Organ matters - Organs matter!

Organ registration => Organ registration => Topic started by: revtonynewnham on June 12, 2011, 02:48:39 PM

Title: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: revtonynewnham on June 12, 2011, 02:48:39 PM
Hi

Having just got in from helping out our local Anglican church playing the organ for a service of Infant Baptism and finding some rather strange piston settings, I thought I'd take a straw poll - when setting pistons do you include couplers or not?

I ask because virtually every piston at St Barnabas had either the Swell Octave, or Swell to Great plus Swell Octave to Great set - and every pedal piston that I tried had both Swell and Great to Pedal set.  No doubt Jim, the organist there, has his reasons for the piston settings, but I found them a nuisance!  I ended up hand registering everything.

My preference - except if I'm setting pistons for a specific piece - is to exclude all couplers (except maybe swell octave & sub-octave if they're needed - and all trmulants (perhaps more significant on Theatre organs).

What do others think?

Every Blessing

Tony
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Colin Pykett on June 12, 2011, 03:34:11 PM
I have two consoles here at home, both designed and made by myself.  They both have electronic capture combination systems. 

One console has departmental couplers included on each departmental piston setting.  This is not optional because there is no 'neutral' setting for the couplers.  So, for example, if you press 'Great 3', the swell to great will either pop in or out depending on how you set it.  The couplers are (of course) also included in the general piston settings, but this is usual.

The other console does not have departmental couplers included on the departmental pistons.  They are always 'neutral'.  They can only be controlled via the generals, or by hand of course.

On balance, I find I prefer the first arrangement.  I did it this way because of the logic which suggested that couplers affect the sound just as speaking stops do, therefore it seemed logical to include couplers on all departmental pistons.  I still go along with this.  With the second arrangement, it can be a confounded nuisance when, having shut down to a quiet great registration using 'Great 1', only to find full swell still bellowing through because the swell to great is still on!

However, there is an important proviso.  With the first arrangement (couplers included on all pistons), one absolutely must have a capture system in which quick changes can be made to the piston settings.  Multiple memory levels are almost as essential.  Otherwise registration via pistons becomes a nightmare, especially on a strange instrument, as Tony found.

Colin Pykett
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barrie Davis on June 12, 2011, 08:15:13 PM
Hi
I always leave the couples in neutral on departmental pistons with the exception of Swell 5 and 6 but the Octave can easily be taken off if needed.

Barrie
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Jonathan Lane on June 20, 2011, 09:28:09 AM
My preference is for couplers not to be available on departmental pistons, but as Colin said, available on the generals.  However, I know this is not always the case, and I too find it confusing when it is not so, as I would consider this to be the "norm".  Musicom lets us do what we want and we can change the settings after the event if necessary.

I think in this day and age where solid state systems, often computer driven have the capacity to carry hundreds of thousands of settings, multiple levels are desirable, and consequently, general pistons can be set up to operate changes where the need for coupler registration is also evident. 

Having said this, on strange organs I almost always register by hand!

Jonathan
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: pcnd5584 on July 11, 2011, 10:43:27 PM
I would agree with Jonathan Lane here; my preference is for the inter-departmental unsion couplers to be available on general pistons only.

On larger instruments, Harrisons used to provide two generals specifically for couplers (I have an idea that Willis III did something similar on his arguably over-supplied consoles). With regard to H&H, examples of this provision are the four clavier instruments in the cathedrals of Coventry and Exeter.

However, what I find even more irritating is the lack of a Great and Pedal Pistons coupler; fortunately this seems mostly confined to electronic organs - often of North American manufacture. Even allowing for the widespread U.S. habit of not normally setting divisional pistons in what might be termed 'crescendo order', I find this incomprehensible. I have never wished either to balance full G.O. with a solitary Pedal Bourdon (or vice versa) - nor have I a particular desire to have to stab at two pistons simultaneously, particularly when the Pedal and G.O. divisionals are placed on different keyslips.
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: revtonynewnham on July 13, 2011, 09:43:22 AM
Hi

Personally, I find the inevitable Gt to Pedal Pistons coupler of limited use - I don't always want the pedal to follow the gt registrations - especially when playing on another manual.

I supose it's down to playing style, and the type of music used - I do very little (if I'm honest, currently none!) liturgical or choral accompaniment - just leading hymns and playing voluntaries and the odd concert - plus the fact that I've never regularly played an organ with more than a handful of pistons - often just a couple of "composition pedals" - or no registration aids, so I tend to hand register a lot - even on instruments with a lot of pistons.  If it's appropriate, I might set some generals up for the start of various items, and I'll use the pp-ff divisional settings to some extent, but I've never come to rely on pistons.

Every Blessing

Tony
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: pcnd5584 on July 13, 2011, 04:10:09 PM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on July 13, 2011, 09:43:22 AM
Hi

Personally, I find the inevitable Gt to Pedal Pistons coupler of limited use - I don't always want the pedal to follow the gt registrations - especially when playing on another manual.

I supose it's down to playing style, and the type of music used - I do very little (if I'm honest, currently none!) liturgical or choral accompaniment - just leading hymns and playing voluntaries and the odd concert - plus the fact that I've never regularly played an organ with more than a handful of pistons - often just a couple of "composition pedals" - or no registration aids, so I tend to hand register a lot - even on instruments with a lot of pistons.  If it's appropriate, I might set some generals up for the start of various items, and I'll use the pp-ff divisional settings to some extent, but I've never come to rely on pistons.

Every Blessing

Tony

As you say, it may be that fact that you do little liturgical accompaniment. Believe me, if you do - particularly with mininmal rehearsal time, the Great and Pedal Pistons coupler is extremely useful.

If one were playing on another clavier than the G.O., then the H&H device of Pedal to Swell Pistons is most useful. This gives a separate Pedal combination to match whatever is drawn (or pressed) on the Swell Organ. Exeter Cathedral is again an example of this.
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barry Williams on July 13, 2011, 05:04:06 PM
Henry Willis III often provided the device of 'Suitable Bass' which automatically selected matching Pedal stops.

Wilis III consoles seem to me to be very comfortable, but then I am quite happy with Infinite Speed and Gradation Swell Pedals - a controversial matter, but musically useful.

Barry Williams
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barrie Davis on July 13, 2011, 08:29:48 PM
Didnt Compton have a device with the double touch on manual pistons Im sure St Martins Birmingham had this prior to the Nicholson rebuild.

Barrie
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barry Williams on July 13, 2011, 08:47:27 PM
Compton did indeed have double touch on manual pistons and sometimes on Pedal (Toe) Pistons. 

Our house organ has Compton keyboards and we have retained the doube touch.  It is most useful.

Barry Williams
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: pcnd5584 on July 13, 2011, 10:51:31 PM
Quote from: Barry Williams on July 13, 2011, 05:04:06 PM
Henry Willis III often provided the device of 'Suitable Bass' which automatically selected matching Pedal stops.

Wilis III consoles seem to me to be very comfortable, but then I am quite happy with Infinite Speed and Gradation Swell Pedals - a controversial matter, but musically useful.

Barry Williams

There is, or at least was, on the old Liverpool Anglican Cathedral organ console, also a piston to add the next more powerful stop on, I believe the Pedal and G.O.
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barry Williams on July 14, 2011, 09:00:15 AM
1.  The loft console at Liverpool Cathedral is still there and working.

2.  Infinite Speed and Gradation pedals are sprung in a cental position.  There is a gauge* to show the position of the Swell shutters.  The Swell pedal controls the speed of the opening or closing of the shutters, not their position.  THe mechanism is extremely useful and enables, for example, sforzando effects.  Also, it is possible to hold the shutters tightly closed.  If it is not possible to have a direct Swell pedal lingeage, then Infinite Speed and Gradation is a very musical alternative, though it takes some getting used to.  The modern servo motors are so good that I doubt if anyone would bother with the Infinite Speed and Gradation pedals now.

Barry Williams

*  The gauges were, I think, fuel gauges from Morris Minor cars.
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: David Pinnegar on July 14, 2011, 09:19:10 AM
Having worked with numerous recitalists for concerts at Hammerwood there are really three concepts to registration.

1. Hand registration and lots of manuals to effect quick changes

2. Pistons set in crescendo order, with generals into the bargain. Clive Driskill Smith and Hugh Potton work like this and whilst with such use of generals one can be in danger of reducing the totality of timbre of the whole instrument http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe_eJ60PmtM and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrvPmirH7c demonstrate how extraordinarily successful this can be and producing one of my favourite interpretations of the Reubke sonata . . .

3. Programmatic setting of pistons - Jeremy Filsell works like this, painting a canvas of sound programmatically choosing the particular stops passage by passage on only two manuals as can be seen on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLvOkW0vwMc and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD9FFPhyRd4 and other videos of his work.

As a footnote, I should express thanks to performers who allow themselves to be videoed as not only must any videos on YouTube generate an interest and enthusiasm but they have great instructional value.

Couplers on pistons depend therefore perhaps on whether one is using technique 2 or 3. . .

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: revtonynewnham on July 14, 2011, 10:07:20 AM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 01:16:27 AM
Old Liverpool Anglican Cathedral console? I know that a mobile console was recently provided, but has the loft console been replaced?



Hi

As Barry said, the loft console is still in position and used - we visited their a couple of years ago after an Organists' Assoc "mini trip" to Willis and, on spec, asked about seeing the organ.  One of the organists showed us the instrument and played a little on the main (loft) console.  We also saw the blowing plant (more like a mini power station in scale) and stored there is the old 2 manual mobile console.

Every Blessing

Tony
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barrie Davis on July 14, 2011, 02:31:45 PM
Dear VC

Before the mobile console and its 2 manual replacement there was a 5 manual console in the Central Space as well as the gallery, this console had all the prepared stops for the then proposed Central Space organ on it. I believe the rocking tablets used for the couplers were used on the 2 manual console now stored in the blowing plant. What happened to the CS console I dont know but think Willis may have removed it themselves.

Best wishes

Barrie
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: revtonynewnham on July 14, 2011, 07:14:24 PM
Hi

I heard a rumour that the original central space console had not been paid for!  The new central space mobile console is an impressive looking device.

Returning to an earlier post, which I'd missed because I was away, Compton organs (alomost?) always have double-touch thumb pistons - the 2nd touch bringing on the stops set on the corresponding pedal piston (so a bit of thought is required in setting up your pedal combination to work with all the manuals!)  The coupler pistons were also double touch, the 2nd touch cancelling - on the pedal couplers at least, the couplers to other manuals.

Comptons also featured double-touch stops (stop tabs, drawstops or luminous buttons) - these function by cancelling the other departmental stops when activated - very useful for quick solo registrations.  I've also come across DT stop keys on a Rushworth & Dreaper job - there they were a disaster - the 2nd touch springs were too light, and the function was applied to everything - including the Gt Mixture & Sw-Gt coupler (where the 2nd touch cancelled the entire Great!)  I've never had this problem on any Compton console.

Every Blessing

Tony
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barrie Davis on July 14, 2011, 08:36:04 PM
That wouldnt surprise me Tony!!!!!!

Yes the Bullring had double touch or pull drawstops on certain ranks

Best wishes

Barrie
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barry Williams on July 14, 2011, 09:13:44 PM
Another device is the Walker double touch canceller.  I found this confusing at first, but really rather useful once I got used to it.  The instrument concerned had the elephant tusk type stop keys, but was very easy to play.  There was a separate tab to cancel the canceller.

Barry Williams
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: revtonynewnham on July 15, 2011, 10:01:57 AM
Hi

Compton organs also normally have a switch to disable the double-touch stop mechanism - but, sadly, not the R&D that I mentioned earlier, that I had the "pleasure" of playing for a week of Christian meetings annually for several years.  It was small enough (4 rank extension) that the 2nd touch cancelling was very much a luxury.

Every Blessing

Tony
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barrie Davis on July 16, 2011, 10:14:10 AM
Hi

Yes there was a switch on the console to disable the double touch but the great "GF" had this taped over!!

I quite liked the old Walker tusks, I played the 5 manual in Tewkesbury which had these and found it so easy to register (with the prepared for stops covered with paper!!).

Barrie
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Jonathan Lane on July 16, 2011, 04:18:19 PM
If you want ease of use however, the Compton luminous stop knobs are the easiest.  One action can select and cancel stops in a way it is impossible to do on pretty much any other stop system.

Jonathan
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Barrie Davis on July 16, 2011, 07:17:49 PM
Ive never used this system Jonathan but assume they are a pain when bulbs fail as with some recent toasters.

Barrie
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: diapason on July 16, 2011, 07:33:50 PM
Roger Taylor, who looks after Downside Abbey organ which uses these illuminated 'drawstops' told me many years ago that he was having great difficulty in getting hold of the correct bulbs.  The Compton organ in All Saints Weston-super-Mare is similar.  I've not played it myself, but it sounds superb in the hands of the resident organist, Christopher Manners, former MD of Percy Daniel & Co.

Nigel
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Jonathan Lane on July 16, 2011, 09:02:39 PM
Yes, I am sure, but I suspect someone could come up with a suitable substitute (incidentally I need to sort out a similar problem here with a Viscount, or install a pipe organ!)  The Compton I used to play regularly was Holy Trinity Hull, one of the finest organs in the country!

Jonathan
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: diapason on July 16, 2011, 09:39:51 PM
The local Viscount dealer, Geoff North of WM Organs in Highbridge, Somerset, might be able to help you out with bulbs.  I think this is a regular service job for him.  But better to install a pipe organ if you can! 

Compton built some very fine organs.  I particularly like one of his small jobs - the organ in west Bagborough near Taunton.  http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N05510  The original part of the organ - now the Echo - is 1811 Lincoln.  Compton added a second manual in 1925, keeping the beautiful Georgian case intact (but making it deeper) and keeping tracker action.  the whole organ is enclosed and its a beauty.

Nigel
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: Jonathan Lane on July 17, 2011, 12:06:21 AM
Quote from: diapason on July 16, 2011, 09:39:51 PM
The local Viscount dealer, Geoff North of WM Organs in Highbridge, Somerset, might be able to help you out with bulbs.  I think this is a regular service job for him.  But better to install a pipe organ if you can! 
Will follow this up!
Quote from: diapason on July 16, 2011, 09:39:51 PM

Compton built some very fine organs.  I particularly like one of his small jobs - the organ in west Bagborough near Taunton.  http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N05510  The original part of the organ - now the Echo - is 1811 Lincoln.  Compton added a second manual in 1925, keeping the beautiful Georgian case intact (but making it deeper) and keeping tracker action.  the whole organ is enclosed and its a beauty.

Nigel

The interesting and important factor at Hull is the substantial three manual Forster and Andrews was the basis for the work in the 1930's.  F&A had already enlarged the organ in 1908 to 55 stops, and Compton's 104 speaking stop organ utilises the F&A sound a great deal.

I miss playing it!

Jonathan
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: londonorganist on February 01, 2015, 01:32:10 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on July 13, 2011, 04:10:09 PM

If one were playing on another clavier than the G.O., then the H&H device of Pedal to Swell Pistons is most useful. This gives a separate Pedal combination to match whatever is drawn (or pressed) on the Swell Organ. Exeter Cathedral is again an example of this.


The H&H system of separate Pedal combinations is, as you say, extremely useful, as it allows you to build the pedal without upperwork, which often can dominate if the swell is closed!
It is worth mentioning though that HNB pioneered this stop, although their system used a more basic function, where it kept the pedal one divisional step behind the swell. (I. E. Swell 5 would draw Pedal 4, etc.)

I use it when accompanying psalms as I tend to use the swell alone quite alot.

Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: pcnd5584 on February 01, 2015, 10:12:50 PM
Quote from: londonorganist on February 01, 2015, 01:32:10 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on July 13, 2011, 04:10:09 PM

If one were playing on another clavier than the G.O., then the H&H device of Pedal to Swell Pistons is most useful. This gives a separate Pedal combination to match whatever is drawn (or pressed) on the Swell Organ. Exeter Cathedral is again an example of this.


The H&H system of separate Pedal combinations is, as you say, extremely useful, as it allows you to build the pedal without upperwork, which often can dominate if the swell is closed!
It is worth mentioning though that HNB pioneered this stop, although their system used a more basic function, where it kept the pedal one divisional step behind the swell. (I. E. Swell 5 would draw Pedal 4, etc.)

I use it when accompanying psalms as I tend to use the swell alone quite alot.

Interesting - I did not know of the HN&B system - despite playing a number of their instruments.  However, I should still prefer the H&H system, since it is rather more flexible. Pedal Seven as against Swell Eight on a large instrument would still be likely to over-balance the Swell  Organ.
Title: Re: Couplers on Pistons
Post by: londonorganist on February 01, 2015, 11:25:05 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on February 01, 2015, 10:12:50 PM
Interesting - I did not know of the HN&B system - despite playing a number of their instruments.  However, I should still prefer the H&H system, since it is rather more flexible. Pedal Seven as against Swell Eight on a large instrument would still be likely to over-balance the Swell  Organ.

Oh I agree! That is often why I add the reeds by hand as such a problem arises if I use the pistons for full swell. It is simply like that (I assume) because of the age of the system, which was invented back in the electro-mechanical days before H&H introduced their system. Nowadays I prefer the H&H system, as you say, it is much more flexible.