Organ matters - Organs matter!

Hi!

Here are some samples from a disc comparing the organs of
St Maximin
St Remy de Provence
Albi and
Lucon

The recording is exceptionally good and the CDs are very much worthwhile buying - "Les Organistes Postclassiques Parisiens 1740-1860" Beavarlet-Charpentier Lasceux G-F Couperin and Benoist played by Nicolas Gorenstein.

Below are extracts demonstrating

The Grand Jeu http://www.organmatters.co.uk/grand-jeu.wma
Hautbois and Flute http://www.organmatters.co.uk/hautboisflute.wma
Cromorne sur les fonds http://www.organmatters.co.uk/cromorne2.wma
Cromorne http://www.organmatters.co.uk/cromorne.wma
and
the Voix Humaine http://www.organmatters.co.uk/voixhumaine.wma

I'm wondering if anyone with the St Maximin sampleset on Hauptwerk might be able to demonstrate how near the Hauptwerk version of this instrument is to the real thing as recorded so well here?

It is of course absurd not to be able to discuss such matters on the Hauptwerk forum.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Electrostatic chimes? Can anyone tell us more about those?

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

The other evening I was listening to a disc of the organ at St Maximin. Philippe Bardon always says how special the acoustic is there, and says that reverberation is ruined by a cruxiform format to a building and or a dome.

At the end of a large chord, it's apparent that one hears the wall of sound hitting one end of the building and then the other, bouncing back between the ends, but when I heard it the other evening it almost sounded as though the pitch changed minutely as the sound passed in each direction.

http://www.organmatters.co.uk/reverb.wma

Is that perception an illusion or a reality?

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.stg is interesting

2011 includes Holland, Sweden (The Organ Culture of Great Britain), and Spain - romantic organ music led by Daniel Roth . . .

Worth keeping an eye on! Such courses can really open one's eyes to new music and wider traditions.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

In http://www.organmatters.co.uk/index.php?topic=189.0 and also the thread about religious fundamentalism, hopefully the man-imposed arguments between Catholicism, Protestantism and Islam are seen to be about the man-erected edifications of respective bureaucracies rather than in any way relating to the worship of God.

It was the preception of these absurdities that caused people like Sir Isaac Newton and Sir Christopher Wren to be Freemasons, St Paul's Lodge being the first lodge to be founded in London. Count Zinzendorf is a character to research. Freemasonry was the only available route to freedom of thought at the time, and by reason of its secret nature, offered protection and immunity from the scourges of cries of heresy and resulting punishments abounding at the time. It is said that History is a Foreign Country, and entering 17th century England is a very strange place.

Even incontinence was seen as a sign of a crime against God and so resulted in Excommunication.

Excommunication is a process that runs through all primitive societies and especially where an individual points out uncomfortable truths that go against the commonly held fashions of beliefs upon fragile foundations.

The more fragile the foundation, the more rigidly the excommunicative systems are enforced.

To send someone to Coventry has found itself in the 20th century vocabulary and teenagers practice exclusion on the basis of "They're not one of us", and it's an oppressive process intended to bully people to come into line.

It was seen to be rather a stupid punishment when both Galileo's and Copernicus' observations about the Earth and astronomy were found to be and seen to be correct, contrary to the fashionable doctrines of the day.

A late 20th century sect practices a process of "disconnection" when friends or family members are seen to have negative characteristics in terms of sympathy towards the sect. The Nicean Gospels carry the same flavour in splitting families in exhortation of the superior duties towards God.

The tome by Christopher Hill "Society and Puritanism in Pre-Revolutionary England" sets the scene in the Chapter "The Rusty Sword of the Church":
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vSRHjfvg3OQC&lpg=PP1&ots=9vaKnULiyQ&dq=Society%20and%20Puritanism%20in%20Pre-Revolutionary%20England&pg=PA304#v=onepage&q&f=false
and it makes fascinating reading.

Thank goodness we live in the 21st century in which freedoms of speech and incontinence are permitted.

Best wishes

David P


(Hey -  ;) Mackie HR824MKII speakers are the best thing since sliced bread for the full scale presentation of computer software generated organ music)

Hi!

Places are being booked for this concert, so it's a good idea to ring early to reserve a seat. Jeremy is worth moving the earth to come and hear and . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe_eJ60PmtM is no ordinary instrument . . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

I have offered on any such future occasions to bring along some speakers which would enable Hauptwerk to sound as real as it can be. They would also show up any shortcomings, and then a comparison with a real organ would be very valid.

Having heard Carlo Curley play a Makin through Makin speakers in competition with a one manual pipe organ, frankly I preferred the pipe organ. It would be interesting to put the Makin and Hauptwerk through good speakers and then compare with the pipe organ.

However, in the cause of supremacy of pipe organs, I'm all for electronics to be let down by the speakers!

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130442432712

A nice two manual pipe organ, probably another at the mercy of yet another residential conversion. Just why can't people build keeping their organ into their schemes?

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: barniclecompton on October 13, 2010, 06:35:59 AMDixon was auditioned, and got the job, being told, if that he didnt make a success of dancing, he, and the Wurlitzer would go!
To be continued......

Hi!

Looking forward to continuation of this thread . . . but thought it worth mentioning that Forum Admin was quizzically questioned in putting Cinema organs into the same category as Fair Organs.

To be perfectly fair, part of my teenage admiration for the organ was the mechanical wizardry of the Gavioli, as a Unit Dance Band, just as Hope Jones envisaged the branch of organ building which led to Theatre Organs as Unit Orchestras.

It would be great if anyone knows any Dutch Unit Dance Band enthusiasts to join this forum with input on some of the very great cafe organs that they have across the North Sea. . .

Certainly Blackpool is proving that the two genres, as dance organs, have much to share, even if not in players!

Indeed automatically playing organs have a fascination, which is why I understand numbers of Hauptwerk users enjoy other performer's expertise by way of sharing midi files. . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

I have noticed that computer organ simulation users are still enthusing over Mackie HR824MK and similar speakers as though there are no alternatives for Organ reproduction. For the avoidance of doubt, this post applies specifically to organ reproduction only and the circumstance of the desire to create an absolute reality of the sound of an organ pipe and collections of organ pipes. Those are very specialised criteria which do not take away from the generality ofthe overall excellence of reproduction that people enjoy in the course of using such speakers.

I was willing to stake my reputation on the fact that two way speakers, especially the modern incarnations with active crossovers are not best matched to pipe organ reproduction and do not give the computer organ simulation signal the best medium to shine through.

"Proof! Proof! Proof!" - the Hauptwerk forum asked and rotten tomatos were thrown at me.

Yesterday afternoon an organist turned up to practice, as they often do, and as he played I crawled around the instrument to check everything was operating as it should.

What I have been saying on the forums was absolutely confirmed: the Diapason and in fact a Posaune had been playing through a two way speaker. It had sounded plastic. (On the computer organ simulation forum I mentioned that this occured on some stops and not others, and bad eggs were hurled at me.) I replaced this two way speaker with a dual concentric two way speaker. It still sounded plastic. I rediscovered yesterday that I had resorted to putting that speaker onto a sub-woofer filter and used a different type of speaker for everything above tenor C . . . and those stops are now alive.

One only has to look at
or
to see that whatever the brand of speaker, Behringer, Genlec or whatever, speakers that have a disposition that looks like this simply cannot adequately and realistically reproduce the organ range and continuum of freqencies. Just visualise the pipework and the size of the pipes, of course directly relating to physical requirements of sound and imagine which pipes are coming out of which speaker and which parts of which pipes are coming out of each speaker.

Speakers like this are designed for instance to shine for singer and percussive bass, melody and accompaniment - or one might even argue listening to modern electronic music on radio 1, percussive accompaniment with low tones and percussion treble, and a melody that doesn't matter if it's only somewhere in the middle.

Over 99% of all music sales are non-classical, so any comments that one sees written about such speakers in relation to classical music will be in the tiniest minority.

Proof? http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.php?threadid=570199 .
See the comment of "The Inspector" -
- "they are just not critical enough" but particularly also the comments of "Feeding Cone"
- "sound like most of the speakers in the world"
- "I thought that the upper mid-range was a bit iffy"

Of course Diapasons need absolute clarity in the upper-midrange. They don't have a complex structure of dissonant harmonics and so their output might look like the graph of the 8767 054 Hammond registration on
http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/hammond_drawbar_science.html

The upper midrange is critical to the relationship of harmonics in the sound.  If the peak near 2kHz is disrupted by coming out of the two units at once, then the sound won't sound as real as other solutions offer.

Incidentally, that graph is demonstrative of the use of technology in replacing the use of thought . . . because by definition, the Hammond is incapable of producing those frequencies as shown by the graph. Rather than a bell-like peak, the graph should show a spike at 440Hz and its harmonics. Why? The Hammond is incapable of producing 439Hz and 441Hz nor any frequency in the one note between 440Hz and 880Hz. Having said that, the Fast Fourier Transform that produces such graphs examine a set of frequencies within a spectrum of time, that time being limited and thereby leading to the infill of frequencies  we see in the graph. But perhaps that may also relate to the way in which our ears perceive sound? Bearing in mind that our continuity of vision is fooled at the point of 12-15 frames per second, time limitations within our mental processing will give rise to perceptions in the frequency domain are not directly apparent.

Why bother to urge people to use speakers better designed for organs?

If we are to encourage enthusiasm in organs, whether pipe or electronic simulations, the result must be captivating. That will only occur with instruments that are nothing short of aurally top rate. Second best is not good enough. (By this I don't imply expense - expense and suitability do not always equate)

One would think that computer organ simulation users might desire the direction of organ excellence rather than in any way a brand worship.

If one is not allowed to put pointers along the way that suggest that other solutions give better excellence without being suspended from the forum, the forum and the product associated with it becomes only a must-have fashion accessory instead of serving a quest for perfection.

Best wishes

David P

POSTSCRIPT: http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench102/caps.html is interesting on distortions introduced into systems by capacitors

Hi!

Eric - sorry to interrupt your line of thought but on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXx_IWTc_9c
this evening there is the comment:

QuoteI'm by no means an organ expert, but that really sounded wonderful - I really like the low bass notes on the pedals such as at 0:26 - they really add character to the piece.

YouTube is a great tool . . .

It's for this reason that it's great when performers are happy for people to post extracts from inspirational concerts and frustrating when performers are "prissey" about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IUG2YM1aHE is a magical performance - and uploaded over 2800 times . . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

It sounds really great - brilliant! Very pleasant and beautifully articulate playing too . . .

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: Holditch on October 12, 2010, 02:17:45 PM
David is completely correct with his comment that showing more people the majesty and magnificence of the organ generates enthusiasm.

Fundamentally, in this current day and age, the showing of organs to the unconverted (I mean in a non religious manner) is getting increasingly more and more difficult because the masses choose not to go to the buildings containing these wonderful instruments, i.e. church. We can discuss until the cows come home about the demise of congregations, but fundamentally the organ needs to be made aware of outside of its normal home.

Dear Marc

Yes - spot on. The people who threw bad eggs and rotten tomatos at me on the Hauptwerk Forum do not understand this nor what I have been doing in bringing my "Beast" out of the cathedral and into a secular venue.

My next ambition is to construct a portable instrument - I have four manuals at the ready - to take into schools - but there is only a point in doing this if it's going to be used - so that means schools and school beaks who are receptive and interested - and organists better than I who see the point of such enthusiasm and are ENTHUSIASTIC to come and play it, whereever, and of course there's no money in it (unless we can find sponsorship) so very much for the pure desire of the spread of enthusiasm.

Why stop at schools? Town centres and shopping arcades? If buskers can busk then why can't organists be the Kings of busking?

It's for this reason that I hope that this forum might call together people with enthusiasm to join together in such projects.

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: barniclecompton on October 11, 2010, 09:15:03 AM
helps more if the enthausiams is shared......

Hi!

I'm sorry to say that enthusiasm is only generated when one shows people something so fantastic that they sit up and take notice. What you have been doing in recent posts is absolutely superb. If one _beleives_ that something is worthy of enthusiasm, then by enthusing enough, other expressions of enthusiasm will come to join you and assist in multiplications of your work as a product of your belief.

Following your path can be a lonely and painful process, but it's always worthwhile in the end.

My experience with discussion boards are that there are always lurkers, greatly interested in everything but who sometimes rarely come out of the shadows. It sometimes takes a lot to get them to be brave enough to start talking. All comments on discussion-boards have to be taken with a smile on one's face and no-one should ever take offense, as offense is very very rarely intended. Some people are just blunter than others . . . and one has to understand this. So PLEASE just carry on expressing your enthusiasm with your long background and knowledge of the King of Instruments - after all that's why the Wurlitzer was popularly referred to as mighty  . . . wasn't it?

Best wishes

David P

Hi Neil!

Isn't this the point at which we need Paul to come in? He's either busy or, I hope not taken offence on account of anything I've said . . . ?

Doing the double recording at both ends of the pipe, one would have to play them back as pairs, with speakers facing forwards and upwards . . . In effect, in one post I reported getting a good result for a diapason with a speaker in a near open baffle arrangement at 45 degrees and being directed to reflect off the ceiling. In a way, such an arrangement separates the 180 degree phased sounds to propagate seperately in their own ways.

Paul and I disagreed as to whether one should take apparent defects in speakers to be advantages in reproducing pipework of similar characteristics. Perhaps there is a difference of philosophy here in a difference of purpose: many Hauptwerk users are intending to reproduce as accurately as possible a specific organ of somewhere else and replicate it as a replication of that organ. In contrast in building a concert organ for performance, I have been concentrating on what I want my organ to do and to be able to do without imitating any other. This gives me the freedom to start with a trumpet and decide to spice it up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cL8QDLv8vM
and as an instrument to INSPIRE the new generation, I want it to be able to show to them that the King of Instruments is worthy of life beyond the nightclub. So, far from authenticity of any organ anywhere else, my requirement is an organ on steroids . . .

The result of this is that one can produce an instrument to wake people up - the forthcoming film London Boulevard starring Colin Farrell and Keira Knightley features one of the actors pulling out an aptly named organ stop . . . but I'm not going to spoil the story . . .

Jesting apart, all exciting organs have always aspired to being organs on steriods: often good registration requires one to pull other stops with the Clarinet on the choir - in particular, 8ft Flute or Bourdon, Nazard, Tierce and even Larigot and Septieme if you've got it . . . not just salt but monosodium glutamate to the sound. Isn't it boring organs that have dulled people's perception of the EXCITEMENT of the instrument?

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Actually I don't think that electronics will _ever_ be as sophisticated as pipework:
http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2009/09/surprising-physics-of-pipe-organs.html
This article looks at the way in which organ pipes lock in frequency and how sometimes they even cancel each other out.

It's a long time since I looked properly at resonance in pipes - perhaps someone can answer - is the sound pressure at the end of an open pipe in the same phase as that at the mouth? L= wavelength/2 It looks to me as though the two ends of the pipe are going to be out of phase sound sources. We know from stereo speakers out of phase that this produces an indeterminate image of where the sound is coming from.

Perhaps the only true recordings of pipes are going to be stereo recordings with a vertically mounted pair directed at both ends of the pipe?

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: KB7DQH on October 11, 2010, 01:35:32 PM
http://westfield.org/public/newsletters/2010-summer.pdf

Dear Eric

WOW! Thanks for finding this one. Excellent article on Temperament, well worth reading with excellent examples. What is interesting also is the Chopin conference . . . which considers instrument but not issues of temperament - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvHq8HvTKg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw8FjHvHu30

Best wishes

David P

Is this all we are?

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

The following email received this evening bears hallmarks of
http://www.antespam.co.uk/419/

Although these emails have been common for a decade, people are still getting caught out . . . The following email is so ridiculous I hope everyone will simply find it amusing!

Best wishes

David P

QuoteHello Sir/Madam,

   My Name is  Rev David crane, i like to place an order for pipe organ, i will like you to get back to me with types and sizes that you in stock  or have available now and  price range, or can you email me with your website, i will be waiting for your reply, also let me know the type of payment you do accept?master card  or visa card.please add your name and contact details
REGARDS..............David

Quote from: NeilCraig on October 10, 2010, 11:27:54 PMThe phasing/lack of richness and blending are best heard,  . . .

Hi!

I have an interesting example of lack of blending for a whole host of different reasons. The original 1993 Makin Encore which served Londonderry has a Diapason which, before improvement by way of better speakers, was one of those where it's difficult to distinguish between a Diapason, Horn and Posaune, at least through BAD speakers! Apparently there is a real pipe diapason like at at Norwich Cathedral, but next to my Hunter pipe organ, it was not the stop I wanted. I happened to buy an Ahlborn Romantic unit and the B division has just the right Diapason, and, through good speakers, sounds very very close to the pipe organ. I'm told that it's more of the sound of a slotted diapason.

The interesting thing is that in the Great Chorus, choosing one stop from the Makin and another stop from the Ahlborn sounds remarkably real. But in its way, the Slotted Diapason has too much character and the Makin Diapason "blends" better.

Sorry - this example is off topic - but stops blending is a black art!

Actually, for all its faults through its original mediocre speakers, the Makin at Londonderry was said to be remarkably good - and it was for that reason that I bought it as a start with concerts in mind. I suspect that a lot of the current controversy with Hauptwerk and speakers and blending is on account of close listening at home. If one puts _good_ speakers 20-30ft high up on a wall in a large building, then one will probably find that the ambience is very forgiving of all the faults that people are finding. But really 2 way speakers simply cannot be designed to do well for organ music and should not be used.

Best wishes

David P