January 20, 2011, 10:09:27 PM

What sort of speakers would suit this organ do you think? 

With reference to the Mixture stop its not out of tune, its' basically a case that it's under volume compared to it on the swell I can easily tell when I listen carefully.
As far as I can see there is no room for a voice box it simply doesn't have the connector for it, I did look underneath the manuals and rear but nothing was there.

Dear Rob

Speakers - well I see the stops and I see the amps but unless I'm blind don't see which stops are allocated to each channel. If you can possibly write out the stop list and then play each stop and determine which groups of stops are coming out of each of the existing speakers, I'll be able to give you some useful ideas.

Mixture stop not out of tune - that's a relief! This might be adjustable via the treble control on the relevant amp but that will affect all other stops through that channel too so this might need the indinote box.

The connectors for the voicing box may well be tucked away on a circuit board inside that might not be found easily. Roy Orme may know but David Fetterman definitely will. Both Jonathan Lane and "Hector17" (Paul) both on this forum and who are now both pipe organ men but know also about Makins of this vintage too and might have direct knowledge. You might usefully PM them. (It would be great actually if they might be persuaded to be more noisy in posting stimulating pipe posts!)

Best wishes

David P

Hi David I messaged the users.

As for your reference here's the stop specification of the Johannus Opus 1105:

Accessories                     Great


Swell to Great                          Bourdon              16'
Great to Pedal                          Open Diapason      8'
Swell to Pedal                          Rohrflute         8'
Tremulant Great                  Dulciana         8'
Tremulant Swell                  Octave                 8'
                                Open Flute        4'
Pedal                                                       Twelfth                2⅔'
                                                                   Super-Octave     2'
Open Diapason       16'             Cornet                IV
Subass                   16'             Mixture             V-VII
Octave                      8'             Clarinet       8'
Gedact                      8'             Trumpet      8'
Choral Bass           4'
Wald Flute               4'            Swell
Open Flute                 2'            
Mixture                       3 Ranks          Open Diapason   8'
Contra Fagotto            32'            Stopped Flute   8'
Trombone                   16'            Viola         8'
Trumpet                        8'            Voix Celeste      8'
Schalmel                      4'            Principal      4'
                               Coppel-Flute      4'
                                Nazard              2 2⅔'
                                Block Flute      2'
                               Tierce         1 3/5'
                                Larigot              1 ⅓'
                                Mixture               III-V
                                Contra Fagotto     16'
                                Oboe          8'
                                Trumpet        8'

Quote from: David Pinnegar on January 20, 2011, 05:43:42 AM
Dear Rob

Thanks for the link.

This is a digital organ of the early 1990s based on the M114 sound cards. These are 8 bit and by today's standards primitive _but_ the sounds can be remarkably good if processed in the right way.

This means 

• adjusting amplifiers well,
• using specifically designed loudspeakers (not generic nor PA speakers) - which can make the most remarkable difference to realism achievable - and
• an octave coupler can be derived which can totally transform the effectiveness of the instrument, in particular regenerating the lost upper frequency harmonics that cause a chord in the right hand in the top two octaves to be lost, overpowered by a chord in the left hand. These can be applied selectively to certain groups of stops.

I don't know the sound samples of this instrument but from the stop list on page 6 of the service manual, and being aware of two instruments of this character belonging to players on YouTube, one in Italy and one in South America, well voiced, the instrument should be capable of sounding superb.

With regard to tuning of the Mixture, this is odd in that it cannot be out of tune with other stops on the Great, all of which are given pitch common to all stops by the generator board page 11, in particular chip U8, the LM567 main oscillator. This goes through the 4059 frequency dividers and then 4046 Phased Locked Loop chips which generate three seperate frequencies governed by the tremulants and in particular settings for pitch and chorus intensity given by the DIPswitches 1-3 and 5-8 on S1.

I'd imagine that these might do something to your Mixture, possibly affected by how many stops are drawn, although I don't see a feedback mechanism for this, and it might simply be for the Celeste 8ft. Page 16 identifies switches 1-3 as Tuning Swell and 4-8 as Chorus Swell - this may be the Celeste. However, the block diagram Page 1 shows a SELCO . . . 73 bus which may relate to increasing "chorus" as numbers of stops are drawn.

How therefore the Great Mixture can be out of tune is a mystery. This should be a question both for Roy Orme and for David Fetterman at Makins: you need someone who was dealing with these circuits 20 years ago.

Which stops will be adjustable in volume will depend on groupings fed to the amplifiers but these are potentially choosable and alterable with links indicated on the voice cards, P12 to PA1-6 on the main bus. The potentiometers on these cards adjust a voltage bias, nothing to do with voicing, and can be responsible not only for distortion but also a thump, a bit like tracker noise, on each note.

Page 16 indicates the general volume controls for each of the amplifiers on the amplifier cards, and the associated treble and bass controls for each channel. The extent to which these are useful controls depends on stop groupings.

On this vintage instrument, there should be a connector or two for an "INDINOTE" voicing box. With the box one can adjust the volume both of individual notes, as well as individual ranks as well as the extent of chiff or otherwise.

The amplifier boards use a TDA 7250 amplifier circuit controlling TIP142 and TIP147 complementary transistor pairs arranged in the spec sheet guideline:
http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/pdf/TDA7250.pdf


This circuit should be a foolproof short circuit protected circuit, but even despite the fuses, F4 and F3, the short circuit protection fails and it is essential to take care not to short speaker wires by accident at any time that the organ is turned on.

Certainly the Pedal department will be coming through its own amplifier and this should therefore be adjustable directly on the amplifier volume control - an easy adjustment. From Page 2 this looks as though it's the upper amplifier of Amp card A, the left hand of the pair. However, this will also adjust the 16fts on the manuals too . . . and if these are fine at the moment, one will need to use the Indinote voicing box.

Best wishes

David P

Thanks David for this information its helpful.

What sort of speakers would suit this organ do you think? 

With reference to the Mixture stop its not out of tune, its' basically a case that it's under volume compared to it on the swell I can easily tell when I listen carefully.

Moving On.

Do you rough idea how long Royston Orme worked for Makin by any chance???

As far as I can see there is no room for a voice box it simply doesn't have the connector for it, I did look underneath the manuals and rear but nothing was there.

Thanks

Rob

Quote from: David Pinnegar on January 19, 2011, 04:22:18 AM
Dear Rob

I suspect that Roy at Ormatronix might have a greater in depth electronic knowledge but really one does not need to be too "precious" about electronic maintenance. Electronic organs can be considered generally in functional blocks of which amplifiers and speakers are independant of tone generation and if any disaster should happen to them, they are universally replaceable in a modular way.

If voicing means changing resistors it means that the original instrument is likely to be analogue with tone forming circuits and one simply does not want to muck around with that. However, there may be variable resistors somewhere which can adjust the relative volumes of each stop and there may be associated tone controls. It's not rocket science.

You're quite right to comment that a guarantee that ran out in 2002 is now worthless.

Does the instrument have a MIDI output? This might be useful possibly for Hauptwerk extensions. If it does it suggests a digital basis of sound generation and this can need more specialised knowledge in some circumstances.

Provided your instrument is producing sound, that signal can be taken off to other amplifiers or speakers and used in different ways till your heart's content and most probably by anyone with quite a basic knowledge. I know from past correspondence that you need external speakers rather than the inbuilt typical console speakers - that's not difficult and the speakers need not be expensive.

Other than that, what specifically is the area of maintenance that's troubling you?

If you'd like to sport the cost of the circuit diagram from
http://www.wdgreenhill.com/manu/johannus.htm
I can advise further. The 1105 is not listed - it will be a modified 1100 or something like a 1110 but either Johannus or Greenhill may be able to guide you on which is closest.

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

Thanks for the input,

I really like the sound of Roys experience and I will find out more about him when he replies.

I had a little explore of the organ sometime ago, all the resistors are on the voice cards with three points I assume for each division, I'm afraid I've not done electronics in School or nothing like that so I can't go no further in that department, the only way to change the overall volume of the organ is by the additional amplifier controls as there are two of them.  One deals with the Internal and the other the External.

Johannus sent me the service manual to look at of interest.

Yes the organ does have Midi connectors too.  And Roy would be the best one for the external speakers too if he would to advise on the way forward.

At the moment the only problems I have, I done a sound test of the stops and the Great Mixture seems just a little underpowered and not in tune with the others, then on the pedal department the Subbass stop which the "engineer" lowered to a silly level and whats resulted of the organ lost its bass and with that in theory the last 3 notes on the bottom pedal bored are resonating the console, its either coming from the Bass speaker or somewhere else.

Thanks

Rob

P.S added the user manual for the Johannus 1105:

http://www.mediafire.com/?2at2kibrq4zi9ct

Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on January 18, 2011, 05:43:55 AM
Sounds like a complex job likely not worth doing. You might as well just get a new/nearly new toaster. Better still, have you considered a nice secondhand pipe organ? Beat the pants off the toaster for musicality and longevity. Toasters are a false economy in the vast majority of cases.

The Church wouldn't want to to that.

What I'm sensing here, the last correspondence I had from the Church regarding that issue.

I think the issue here is a lack of communication with Makin Organs, when I asked the [name removed] on [name removed] he said that [name removed] Did do some work for them a while ago, then he came back that he wasn't "Officially" trained in Makin or Johannus Organs I was abit skeptical, I seem to remember a time when I spoke with [name removed] a while ago he mentioned Roy Orme that has been Officially Trained so why didn't he say it at this point?

From a recent feedback I had from the Church Council if "we" went to [name removed] Organs for adption of the organ and servicing it would invalidate our existing "warranty" with Makin I've tried at least 5 times to tell the church that there is no warranty on the organ that expired in 2002.

For the sake of Argument if we where to go with [name removed] and he "mucks" up the organ ie putting the wrong speakers or mucking up the electronics to the organ it could result in him "blowing up" the organ or so to speak.

[name removed] Suggests at that time only "approved" people or contractors would be benificial for Argument Sake Roy (OrmatronixOrgans) would be better.

I hope this Makes sense.

Rob

Quote from: David Pinnegar on January 17, 2011, 08:46:25 AM

Quote from: RobCharles1981 on January 14, 2011, 02:09:32 AMThe Johannus 1105 is old Technology so its not easy to voice this organ.

Dear Rob

Is it digital? Is it early 1990s? If so there may be a small rectangular connector block, possibly 16 pin which might be brought out to the front of the instrument or may be buried in the back and this is the connector for a digital voicing box - and I have one.

If you buy a service manual from WD Greenhill and send it to me I'll happily look it over and see what options the circuits might offer.

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

Unfortunately there's no connection what your describing Makin Confirmed this sometime ago, so it requires physcial changes changing resistors.

Cheers

Rob

Quote from: Barrie Davis on January 14, 2011, 01:23:40 AM
Dear Rob,

I sympathise with your problems, it is always very hard to seemingly make the right decision and have it shot down in flames by the PCC. I am afraid your local organ advisor will have little or no input into who looks after the instrument, they are only interested in replacements or alterations as those require a faculty.

Makins have some really good engineers who understand Johannus inside out, after all it is the parent company of Makin.

I know Johannus and Makin differ very much over regulation, Makins were regulated on site rank by rank but not Johannus. Apart from the voicing everything else is the same.

Barrie

Hi Barrie

Our Organ Advisor is an Organist he is the vicar of Hay on Wye, and he offered a few "practical tips"   

As I said to David about Ormatronix I looking at this guy because he is experienced in organ repair and knows his stuff.  The Johannus 1105 is old Technology so its not easy to voice this organ.

Thanks

Rob

Hi David:

Thanks very much for the input but I'm not sure why the MD of Makin recons he wasn't trained in Makin or Johannus Organs but he sure does carry allot of knowledge in them and with others.  I think there was a break down in communication somewhere because someone else recommended me Anthony Bogdan too and I tried sticking to my guns or so to speak but he pointed if I went to Anthony and asked for the maintenance and possible speaker installation he then reckons that he's not officially trained but did do work for makin in the past.

The only reason why I was recommended Ormatronix was that he was cheaper than Makin and a Church Musician the Makins own one is not.

Cheers

Rob

Hi David and thank you.

The Problems really is down to the lack of maintenance with it, I would rather have someone who is an Organist themselves and who has had many years of experience of repairing organs I was firstly recommended Anthony about this then recently someone recommended Ormatronix.

I want to go with somebody who is cheaper on maintenance and has commonsense.

What did Anthony Bogdan do for you and as well as Ormatonix?

Thanks

Rob

Well Its about time I posted here so hi all!  :)

In One of my main Church's I play I have a Johannus Opus 1105 Organ which was purchased From Makin Organs back in 2001, the organ was built around 1980-1990's and it was brought second hand From what I understand the warranty for the organ has expired way back in 2002.  And since this time Makin Organs have "maintained" it but since last year they came and more or less "mucked it up"

[] I wanted someone else to maintain the organ I was recommended Anthony Bogdan Organ's about maintaining it,  [but] at that point the recent organ maintenance was booked by the Church without my knowing and I felt rather cross nothing was done about this at all.

When I spoke to KH he said the PCC Secretary and Warden didn't want me there and I was livid in the way I was treated and I told him I was going to have a chat with the local Diocesan Organ Advisor and he gave me some good advice about it and tried to speak to my vicar about this which backfired, []  all hell broke loose one Sunday Morning.   You can understand how I felt.

The Church insit Makin Organs for the future and i'm blocked out on communication with them and I'm not having this at all from what I gather the church spent at least £250 for a full service on the organ what a con!!

Another Organ Friend of mine I told him about this and was livid too he recommend me Ormatronix Organs have any forum members have dealings with the guy who runs this and if so what is he like?

Hope you can help.

Cheers

Rob