Organ matters - Organs matter!

Hi!

A quick perusal of Dr Burney's book was interesting as it was frustrating. I could not find any other references to current tuning in the 18th century. Can anyone track down anything else? Sorry for the quality of the photos of pages - was distinctly rushed

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: dragonser on October 05, 2010, 02:14:10 AM
I think that at the time I felt that the Church style of Organ playing was too formal.
[ note that this was probably due to the limited range of classical Organ music that I had been exposed to at the time ].

regards Peter B

Dear Peter

I don't think you need be embarrassed about such things - whilst the classical organ is supreme, it's a sad person who cannot have a smile on his face when he hears someone whistling a pretty tune, even if they whistle it on a romping Cinema instrument. At one of our concerts last year, following Bach, I insisted that the encore was something else - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgYkHA128ws - sorry it's not a real cinema instrument but at least it's capable of reconfiguring to approximate the job.

Best wishes

David P

Hi Marc and Peter

I bought it for a small school chapel, and it was OKish but had occasional outbreaks of mains hum with a loose connexion. So I replaced it with a small Viscount digital instrument and the Hammond was left in the music department. There, children abused it probably by switching it on and off rapidly and the self start doesn't work. It might only be a problem with a capacitor.  . .  We plugged it in today and as long as you turn the spindle slightly, it accelerates up to speed from there.

I paid £50 for it but don't expect to receive anything for it. Whoever can collect it first has it . . . !

Marc - oh dear I think we suffer the same affliction.

It gives a good punchy sound. Not at all as refined as the 1937 Hammond E but it's a typical Hammond sound with good vibrato, chorus and spring reverb. THere's mains hum on the reverb which is probably on account of a loose connection. The percussion effects don't work, no doubt for the same reason.

However, with 61 note manuals, it's a console capable of serious playing and the light waterfall keys are a joy to glissando with . . . !

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

A console ripe for midi conversion has just arrived in my barn and is offered free to anyone who would like it.

61 note manuals, 25 note pedalboard, not ideal but usable

With it comes a two channel valve amplifier with good enough transformers for good bass, the normal downfall of valve amps.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Brilliant! Superb project. Doable too.

Is there any chance of setting up a Paypal account to pay funds into?

There are many people who sell surplus stuff on ebay and, being paid through paypal, it would be really easy to, for instance, vouch to donate the profit of one's next five sales to your project.

Best wishes

David P

Dear Peter

This is an edition I believe by Guilmant, early 20th century when of course everyone played everthing with pedals. So PED is marked as an option. But the reality is that it's a straightforward piece for manuals only. The miniature clef indications are a puzzle - I had not looked at them before! The bass one seems to be based on a line down whilst the upper one might indicate that both upper and lower Fs are to be sharpened . . .

Hopefully an early music expert might enlighten us?

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

This sort of issue is clearly on film-makers' minds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3azioGDk6Q

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Whenever I talk of unequal temperaments the response is that they are fine in the good keys and that one needs to change temperaments for those in "bad" keys in which other temperaments might be better. The thought that temperaments were used only to create greater harmonicity is a common misperception.

Unequal temperaments also created various forms of discomfort and harmonic emptiness, hollowness - absense of harmonic associations and harmonic meanings, all of which were intended emotionally and sometimes for special effects.

In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvHq8HvTKg on the piano further to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmCgZq6Lmm0 in which I explored audible products of hearing two tones together on the harmonic series, I showed how Chopin used the unequal temperament effects in his famous Funeral March.

The psychoacoustic effects of harmonic accordance are extraordinary. Looking at the wave peaks that pass the ears in a given time,
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | heard with
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   
adds to produce
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |


|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |heard with
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
adds to produce
|           |           |           |           |           |

which is either heard directly or "understood" in the brain. The combined coincidences of wavefronts make this pair of notes, especially when played with other relating notes, all adding up, all confirming the periodic peaks, make this sound "solid".

The ear and brain identifies a non-according pair of notes differently:

when
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | is heard with a detuned note
|    |   .|   |   |    |   |   .|   |    .|    |   .|   |   |    | (the exact peaks should be equally spaced but typographical limitations do not allow this) the wave peaks don't coincide in a way that relates to any harmonically related note. In fact there is only one point of coincidence in this series:
                                             | and therefore the notes within any surrounding chord do not have the same auditory meaning. The wave peaks don't coincide in any way or pattern that the brain can anchor onto any other surrounding note, and so the two notes, and other any notes with them sound hollow, meaningless, or simply confuse any other accordance that there might be. Equal temperament does this all the time - the "certainties" that the brain understands and recognises in perfectly harmonic chords are missing and in the unequal temperaments even more so in the black keys. There are times when pianistic composers arpeggiate in the remote keys, skating around with fragility as on thin ice. Here's an example of Liszt in B major: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6QT3e-Mqh0 and again, Liszt setting up a landscape: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov-8Dc0ireI

The following piece by Couperin is really interesting. In equal tuning, it's bland although a discord or two shows up. It's easy to play so worth playing, even if classical music isn't your thing - it's worth giving a go.

Try it in Meantone if you can, and use a basic Bourdon at 8ft and 16ft pitches, soft Diapasons at 8ft and 16ft (leave them out if you only have hard Diaps), a principal 4ft a flutish 2ft and as many high sparkling mixtures as your organ has, all coupled together. (If you have access to a Hauptwerk simulation of St Maximin use - Resonnance Petit Fourniture IV, Cymbale IV Grande Fourniture II Prestant 4' Montre 8' and 16' and Bourdons to thicken it if you  want, Positif Cymbale III Doublette 2 Montre 8 Prestant 4' and Fourniture III, both Positif and Resonnance coupled to Grand Orgue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTStijofmw for actual sound - although Couperin would have expected Meantone tuning rather than the beautifully mild well temperament in use at St Maximin).

In this piece, when all the chords have notes which accord harmonically, with perfect thirds and nice fifths, the sound is BRILLIANT. These sections contrast with areas where the notes discord and the temperament enhances the discomfort. It is intended to do that, and the meantone temperament is hideously unforgiving of mistakes:  http://www.organmatters.co.uk/couperinkyrie.jpg



As you go through this in Meantone, some chords are soothingly pure and express beautiful love - perhaps linger a shade on those chords which are wonderfully harmonious, and then sometimes but most noticeably in the 4th stave, second bar, first chord is excruciating crisis - Couperin goes from harmony to crisis and then resolves it. When playing this in Meantone, beyond playing the notes, I prefer to linger on those chords which have more meaning and don't simply rush through them. You can see the mark annotated after that chord to take a breath - the chord is hot so a breath is needed before we cool it down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj6mqEiSwr8 is a nice interpretation.

Best wishes

David P   

Hi!

Following discussions about the interference of "beat frequencies" which we hear when tuning, in pipe chambers at high sound pressure levels, and on electronic organs with loud stops, it's apparent that temperament and frequency differences, heard directly or unconsciously perceived are greatly interrelated and significantly important to the character and spirit of the tonalities of what we hear in music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WajSWTLtqE is a particularly interesting video. It shows how higher sounds resonate in the bass strings, but because in equal temperament the notes are not harmonically tuned, they resonate less. In Unequal Temperament some notes are wide of their harmonic counterparts and won't resonate at all, giving a skating on thin ice to those keys, whilst notes which are on the harmonic series of their counterparts in the bass will be beautifully resonant and "solid", "firm", "sure" and certain.

I have put together a video in which, if you play it through your computer speakers at high enough volume, you might be able to hear these beat notes and how they coincide, or otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvHq8HvTKg

Looking at the opening bars of Chopin's Funeral March, we can see how he was concurrently using two effects - both the disconcerting effect of following a Rooted chord (one where the notes all interrelate back to a root harmonic fundamental note) by an Unrooted chord (one where the difference frequencies of the notes are so wide of the fundamental note that they have no harmonic foundation and are perceived as sounds without meaning in their interrelationships), as well as using a chord which has a bell-like inharmonic aliquote or "partial" tone, actually heard in a vibrating ringing way to represent the bell tolling for the funeral.

This is possibly the most startling example of use of temperament and the effect is always to add emotion, often subliminally. In the case of the piano, perhaps being nearer to the instrument and therefore the higher sound pressures necessary to catalyse the perception of beat notes, the performer is more directly aware of the resonances, harmonies and rootlessness. If sensitive to them the performer will react to them. But the audience too, although not necessarily hearing the beat frequencies directly will be aware of a fullness or an emptiness in the chords which will therefore be thrown into three dimensions, some harmonies coming to the fore or receding.

The instrument and the performer through the composer can therefore be compared to projecting a hologram through to the audience, of which the performer and instrument tuner may be more aware of the patterns of waves on the holographic plate than the members of the audience. Just because the audience aren't directly aware of those wave patterns on the holographic plate does not mean that they won't receive the image of the hologram. In fact they do, and, both in theory and from tests by Adolfo Barabino and myself in making recordings in unequal and equal temperaments, music projected in unequal temperaments leaves a more emotional imact on the audience than when equal temperament is used.

When students have the opportunity of playing an instrument in unequal temperament, sometimes it can be very revealing as to the composers intentions and conveyed meaning. An example of this is in Chopin's 4th Ballade in which the waves of arpeggios focus and climax in a series of bar long chords in the centre, these chords having particular effects, harmonies leading to consonance in unequal temperament.

People often argue as to the "correct" temperament to use, but "well temperaments" in general followed on from Werkmeister who modified away from Meantone where all white note keys from C-A are essentially harmonious and all black note keys were on the basis of "venture here if you dare".

(From this historical perspective only a singular very recently proposed temperament is the odd man out and should not be included in the academic repertoire)

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

After doing three YouTube video recordings on this subject, I have concluded that multiple speakers do no more than give illusions of space in a home environment.

What really causes the unpleasant sounds of beat frequencies is volume - on quiet instruments and quiet stops, one hardly hears them - one only hears them when one is very close to the sound source and at a high sound intensity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmCgZq6Lmm0

I'm going to put more into the temperament thread about this . . .

However, in the nature of realism, just as it would be ridiculous to take the sound of the Albert Hall organ and squeeze it through a keyhole, likewise it's ridiculous to sqeeze it through perhaps 8 inch cylindrical holes which are what loudspeakers can be compared to.

One might therefore toy with the idea of a rule to determine the minimum number of speakers necessary to make an electronic organ sound natural in a large environment. Perhaps one might look at the vibrating area of a pipe in terms either of its mouth opening or of its diameter, or a combination of the two. In this way, at Tenor C one might expect an 8 inch loudseeaker to reproduce two 8ft Diapason pipes and a 4ft Principal. Perhaps at middle C, three 8ft Diapasons and a couple of 4ft Principal pipes. An octave above treble C, perhaps it might reproduce a dozen pipes naturally. Perhaps 16ft bottom C needs a 12 inch speaker all to itself . . .

However, certain speaker constructions force a speaker to fire through a slot, compressing the air, and one can compress with a ratio of up to 4:1 without distortion occuring. For this reason, one might be able to compress up to 4 times as many pipe areas per speaker, multiplying up the numbers suggested above.

If such a rule is followed, then one is going some way to the concept of shifting air in terms of the vibrations of organ pipes.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Elsewhere there has been much recent controversy as to how many channels an electronic organ should have. It has been asserted often that it's better to organise an instrument so that different notes come out of different speakers on account of "beat notes", the difference of the frequencies between the notes. It has been said so often that people have believed it, including myself, that the beat note resulting from two notes would be more prominent when the notes came out of one speaker rather than coming out of seperate speakers.

This evening I did the experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntPblldKpBw

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Some friends going to Antibes write:

QuoteThe Mougins Organ Festival runs each Sunday from the last weekend in September until end October. We plan to visit on Sunday 10th and stay over at the village.

Programme is Ben Joseph Steens from basilique St Remi de Reims includes Buxtehude,
Pachebel and Bach.

http://www.cote.azur.fr/actualites/info_festivals_musique_10835.htm gives more information for this year http://www.mougins.fr/fr/Accueil-Culture-Patrimoine/13eme-festival-dorgue.html

Mougins organ is interesting - it's built by the organ builder Yves Cabourdin at Carces (a delightful place http://www.info-france.co.uk/provence/carces.villa.rental.php )  who restored St Maximin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSf7-4t_SWc and so would clearly know how to build an interesting organ. http://orgue06.free.fr/orgMougin.html gives details about the organ

Another organ worth hearing is Villefranche Sur Mer, built by Grinda, pupil of Isnard at St Maximin, http://orgue06.free.fr/orgVillefranc.html and it's a pleasant place to stay - http://www.info-france.co.uk/riviera/villefranche/waterside.rental.apartments/ where the reality actually matches up with the photos . . . The organist at Villefranche is Claudine Grisi, a true lady and wonderful enthusiast for her instrument. A recording is available from the Tourist Office and is well worth buying.

North of Nice, a 20 minute drive beyond the town http://www.info-riviera.co.uk/rentals/nice.php is L'Escarene, http://orgue06.free.fr/orgEscar.html built by Grinda the next year. Concerts there are worth going to.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

After having seen destruction of organ by bulldozer documented by the photos on the front page of this site, I wanted to raise public appreciation of the organ outside conventional boundaries.

On that scale, http://www.bobrichardson.com/desert_organ_1.html must take first prize in truly pioneering spirit. However, I was unaware of that when I bought the Londonderry Cathedral Makin and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOAbmIOU-Ek
was the first concert nearly three years ago. This was recorded with the impoverished camera recorded sound so please don't judge the sound quality.

Here's the high quality sound:
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/organ/hugh-potton-1/mp3-6-1st-encore-beware.mp3
Beware your speakers!

This was the unaltered unimproved Makin, since enlarged to 5 manuals and vastly improved:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W2QdAOwhjY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe_eJ60PmtM
but the reason why I am drawing attention to it here are the comments:

BRAVO! LOVED IT!!!
The idea was brilliant, the execution suffered somewhat in the timing however!
That wasn't the absolute best performance of Lemmens that I've heard, but it was still quite good. The ballon trick was funny. When I finally figured out what was happening, I started laughing. They sounded like some electrical fuses that I've heard blow out.
The whole point is to have fun here - well done hammerwood!

Whilst one should not turn the organ into a circus, we clearly succeeded in conveying the idea that the organ is FUN! Can we provide more inspiration like this? Elsewhere? Here?

If any organist fancies playing at a venue where FUN is allowed, I'm game for anything in the spirit of promoting the King of Instruments . . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Thanks for pointing us in that direction - there's lots of Carol Williams' discs there - to my mind she's very good news for the Organ . . .

For 99p in the Specials, there's Foorte playing the Moller. Excellent site!

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

I'd be interested to know if any of the alternatives provide support for unequal temperaments?

Best wishes

David P

Dear Paul

It would be great if you could keep us updated here on how well the concert went and, if you'd like to do a concert at Hammerwood entirely in aid of the restoration of this instrument, you'd be welcome.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Whether or not anyone attended it's really encouraging to see the number of times this thread has been read. Thanks for posting photos of the auditorium and console too - very interesting

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on September 27, 2010, 02:10:30 AM
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Stunning-Vintage-Oak-Monastic-Chamber-Pipe-Organ-/360304591294?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item53e3d3c1be

Third time on eBay, much reduced in price - will no-one save it from the scrapman?

Hi!

Thanks so much for drawing attention to this. I wish the school could be persuaded that the instrument is an ASSET which should be cherished and which can inspire children musically.

As an instrument, it's certainly less humble than the spec might suggest:
    * SWELL - Salicional 8, Flute Douce 4, Flauto Amabile 8, Viola 8
    * GREAT - Flute Harmonique 4, Dulciana 8, Wood Diapason 8
    * PEDAL - Bourdon 16

Presumably on Swell, Viola or Salicional plus Flute will add as a Diapason or else the Viola might well be a stringy Diapason - possibly quite bright and with such instruments upperwork whilst theoretically necessary can be superfluous.

On Great, I wonder what Wood Diapason is? A stopped? The Dulciana may be voiced to add to the Wood to give it the spirit of an Open, but if the Wood Diapason is Open, perhaps one might move the Dulciana up an octave to a light 4ft Principal and the Flute to 2ft.

Were one of the chests to have a facility for a clamp-on, one might easily add a reed or 2ft or even a pouch box for electrical contacts for whatever else one might desire to do . . .

I wish the school would value it more as a musical instrument than just for its oak.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Beyond simple sandpaper on each wire - hold the wire aganst the contact with the sandpaper under the wire and pull the sandpaper, try aerosol contact cleaner and thereafter something like:
http://www.tableauproducts.com/categories/silver-plating-solution/41

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

These comments coming through are starting to be very interesting! I hope those thinking of daring to replace their good pipe organs with electronic instruments will find and read this thread. Perhaps on high profile installations manufacturers might ensure the result is worthy but more often than not, anything that rolls off a production line, however much it's said to be "customised" is going to be sold to customers rather than clients, and manufactured and sold as a matter of commercial profit rather than love of art.

In contrast I'm personally aware of a number of pipe organ builders who will go the extra mile in love of the results of their creation.

Whilst in encouraging enthusiasm for the the King of Instruments I dabble in the electronic arts, no-one can think that they can buy such an instrument off-the-shelf: electronics can serve a purpose, for a time (which is less than the life of a tracker pipe organ), and sound very good but provided very expert attention has been given to it. Furthermore the success of my instrument results to some extent in freedom to use technology from multiple manufacturers, so that characteristics do not run throughout the instrument and leading to the whole being more than the sum of the parts.

Best wishes

David P