1903 E. H. Lawton in Aberdeenshire, on EvilBay

[NonPlayingAnorak]

The listing - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/250738577689 - concerns a 1903 E. H. Lawton organ in a Free Church roughly 10 miles west of Aberdeen. Its stoplist - http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D04919 - suggests a very limited and probably rather dull instrument, not much different to one of those horrid little Casson Positive things. On the other hand, the pipework may be of decent quality, and may not even require revoicing. The case, although plain, is also pleasing. However, I cannot see any future for instruments like these in churches... they are so limited and so lacking in tonal colour that they make hymn-singing a truly dreary affair. There is no excuse these days, with so many good two- and three-manual organs on the market, for taking significant steps to prolong the life of an organ like this in such a form. If, however, it could be enlarged to two manuals with some secondhand pipework...

[revtonynewnham]

Hm

I wonder where the Lawton attribution comes from?  Or did he just install it?  Still, if the pipework is OK (and Positive organ co. products did usually have good pipes, and were a product that was very successful in filling a particular role) then it should be a nice practice organ, either as-is or, sadly, as a source of parts.

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

Its stoplist - http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D04919 - suggests a very limited and probably rather dull instrument, not much different to one of those horrid little Casson Positive things.

Hi!

One should not be so opinionated about organs: sometimes one can be quite surprised and it's really a case of being fit for purpose. The local instrument at Hammerwood is a distinct octopod apparently to be thoroughly despised - but it's remarkably bright with just one 4ft and _works_ in its setting. It's so bright it hardly needs a reed. Of course unsuitable for recitals, but as a parish organ to accompany hymns and do some tuneful voluntaries, it's brilliant.

Decades ago I caused a church to save a Casson Positive, and save a lot of money too, when their organ builder put a pile of mouse droppings in the first place one would look upon inspecting inside the instrument, claiming that mice had damaged the pneumatic motors. The instrument is still in place, still serviced by an organ builder I put in touch and in use in a parish where it does what is required of it admirably.

Best wishes

David P

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Hm

I wonder where the Lawton attribution comes from?  Or did he just install it?  Still, if the pipework is OK (and Positive organ co. products did usually have good pipes, and were a product that was very successful in filling a particular role) then it should be a nice practice organ, either as-is or, sadly, as a source of parts.

Every Blessing

Tony

The attribution comes from your own website, Tony... it looks like a Casson stoplist, but the case makes me doubt any alleged Casson origin. Or maybe Lawton recased a Casson.

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Hi!

One should not be so opinionated about organs: sometimes one can be quite surprised and it's really a case of being fit for purpose. The local instrument at Hammerwood is a distinct octopod apparently to be thoroughly despised - but it's remarkably bright with just one 4ft and _works_ in its setting. It's so bright it hardly needs a reed. Of course unsuitable for recitals, but as a parish organ to accompany hymns and do some tuneful voluntaries, it's brilliant.

Decades ago I caused a church to save a Casson Positive, and save a lot of money too, when their organ builder put a pile of mouse droppings in the first place one would look upon inspecting inside the instrument, claiming that mice had damaged the pneumatic motors. The instrument is still in place, still serviced by an organ builder I put in touch and in use in a parish where it does what is required of it admirably.

Best wishes

David P

I've seen the Hammerwood P.C. organ on the NPOR - an unaltered 2-manual T.C. Lewis. There's a huge difference between a 2-manual and pedals and a 1-manual with no pedals or just a short-compass stopped or quinted thing extended off the manuals, just as there is a huge difference between a mass-market off-the-shelf thing for tin tabernacles and one of Mr. Lewis' masterpieces. Even his very small organs are gems - with a quality that is astonishing. Spotted metal pipes, the best wood throughout, their construction and voicing are impeccable. I've encountered loads of them, and they're gorgeous, singing instruments. I have, though, also encountered a few Cassons... they are nothing like as flexible, nor as bright. They are dreary instruments which give the organ as a concept a bad name. They would be best all collected up, their pipework salvaged for rebuilding into larger organs (whether new or extant), maybe some other bits reused too, and the rest scrapped.

Of course, an organ builder putting mouse droppings in an organ to try and persuade them to spend out on a new organ is rather extreme! If the pneumatic motors are in good nick, no reason why they can't be reused...

Now, I have encountered the odd single-manual instrument that has been glorious - the Elliott at East Marden, near Petersfield, comes to mind. It sings beautifully - but it's not voiced like one of those Casson hymnboxes.

[revtonynewnham]

Hm

I wonder where the Lawton attribution comes from?  Or did he just install it?  Still, if the pipework is OK (and Positive organ co. products did usually have good pipes, and were a product that was very successful in filling a particular role) then it should be a nice practice organ, either as-is or, sadly, as a source of parts.

Every Blessing

Tony

The attribution comes from your own website, Tony... it looks like a Casson stoplist, but the case makes me doubt any alleged Casson origin. Or maybe Lawton recased a Casson.

Hi

Whilst I'm one of the editors on NPOR, it's not specifically "my" web site, it's run by BIOS.  Also, we are reliant on information from various people who note details of organs - and unless we can find other sources for "suspect" information, we have to enter it as is - maybe with a note to query it - but that depends on the knowledge of the editor involved.  I had a similar example just last week when a surveyor told us that a 1960's Compton had tracker action - the stop list looked to me like a small extension job, but I've no way of checking (a journey to East Anglia isn't exactly feasible!).  One thing I have learned is that all sorts of weird things do crop up on pipe organs - in the case I mention, maybe it's actually a Compton rebuild of an earlier organ, and my assumption is wrong.  The same goes for the Lawton/Positive issue that you mention - it's certainly not impossible that Lawton used a similar Melodic Bass arrangement to the POC - it's not exactly rocket science to devise such things - or maybe he had a license to use their patents?

Over the years, I've come to appreciate the vast majority of pipe organs for what they are - the original designer usually knows best, and very few enlarged organs seem to totally "hang together".  A small organ like the Lawton is quite adequate for many churches, and as a practice instrument for some players.  Heck, I've played for a packed Christmas eve Eucharist (c.500 attendance) on a smaller organ than the Lawton with no problem leading the singing - and not using full organ all the time!

The chamber organ here is adequate for our needs in church.  Yes, it would be nice to have a 2nd manual and pedals and a bigger range of stops - but a) we don't have space, so if I insisted on 2 manuals we'd have to go for a small extension job with all the compromises that entails; an (b) a totally unique small organ would probably have ended up being scrapped.

Every Blessing

Tony

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Tony, I won't argue with you, since your knowledge/expertise/experience all vastly outstrip my own, but I have this to ask: with churches closing left, right and centre, organs being scrapped in their dozens if not hundreds, is merely "quite adequate" enough any more? Surely the key to fighting back is instruments with the ability to inspire? These need not be huge (as the Saint-Martins at Petersham and Girton, Cambridge, the Frobenius at Stoke D'Abernon, the Cavaillé-Coll at Farnborough, etc, prove), but they just need to have a very distinctive character. Even the 13ss Henry Jones I knew a few years ago was quite lovely - but, in a 400-seat Catholic church with a resonant acoustic , it was nothing like adequate.

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

Inadequate in what sense?  What the organist would like - or what's really needed for the church?

A big problem in areas like Bradford is that the wealth of Victorian times has left many churches with large organs - far larger than is NEEDED to play hymns - and even to accompany a choir (where there is one - not so common these days) and not enough money to restore or rebuild them - and all too often no-one to play them.

Also, rebuilding & enlarging has been responsible for the destruction of too many truly historic organs - and whilst I don't believe that the church should operate as a museum, there does need to be a balance struck.

Yes - I would LIKE a bigger and more versatile organ in my church - but it's not really a necessity - and anyway, we wouldn't have space unless we disposed of the pipe organ and went down the electronic route, with all the drawbacks in terms of sound quality and life expectancy that entails.

Every Blessing

Tony

[Barrie Davis]

Hi

Thank you for the reply Tony  you are so very right.

Not far from where I live is a very large Catholic church which has in its west gallery a N&B circa 1906, Ped 1 Gt 4 Sw 5 nothing above 4ft on the manuals. This literally fills the building.

So why do we need to enlarge instruments which fulfill the needs of the church? I know the organist would lobe this and that added but luckily this has been opposed.

Barrie

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Hi

Inadequate in what sense?  What the organist would like - or what's really needed for the church?

A big problem in areas like Bradford is that the wealth of Victorian times has left many churches with large organs - far larger than is NEEDED to play hymns - and even to accompany a choir (where there is one - not so common these days) and not enough money to restore or rebuild them - and all too often no-one to play them.

Also, rebuilding & enlarging has been responsible for the destruction of too many truly historic organs - and whilst I don't believe that the church should operate as a museum, there does need to be a balance struck.

Yes - I would LIKE a bigger and more versatile organ in my church - but it's not really a necessity - and anyway, we wouldn't have space unless we disposed of the pipe organ and went down the electronic route, with all the drawbacks in terms of sound quality and life expectancy that entails.

Every Blessing

Tony

I think you have missed my point. I'm talking about inspiring members of the congregation, really impressing them. Surely this is the best way of preserving our organs for the future?

[NonPlayingAnorak]

Hi

Thank you for the reply Tony  you are so very right.

Not far from where I live is a very large Catholic church which has in its west gallery a N&B circa 1906, Ped 1 Gt 4 Sw 5 nothing above 4ft on the manuals. This literally fills the building.

So why do we need to enlarge instruments which fulfill the needs of the church? I know the organist would lobe this and that added but luckily this has been opposed.

Barrie

Near here is a large Catholic church with a 1905 Henry Jones, rebuilt Walker 1964. It's tubular pneumatic on the pedals, tracker to the 2 manuals. Pedal Bourdon/Bass Flute - Great Open Diapason, Dulciana, Hohl Flute, Principal, Fifteenth - Swell Viol d'Orchestre, Voix Celeste, Lieblich Gedact, Gemshorn, Nasard, Piccolo. It's a lovely organ - but it's hopelessly inadequate for the building. It's completely drowned out every Sunday by the congregation, who like to sing well, despite being. The church really needs a sizable 3-manual instrument, and my mother and the parish priest were talking seriously about some building work, completing the church (a spacious organ chamber on the South side of the Chancel, with a tower over, plus an unbuilt north aisle, taking the seating capacity up to about 600) and installing a secondhand organ of 30-40 speaking stops. Unfortunately, the dumbing-down brigade (a tiny minority in a parish appreciative of good music and good churchmanship) put paid to it all, we suspect getting the Bishop, no fan of anything good, involved, and my mother was forced to leave the church (taking with her me, my brother, our father, plus two local boys, twin brothers, who were nominally Organ Scholars, and who were both soon after awarded Oxford organ scholarships - so much prestige for the church down the drain!).