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Messages - pcnd5584

#181
In order to clarify: the above post, the scheme for the organ of Gloucester Cathedral represents the way I might have re-designed the scheme, taking its state in 1967 as a starting point. The claviers retain the same number of stops as that which obtained after the H&H rebuild of 1920. The Pedal Organ has been given some additional ranks, according to the criteria listed above. However, I have only allowed those additions which would fit within the well of the Pulpitum on the north side.
#182
Quote from: David Pinnegar on July 29, 2011, 06:58:35 PM
...I note that since filling in more details about this mad genius musician, which are so extreme by any measure as to be hopefully both serious and entertaining, my "karma" rating has dropped two points. . .

It would be sociable for people who receive negative scores to know why . . . - the fact that Moderators of this forum haven't got away without negative points says either that they, and I, must be doing something wrong - or otherwise right by way of offering challenging views. ...

Best wishes

David P

I have also thought this - although I am fairly certain that I know the point of origin of my negative points. Consequently, I am not expecting an explanation any time soon....


#183
Quote from: KB7DQH on July 30, 2011, 08:52:22 PM
Another research project  :o 8) ;D ;) :)  One needs to answer  important questions... Which Hope-Jones organ still in existence is the oldest? 

The "chatter" would indicate Pilton is a likely candidate...  ....


Eric
KB7DQH

The Hope-Jones organ in Pilton Church, North Devon has been altered considerably. See here for the original stop-list:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N10506  and here for the present details:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D02980

I did once play this instrument. The experience was interesting....

So, although this organ was built in 1898, it is now substantially different, so I am not sure that it would still qualify as a Hope-Jones instrument. I have to confess that I am mystified by at least part of the description on the NPOR survey: '...a16' pedal reed, with a rank of Septima on second touch'. I am cognisant of what a flat twenty-first is, but I have never seen it spelled this way - if that is what is meant, here. In any case, I am not sure why one would want a Bombarde with a flat twenty-first available on second touch....

I wonder if the additions to the Pedal Organ were influenced by the Roger Yates rebuild of the organ in the Church of Saint James the Great,  Kilkhampton, North Cornwall. This instrument was rebuilt by Yates in 1958, with the Pedal (French-style) Bombarde being added in 1962, the work again carried out by Roger Yates. The survey link is here: http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N11195

It will be noted that there are certain similarities between the Kilkhampton scheme and the additions to the organ of Pilton Church. There is probably less than twenty miles' distance between the two instruments.



#184
A number of friends have, at various times, mentioned certain English cathedral organs which they do not like - either because of the specification (and therefore, the voicing) or due to such things as an uncomfortable console or an unhelpful layout.

Now here is your chance to redesign these instruments in a way which is more practical - or in a style which you would consider to be more tonally appropriate.

Or, if you prefer, you can simply go back in time and rescue an organ from certain transformation. There are but three stipulations:

1) You must return to the point immediately before the rebuild which you consider to have spoiled the organ - but obviously, it cannot be an exact re-incarnation of its previous specification.
2) The upperboards cannot be re-worked to increase the number of stops (save in the Pedal Organ); so, apart from the odd extra Solo reed, the departments must have the same number of speaking stops as before.
3) It should make sense (on paper, at least) as a viable musical instrument, equally suitable for choral accompaniment and solo playing.

With this in mind, I am going to start off with the organ of Gloucester Cathedral. My starting-point is 1969-70 - Ralph Downes is on holiday and so he missed the invitation to re-design the FHW / H&H instrument....

PEDAL ORGAN

Double Open Wood (Ext.) 32
Open Wood 16
Open Diapason (M) 16
Sub Bass 16
Quintatön (Solo) 16
Principal (M) 8
Violoncello (M) 8
Flute 8
Fifteenth (M) 4
MIxture (15-19-22) III
Contra Posaune (Ext.) 32
Ophicleide 16
Posaune 16
Clarion (Ext. Oph.) 8
Choir to Pedal
Great to Pedal
Swell to Pedal
Solo to Pedal


CHOIR ORGAN
(Unenclosed)

Viola da Gamba 8
Claribel Flute 8
Gemshorn (conical) 4
Suabe Flöte 4
Flageolet 2
Mixture (15-19-22) III
Swell to Choir
Solo to Choir


GREAT ORGAN

Double Open Diapason 16
Open Diapason I 8
Open Diapason II 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Octave 4
Flûte Harmonique 4
Octave Quint 2 2/3
Super Octave 2
Sesquialtera (17-19-22) III
Furniture (15-19-22-26-29) V
Double Trumpet 16
Trumpet 8
Clarion
Great Reeds on Pedal
Great Reeds on Choir

Choir to Great
Swell to Great
Solo to Great


SWELL ORGAN

Open Diapason 8
Lieblich Gedeckt 8
Salicional 8
Vox Angelica (AA) 8
Principal 4
Lieblich Flöte 4
Fifteenth 2
Mixture (22-26-29) III
Hautboy 8
Vox Humana 8
Tremulant
Contra Posaune 16
Cornopean 8
Clarion 4
Sub Octave
Unison Off
Octave
Solo to Swell


SOLO ORGAN
(Enclosed)

Quintatön 16  (70 pipes)
Viole de Gambe 8
Viole Céleste (CC) 8
Flûte Harmonique 8
Flauto Traverso 4
Orchestral Bassoon 16  (70 pipes)
Corno di Bassetto 8
Tremulant
(Unenclosed)
Tuba Mirabilis 8
Trompette Harmonique 8
Sub Octave
Unison Off
Octave

COMBINATIONS

Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled
Pedal to Swell Pistons
Generals on Swell Foot Pistons
#185
Quote from: dsbutterworth on July 25, 2011, 01:41:36 PM
For me, the Marcussen organ in St Mary's Nottingham is utterly insipirational. Magnificent tutti and fantastic variety of colours from only 25 registers.

Dear David,

Firstly, may I add my welcome to those who have already done so. I hope that you will gain much enjoyment from this board.

I wonder if I may also ask for further information regarding the instrument which you mention. For example, is the church resonant - and, if so, roughly to what degree?

In addition, are you able to tell me what it is like as an accompanimental instrument, please?

I note, from the website of the church choir, that a varied repertoire is performed here - although I was interested to see the repetition of Gray, in F minor within three weeks. This is a difficult setting, certainly as far as the maintenance of the pitch is concerned. I assume from this that the choir is highly competent. Certainly, the clip of Stanford's Beati quorum via is beautifully sung, with excellent control.

Whilst I note that John Keys is the Director of Music, I am afraid I have no information as to whether you have a connection with this church.

If you are able to answer any of these questions, I would be grateful - thank you.


#186
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 25, 2011, 05:15:49 PM
.... However, Ralph Downes (who, famously, held forth no end on organs despite having very defective hearing) got involved and so a fine Romantic organ was wantonly destroyed.

This has been mentioned in one or two other sources, and I wonder how accurate it is.

I was fortunate enough to meet Downes, at the time I was writing my degree thesis. The organ of Gloucester Cathedral featured in one chapter and I desired further information that other sources had not supply fully. Ralph Downes was kind enough to agree to meet me at the RFH, after one of the 'Wednesdays at 5.55' recitals - now sadly missed from the London organ scene.

We sat in one of the open areas of the hall, with many people milling around - and with a not inconsiderable background noise. Downes appeared to have no difficulty whatsoever in hearing me. Neither did it seem that he favoured one ear or the other, I was allowed to sit where I chose. We had a fairly long, and utterly fascinating conversation. With regard to Gloucester and my thesis, he was most illuminating and helpful.

#187
Quote from: comptonplus on July 24, 2011, 01:22:43 AM
After the Fire, Dixon transferred to the Empress Ballroom on the IDENTICAL 3/13 Wurlitzer (10 ranks of which came from the Tower 2/10). During the War, Dixon also made many appearances back at the Tower, he didn't leave the UK!

The Tower Ballroom's original capacity was around 7000, according to a broadcast by Nigel Ogden some time ago. Again, I can check with the company archivist.

The available information to hand indicates that the original Wurlitzer was not identical. Apparently, Dixon (after receiving complaints from dancers that they were unable to hear the organ) re-designed the instrument, which was subsequently rebuilt. It appears that there were some additions made at this time.

In any case, if the organs were identical, why bother to transfer the original instrument six years after it was first built?
#188
Quote from: barniclecompton on July 23, 2011, 07:16:01 PM
Take into consideration the THOUSANDS of recordings Dixon made and released. Take into consideration the sheer number of people who went into that ballroom. From 1929- early 1980s it was packed every night with people in there thousands. Add onto that the thousands of world wide broadcasts Dixon made.
Anyone with a brain can work out that millions have heard that organ.

'Thousands' - that is a lot of recordings. Do you have a discography which you could either post, or link to here, please?

Again, do you know that it was packed every night from 1929 to the early 1980s? (Incidentally, Dixon retired from the Tower in 1970, when he was succeeded by Ernest Broadbent.)

I note that the legal capacity of the Tower Ballroom is a maximum of 3,000 persons. One should also factor into the calculations the point that Dixon did not play during his war service. (When Reginald Dixon joined up he was replaced by a female organist, Ena Baga, sister of Florence De Jong.) In addition, following a fire in December 1956, the Tower Ballroom was closed for rebuilding and restoration. Now, during this time, did Dixon simply transfer to the smaller Wurlitzer (which had originally stood in the Tower Ballroom, until 1935), or was there another gap in his service?

You also make the assumption that the audience consisted of entirely different people every night. Do you know that this was the case? If not, it is yet another aspect which will affect the overall figures.

Incidentally, 'thousands of world wide broadcasts' is a huge number of broadcasts. Far in excess of those made by organists such as George Thalben-Ball, for example. Again, please provide evidence to back up your claims - as opposed to simply making further unsubstantiated assertions.



#189
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 23, 2011, 06:05:21 PM
Rubbish. I'm sorry, but for sheer musicality and expressive power, St Ouen knocks the socks off any Wurlitzer, fine as it may be. Also, a lot of people (me for one) cannot stand the Blackpool Style of theatre organ playing...

I would have to say that I have a great deal in common with the spirit of this post. However, please try to keep this discussion courteous and considerate at all times.

It is still worth remembering that what one likes is not necessarily the only - or even the best - view.
#190
Quote from: barniclecompton on July 23, 2011, 04:51:06 PM
i can think of is the Wurlitzer Organ at the Tower Ballroom in Blackpool. Its been having people in large numbers hooked on organ music for over 70 years. The amount of organists who have started off learning after hearing the Wurlitzer at the Tower is countless! For the millions of people who have heard and it and danced to it over the years, it has gained a massive amount of fans for the organ, world wide. It has to be, to this day, the most recorded single instrument in the world.

Again, there are a number of generalisations and assumptions in this post. Please back up your statements by giving, as it were, chapter and verse. For example, how do you know that the number of organists who have been inspired to play the organ after hearing this instrument is 'countless'? Secondly, can you provide reliable statistics to show  that both 'millions have heard it' and that it is (or has to be) 'the most recorded single instrument in the world'?

There appears to be a note of desperation creeping into your posts - which manifests itself in some rather unwarranted statements. It would be helpful if you could provide some tangible evidence to support them.
#191
Quote from: organforumadmin on July 23, 2011, 10:37:27 AM
Mention of the CD was made on another thread - a hint of how this instrument is spectacularly "different" - and how the instrument matches the temperament of the player as we have seen on the other thread recently is given by the photo on the cover:

As you can imagine, those fiery trumpets don't disappoint . . .


The CD is well worth buying . . .


http://organanoraks.com/pcndcd1.html


Best wishes


Forum Admin

Thank you for your kind advertisement, David.

However, I am slightly alarmed to learn that I am fiery....!

#192
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 23, 2011, 06:27:51 PM
St Paul's Cathedral, Dundee, for one. Largely an early 1870s Hill, rebuild by Rothwell in 1937, then subsequently minor alterations made (and a new console to replace Rothwell's) by HNB in 1975. The NPOR survey has a number of inaccuracies (I think) - it calls the Orchestral Trumpet 'Grand Trumpet', which I think is wrong (though the pipework definitely hasn't been revoiced), and I'm certain there's an Orchestral Oboe on the Choir too. I'm told All Souls' Ascot has one, just called Trumpet. St George's Windsor has one too - which I was told by Mark Venning (IIRC) had not been revoiced. St Botolph Bishopsgate has one too, I think (simply called 'Heavy Reed'), but the instrument has been unplayable since the IRA bombing. In any case, this could predate Rothwell's work (NPOR suggests it might), so it could be by Lewis, Walker, Norman & Beard or Spurden Rutt. Difficult to say.

Thank you for this.

You may be correct about Dundee. However, I have played for a number of services and concerts at both Coventry Cathedral and Saint George's Chapel, Windsor Castle. I think that it is quite possible that the Orchestral Trumpet (which is partnered with an Orchestral Clarion) on the Solo Organ on the latter instrument was at least revoiced - if not actually new. To my ears, the stop at Windsor has nothing in common with any Tuba I have ever heard, but sounds quite similar to the Orchestral Trumpet (which also has an Orchestral Clarion) at Coventry - prior to the unfortunate revoicing a few years ago.

In fact, that at Coventry has been altered on two occasions. Initially, this was because someone wished to add a Tuba in memory of David Lepine, the first organist of the new cathedral. After some consideration, it was felt that this was simply not an organ in which a Tuba would sit well, so the Orchestral Trumpet (on 300mm pressure) was revoiced with slightly thicker tongues - but still having a wonderful fiery tone. More recently, it has again been revoiced - arguably to its detriment. It has lost that edge and éclat. Previously, adding the Orchestral Trumpet and Orchestral Clarion to the full organ almost left scorch marks down the Nave.

Again, to clarify, the like-named stop at Windsor has, to my ears, much of the vocal quality of the Coventry reeds - which were, of course, new in 1962. I strongly doubt that this would have been achieved if the pipes, reeds, shallots and boots, etc, were as left by Rothwell. It is also doubtful that Rothwell voiced it like this in the first place. Reeds such as these would have been unlikely to be popular in the 1930s.

The instrument at Bishopsgate has two names for many of the stops. Indeed, on the stop key in question is engraved the legend 'Heavy Reed 8'; however, the 'old' (or actual) name for this rank is 'Solo Trumpet 8'.   
#193
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 23, 2011, 04:10:30 PM
For my money, you just can't beat a Rothwell Orchestral Trumpet - big(ger) in scale, incredibly flexible, doing everything a Tuba or chamade can do as well as being a good chorus reed. H&H Tubas are a bit thick for me - though I do like a good Father Willis Tuba! That at Blenheim Palace is fabulous, not fat at all, just a searing shaft of golden sunlight. I just tend to find such thin chamades to be too buzzy and thin in sound.

I suspect that the whole thing could be explained if PCND were to name his favourite present-day American organ builder. Mine's Schoenstein, for the record, with Lively-Fulcher a close second.

I do not actually have a favourite American organ builder. I tend to prefer certain English firms, together with a few on continental Europe.

For the record, where would I be able to hear a Rothwell Orchestral Trumpet - in its original state, please?

#194
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 23, 2011, 11:14:21 AM
Ooh, really thin-scaled party horns. I'll withhold judgement, never having heard this organ, but such things are rarely pleasant...


[Moderators would not normally approve this post. Were the writer to have heard the use of these "party horns" in the two E7 chords on the 4th beats of the bar of the 3rd Mendelssohn sonata in the 6th and 5th bars before the reversion from the A minor section into A major, the writer would beware the sharpness of response he might receive from the player . . . Recommend buying the CD to hear it . . . Forum Admin]

Yes, they are of small scale. If one is expecting a fat Harrison-esque Tuba, which is able to give a good account of such pastiche pieces as Cocker's Tuba Tune, then there will be a measure of disappointment.

However, if one does not try to make this stop do something it was probably never designed to do, then it can be very exciting - even exhilarating.

Used, as Pierre Cochereau used the 'Boisseau' chamades at Nôtre-Dame de Paris, in chords (with or without mixtures), or with the Swell coupled, this stop can be most effective.

The Minster organ is not an instrument at which one can simply sit down, grab a few 'usual' combinations (or even use 'textbook registration'), and necessarily obtain a good effect in this somewhat arid acoustic. This organ is more difficult to get to know. It does not give up its secrets easily. It takes time to get to know what works - and what does not.

However, as David has said - buy the CD (please) - and hear it for yourselves.
#195
Quote from: comptonplus on July 23, 2011, 02:15:41 AM
Quote from: comptonplus on July 23, 2011, 12:24:02 AM
Other countries in Europe seem more willing to embrace other types of music than we do here in the UK! If it doesn't blast your brains out for the vast majority of youngsters and some well into theit 40's and 50's, forget it!

Back to the Howard Goodall bit, I was still at School when that was on and I remember mentioning it to quite a few friends who to the mick, I wonder if they would watch it now, however?

Indeed - times do change. Look at Helen Mirren....


Not sure I like how admin seem to be able to add into my posts making it liik at first glance that I typed it, I refer to the Helen Mirren bit!

My apologies - this was an error, which I have corrected. At least it was written in a different type-face....

This board appears to function slightly differently to the others on which I write - in terms of cutting and pasting.
#196
Quote from: David Pinnegar on July 23, 2011, 12:13:35 AM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on July 22, 2011, 11:48:09 PM
§ This term is both context-dependent and somewhat volatile. For the purpose of this post, I regard Poland as belonging to Central Southern Europe.[/font]

Um. Yes! Poland Southern? Perhaps south of Hamburg . . .

:-)

Gah - I should, of course, have typed 'Northern' - as opposed to 'Southern'. It is probably even mostly north of the Watfod Gap Services....

My excuse is that it is late and I am tired. Even worse, I cannot find where I put the half-finished bag of toffee popcorn from last night. Consequently, you see before you the postings of a distressed and hungry individual.

#197
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 23, 2011, 12:15:18 AM
As for what to call 'classical' music when it's not just classical, I think this is a problem we've been wrestling with for centuries! Um... intellectual? Oh, and note to moderators - DON'T NICK MY IDEA! IT'S MINE AND SO'S THAT CD IF I WIN!  ;D

Hmmm.... Not sure about that one - but it is a fair first try.


#198
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 22, 2011, 11:44:36 PM
PCND, I'm listening to that Cowan recording of the Willan as I write. It's difficult to form any impressions, as the 240p Youtube compressed audio has killed whatever reverb the room may have and likely the upper harmonics of the organ, so it all sounds a bit thick and flat, like a recording from a long time ago (coincidentally, it reminds me of Whitlock's recordings of the Parkstone Compton). However, it certainly proves the point that these are capable concert instruments and I would hope that more people play theatre organs 'straight', as it would, I suspect, win the theatre organ more fans from within the sometimes snobbish world of the 'classical' organ, as well as from the wider classical music world.

I take your point about the sound quality. This is, unfortunatley, often the case with YouTube clips. However, I am listening on a Logitech system with a bass bin and separate tweeters and, whilst I would not pretend that this set-up constitutes high fidelity reproduction, it does enhance it somewhat.


Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 22, 2011, 11:44:36 PM
If I'm honest, the cinema organ sounds I'm hearing are scarcely any worse than the Father Willis at Ewell with its Vox Humana and tremulant! I think Cowan could have laid off the tinkly percussion, but that's just personal taste. What I'd like to know is where Hope-Jones learned to voice - apparently his Tubas are very much like those of Fr Willis.

Hmmm.... the 'tinkly percussion'. I think that this was the part to which I objected.... also on grounds of taste. *

With regard to Hope-Jones and voicing: it is possible that he sub-contracted much of this to trade (but nevertheless highly skilled) voicers, such as W.C. Jones. This I would need to check.

Some of his Tuba stops may have sounded similar in timbre to those by FHW. However, I am fairly certain that, had it come to fruition, his plan to place a Tuba voiced on 2500mm (or 100" w.g., if you prefer) above the Canons' Stalls at Worcester Cathedral would more closely have resembled the Last Trump.

Thank goodness that one never materialised....



* Perhaps somewhat ironically, I believe that Willan specified this registration in the score at this point.
#199
Quote from: David Pinnegar on July 22, 2011, 11:40:06 PM
Hi!

It's great to see such a spirited and lively debate! Interestingly however, the situation in France is particularly different and possibly it depends upon how exciting the instrument is on which concerts are performed. During August recitals at Albi the cathedral is so packed that they have to turn people away at the door. St Maximin recitals are pretty full as also are those at L'Escarene on the salt route up to Italy behind Nice.

And all this with classical music even if it does include Charles-Alexandre Fessy (1804-1856) requiring the tremulant on the 1791 instrument and making it sound like a Wurlitzer . . .

It may be that those who consider that only Wurlitzers draw the crowds might usefully take a peek at what's happening on the Continent, which is very different. To some extent it depends on the charisma of the organist and how well the instrument can aspire to the title of King.

Best wishes

David P

Best wishes

David P

Thank you for this, David.

It is indeed good to hear of such things.

A colleague informs me that this happy situation is replicated in parts of Poland and certain Eastern European § countries (in which he regularly takes holidays). In Poland, in particualr, he has attended many organ recitals - which often seem to begin quite late in the evenings - in which there has been standing room only*. The music featured was, without exception, 'classical' organ music. (Incidentally, if someone can suggest an inoffensive, non-controversial but succinct alternative term, you can have one of my CDs free - including the postage to anywhere on mainland UK. First acceptable answer only. I cannot afford to give loads of  the things away....) To return to the saga of the Polish organ recitals. My colleague also said that he was often one of the oldest people in attendance (no, he is not particularly old). Apparently, there was a large proportion of teenagers and people who appeared to be in their early to middle twenties.



* He was referring specifically to cathedrals and other large churches, here.

§ This term is both context-dependent and somewhat volatile. For the purpose of this post, I regard Poland as belonging to Central Southern Europe.
#200
Quote from: comptonplus on July 22, 2011, 11:26:23 PM
Also, how do you know people didn't switch off their sets anymore than I know they did?? Just a thought. Maybe you have access to information I don't?

I simply read a number of reviews (and Letters to the Editor features) in certain well-known periodicals at the time. In addition, I also talked to many friends (not all of whom were particularly musical) about the programme.

For the record, viewing statistics are (or certainly were) available for many types of programmes, if one were to search for them.