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Messages - pcnd5584

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#221
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Christchurch Priory organ
July 17, 2011, 11:29:18 PM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 17, 2011, 10:25:50 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on July 17, 2011, 09:17:12 PM
apparently you have forgotton that the main purpose of the Grandes Orgues in a French church is not to accompany either a choir or the congregation, but to provide voluntaries and other (usually improvised) organ music during the services.

I wasn't thinking of rôles, merely physical layout. I had quite forgotten the Nave organ. In this case, I would have to ask - why tracker action at all?

Yes - but the rôle informs, or at least influences, the layout.

As has already been stated, why tracker indeed.


Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 17, 2011, 10:25:50 PM
On the other hand, some extremely complex layouts are still possible with tracker action - see http://www.mander-organs.com/portfolio/peachtree.html. However, here, clearly, the trackers run under the sanctuary floor - clearly impossible with an organ elevated in a gallery with an isolated nave division in a triforium. Admittedly, there is also a 2m/p West end organ (playable electrically from the East end console) but I suspect that, in that building, it's more a luxury than a necessity.

Incidentally, how does the organ at Chichester work? I think it's tracker action, but clearly it's in the North Transept arch, on a gallery, with the Nave division in the South Nave triforium, so that can't be tracker - and does one then have a problem with one action being faster than another? Reminds me of the organs at San Lorenzo del Escorial - merged from four (IIRC) into one by Organeria Español with electric action and a huge five-manual console up in the chancel, with a simply horrendous lag on the Nave organs.


The Mander rebuild and restoration of the organ of Chichester Cathedral is, as far as I am concerned (having played it no many occasions), superb.

The main instrument is as you describe it, with mechanical action to the five divisions of the main organ. The stop action also has a parallel Solid-State system, utilising powerful solenoids, of German manufacture, in order to 'drive' the combination pistons. The Nave Organ is on electro-pneumatic action - at least, I do not recall it being direct electric. I have no idea regarding the time lag with the main organ. In any case, the Nave Organ is used to bolster the singing of hymns, so even if one is playing on a moderate registration on the main organ, the Nave section cannot clearly be heard from the console. The congregation may hear the main organ fractionally later than the Nave section; however, as far as I know, the Nave Organ, once the upperwork is reached, dominates the sound. Incidentally, the Nave Organ also has its own console, situated on the floor of the Nave, on the north side.

A useful expedient when playing pieces on this organ, is to use a small amount of the Nave Organ, in order to help project the sound down the Nave, past the Bell-Arundel screen. If one were to use no more than the 8ft, stops with, perhaps occasionally the 4ft. Principal, in the Nave, this has the effect of amplifying the sound of the main organ, without detracting from its impact.

However, I am glad that someone has finally got around to authorising the addition of a Swell to Choir coupler.* The original omission of this, I always regarded as the only serious handicap on this otherwise excellent instrument.

Incidentally, the Solo Sub Octave coupler is electric, additional key-contacts being fitted to the Solo clavier. Thus there is no further weight experienced by the player when using this device.



* There is a possibility that this was simply overlooked by the consultant (and, presumably, everyone else involved in the planning of the rebuild), and consequently left off the drawings.
#222
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Christchurch Priory organ
July 17, 2011, 10:14:12 PM
Quote from: Barry Williams on July 17, 2011, 10:04:32 PM
In respect of Christchurch Priory, I understand that the organ builder was not permitted to do what was considered appropriate.
 
There was a 'consultant', a well-known organ recitalist, whose views prevailed.  It is those views that appear to have been reversed by the more recent tonal alterations.

I have played it from both consoles.  The tracker console is unpleasantly heavy.  I fail to see the point of having a tracker console in that position. 

I remember the organ as it was when Geoffrey Tristram was organist there.  The sound was glorious; although it got around the building quite well, the the Nave Diapason Chorus was essential for service work.  I think that the Nave Section was softened in the rebuild.

Barry Williams

Barry is quite correct.

I recall discussing the schemes with the then organist and subsequently writing a long letter to him, detailing everything I felt had either been omitted, or incorrectly specified. He then sent this letter to the consultant, who wrote back to me; the gist of his letter was that I was incorrect, and that the organ was going to be a fine instrument.

Interestingly enough, everything I mentioned (and one or two additional aspects) had to be addressed after the organ was finished.

I think that a number of us were somewhat concerned at the blatant waste of money when the builders were compelled to provide an attached console and a second action. We all felt (and still do) that this money could have been far more profitably spent on the tonal side of the instrument.

As part of the process to raise funds for the restoration of the pipe organ, the previous organist (who has his own recording company) produced a CD re-mastered from old tapes of Geoffrey Tristram playing the old Ginn/FHW/Compton/D&R pipe organ. It was indeed a fine sound.

Perhaps not such a motley collection of pipes, after all.
#223
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Christchurch Priory organ
July 17, 2011, 09:17:12 PM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 17, 2011, 03:58:00 PM
What I wonder at is why they didn't simply place the attached console between the main case and the Ruckpositiv case at the front of the gallery... and why design the organ in such a way that one manual cannot be on the same action as the rest? Surely, if Cavaillé-Coll could manage tracker action on a 102-stop, five-manual organ in a large Parisian church, it shouldn't be a huge challenge with a four-manual, sixty-one stop organ in the spacious South Transept of a large Norman monastic church?

I have noted twanguitar's post subsequent to the one I now quote. However, I felt that it was worth clarifying the situation.

The organ of Christchurch Priory is situated, for the most part, on a gallery in the South Transept. Since the building is quite long (I believe that the Nave itself is of eight bays), there is also a Nave Organ. This is placed in the easternmost bay of the South Nave Triforium, behind a separate case. It includes the (partly extended) flue chorus and the extended Posaune and Tuba ranks. One bay further west are the Pedal Bombardes.

Therefore, this section had to be on some form of electro-pneumatic action. This instrument relies heavily on the Nave section - even for normal service accompaniment, as I myself can testify.

In addition, apparently you have forgotton that the main purpose of the Grandes Orgues in a French church is not to accompany either a choir or the congregation, but to provide voluntaries and other (usually improvised) organ music during the services.

#224
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Christchurch Priory organ
July 17, 2011, 09:10:09 PM
Quote from: twanguitar on July 17, 2011, 12:53:44 PMI played it in the company of an organist closely associated with the church (whom I will not embarrass by naming him) shortly after it had been completed.  The tracker console, as I recall it, was not particularly heavy then - maybe it is now due to age and wear.  But I think I'm right in saying that one (the top one I think) keyboard is electro-pneumatic, as it would have been impossible to get to some physically remote stops using trackers.  It is true the tracker console is in some sort of dark cupboard, at least that's what it felt like to me.  And one could barely hear some loud stops such as the Tuba from it.

As a former Assistant Organist of Christchurch Priory (and one who had to put up with the geriatric toaster for two years), I can state that the upstairs console is certainly not heavy as a result of wear - as you have said, it is hardly ever used. Personally, I did find it uncomfortably heavy - even just after it was finished. I have played for a good number of services at both Chichester Cathedral and Christ Church Cathedral  (Oxford), and in neither case have I ever found the action to be heavy, even with all four claviers coupled together. However, at the Priory it was, unpleasantly so - partly due to the fact that the console is positioned in a ninety degree turn from the orientation of the soundboards.



Quote from: twanguitar on July 17, 2011, 12:53:44 PM
The organist told me it was indeed a well known personality in the organ world who insisted on this second console.  This personality was associated with a funding body which, consequently, would not agree to release funds unless it was included in the scheme.  He also said there are electric timers associated with the two consoles, and even then it was interesting to see that they showed how strongly people preferred to play the mobile electric console in the nave.  Also I recall how dusty the tracker console was, which was additional confirmation of what he said.


This is indeed true - although the present organist does like to practise on the attached console. The Priory authorities insisted on the mobile Nave console, largely because of the regular series of Thursday lunch-time recitals; the audience enjoy watching the organist at work.

Quote from: twanguitar on July 17, 2011, 12:53:44 PM
Nevertheless, while one can carp until the cows come home, it was and is a fine-sounding organ and a joy to play from the mobile console at least.  I was taken on a tour of the organ, and I remember thinking that all credit was due to Nicholson's for re-using such a motley collection of pipework and making it sound so fine - AND for finally ridding the church of that awful electronic they had had for so long.

TG

Well, it is true that there are some good points about the organ - not least that it replaced the electronic. However, as originally finished, it was not so fine sounding. I recall the opening recital, where most of us were quite convinced that the artist engaged to play had chosen to confine himself to the Swell Organ, for some reason. It was certainly significantly under-powered.

This was confirmed a few weeks later, when, after playing one of the first lunch-time recitals on the re-commissioned pipe organ, it also fell to my lot to play, as soloist , for the first big concert with orchestra. The programme consisted of the Third ('Organ') Symphony, by Saint-Saëns, and Duruflé's setting of the Requiem. I recall clearly the look of shock and disappointment on the conductor's face when, at the rehearsal, I played the first big C major chord (on the tutti) and he said 'OK, but we need a lot more.' I had to reply that this was all there was. Needless to say, during the concert, aside from places where the organ was played solo, or when the orchestra were playing more quietly, the organ was, quite literally, inaudible.

It is only over the last few years that several costly changes have been made to the voicing of certain stops (and some additions made), that this instrument is anything like adequate for this large church.

Even now, I have to say that I do not particularly regard it as a fine organ. The voicing of the Swell reeds is still odd - and bizarrely, some of the G.O. (particularly the foundation stops) reminds me of the old toaster. Then there is the Choir Organ. This is, unfortunately, neither one thing nor the other. It is not sufficiently robust to act as a foil for the G.O. chorus (and in any case, the schemes of the compound stops are not conducive to such a rôle), yet it is largely too loud for choral accompaniment. The lack of enclosure exacerbates the situation. Fo example, the Corno di Bassetto is too loud for 'lining-out' in the Psalms. In addition, the pointless duplication of certain pitches means that this department is rather less useful than it might have been.

Still, at least it is now loud enough.
#225
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Documentary researcher seeking people enthusiastic about Pipe Organs
July 17, 2011, 12:53:27 AM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 11:46:32 PM
... Admittedly, Vierne himself had some very strange ideas about what should be done to the ND organ, but that doesn't excuse what was done to it long after his death.

Certainly one or two were a little unorthodox - and would probably not have been regarded as positive steps today. (Incidentally, have you read Rollin Smith's excellent book on Vierne?)

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 11:46:32 PM
But at what point of history should one consider the organ to be correct, that played by Pérotin the Great or that played by Vierne, or indeed Olivier Latry and the other current incumbents.

... At what point in history indeed... difficult to say. However, at Nôtre Dame, the organ exists largely as built by Cavaillé-Coll (whatever the modifications made to it), so that would have to be one of the main candidates for the starting point of a restoration of this historic instrument. In my entirely subjective opinion, the more recent incumbents (from Cochereau on) aren't as significant as Vierne, good as they were and are. With the Pièces en style libre, the Pièces de fantaisie, the six symphonies and the Messe Solonnelle (and that's just for starters), Vierne wrote a vast amount of the present repertoire.

The question of to which state a particular instrument (in this case, that at Nôtre-Dame de Paris) should be restored is a valid one. It is, as you say, difficult to decide.

However, I must take issue with you regarding your 'entirely subjective opinion' - Le Comte de Saint-Martin may perhaps not have measured up to the musical stature of Vierne, but this is quite simply not true of Cochereau. One cannot make a meaningful judgement purely in terms of the quantity of compositional output. In fact, not only would such giants of the organ world as Marcel Dupré disagree with you (he proclaimed: 'Pierre Cochereau is a phenomenon without equal in the history of the contemporary organ'), but the clergy and chapter of this great cathedral would also take issue with your dismissive appraisal. It was precisely because they recognised the greatness of Cochereau's musical stature and reputation that they decided, on his death, to return to the pre-revolution custom of there being four Titulaires. They reasoned that there was no single organist in France at that time who was of sufficient calibre to succeed him.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 11:46:32 PM
Might it be sensible to suggest a compromise of a restoration, with a fully-equipped Skinner-style console, with all the more recent additions available to it and electric action for day-to-day use and the restoration (or construction of a replica) of the Cavaillé-Coll console with Barker lever-assisted tracker action and only the stops Vierne had access to? Such duplicate actions (with two consoles) exist elsewhere (Christchurch Priory among others, although I've heard that the tracker console isn't terribly good to play, with the detached electric console downstairs accounting for about 90% of the organ's use).

With regard to the organ of Christchurch Priory, although the reasons behind the decision to build two consoles and fit the instrument with two separate actions, it is true that the attached console is somewhat heavy. furthermore, some of the subsequent additions are not available (for obvious reasons) on this console. To exacerbate matters, there is presently no means of observing a conductor from the attached console.

However, with regard to the organ of Nôtre-Dame, I am unconvinced that there is any point whatsoever in providing duplicate consoles and actions - particuarly when both consoles would have to be placed in the west tribune with the organ.

In fact, Cochereau had the original Cavaillé-Coll stops marked with a red dot on his new Anglo-American console. He also had an electrical device which would annul all the extra stops, in order that players could choose either the full range of the instrument, or the Cavaillé-Coll original. And before you reply to the effect that Cochereau had caused several of the original stops to be altered (particularly the G.O. Mixtures), it is worth remembering that Vierne had also authorised substantial modifications - and would have, given time and money, made further alterations, a number of which would have been somewhat less sympathetic than those which Cochereau effected.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 11:46:32 PM
I would dare to suggest that the Cochereau-era rebuild at ND was driven more by the two factors of neoclassical ideology and Cochereau's demands for his highly virtuosic, florid improvisations (which I find I tire of quickly) than mere necessity for the job required of the organ. Daniel Roth et al don't exactly seem to struggle down the road at Saint-Sulpice, though no doubt the original console and combination action present quite a challenge to the player. Again, I suspect that the dual-action, dual-console solution proposed above would circumvent any such problems at ND.

In some ways the rebuild of the organ at Nôtre-Dame was a child of its time - although it is worth remembering that in fact, the rebuild was somewhat protracted, alterations being carried-out piecemeal almost up to the year of his death.

However, your subjective comments regarding his improvisations invite qualification. May I state, for the record, as one who knows a thing or two about improvisation, both liturgical and in concert (and I wonder how many of Cochereau's you have actually listened to in depth?) that whilst they were certainly virtuosic, they were not florid, in the sense of merely being 'showy' or 'excessively ornate'. It must be remembered that, as documented by those who knew him well, Cochereau had a mission - to fill the cathedral with people and to present the organ as a living inspiration and aid to their worship. A number of French organists at the time stated that, without Cochereau, they would all still be playing to empty churches.

Also for the record, at S. Sulpice, M. Roth is assisted much of the time (as is his own Titulaire-Ajointe), by two registrants, who rehearse with both organists. Registrations are planned and recorded in an A4 ring-binder. I have been present at rehearsal and therefore am fully aware of how difficult it would be to give a recital (or even play a service) on this magnificent instrument, without the regular services of the registrants. In addition, it should be said that M. Roth's own improvisations are of a somewhat different style to those of Pierre Cochereau.
#226
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Documentary researcher seeking people enthusiastic about Pipe Organs
July 17, 2011, 12:12:44 AM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 04:24:52 PM
It would, therefore, appear that the 1981 rebuild was a crime without equal in the organ world: the only others I can think of which come anywhere near are the 1960s rebuild of the Gloucester Cathedral organ and the total revoicing of the Muller organ in the Bavokerk, Haarlem, by Marcussen in the 1950s, who, driven by ideology, zealously removed all nicking from the pipework. It is only in more recent times that scholarship has revealed that this nicking was an original feature of that stupendous, historic instrument and, so, we are deprived of the knowledge of what the organ really sounded like when it sent Leopold Mozart into raptures.

In the interest of accuracy, I should point out that the organ of Gloucester Cathedral was actually rebuilt in 1970-71.

Whilst I am well aware of the controversy which still surrounds the major alteration of this instrument whch took place at this time, I also know it rather well, having been taught on it by David Briggs over a few years. I have also, on several occasions, played it for a number of visiting choirs.

It is easy, with hinsdsight to say that this or that should have been done differently; I myself may have specified a somewhat different stop-list and voicing style. However, to imply that what took place came close to being a 'crime without equal', is both emotive and unhelpful.

For the record, in its previous incarnation, this instrument was neither typically FHW, nor typically Arthur Harrison. Thus there was no particularly compelling reason for preserving the status quo. For example, the G.O. reeds were not Trombe, but a family of Trumpets, speaking on a pressure of 175mm. The Swell Organ was substantially as Willis had left it, in 1898-99. Secondly, the instrument was mechanically unreliable, much of the mechanism being very worn. In addition, the historic case had been quite literally hacked about, not just by FHW, but also by Harrisons, in 1920, when the west face was pushed out unceremoniously, to balance uncomfortably on the parapet of the Pulpitum.

Perhaps at this stage, I should make it clear that I spoke to Ralph Downes at length regarding the Gloucester rebuild. At the time I was writing my degree thesis (in which the organ of Gloucester Cathedral occupied the greater part of a chapter), Downes kindly granted me an interview. We met at the RFH, following one of the 'Wednesdays at 5.55' recitals which were formerly a regular part of the London organ scene. He was extremely courteous and helpful.

Please be in no doubt but that he considered the matter of the Gloucester rebuild long and hard. It was true that he did not like many aspects of the former instrument; however, it was not simply a case of just throwing out the old and replacing all with new. The entire instrument was considered carefully - but, far more than this, the historic cases and their (formerly) speaking pipes, were also given much thought.

Whilst it is easy to point the finger at Downes (for example, for melting down and re-casting many of Cavaillé-Coll's case pipes at Paisley Abbey - in order that the pipe feet lengths should run in inverse proportion to the lengths of the resonators), it is also true that at Gloucester, he showed great respect for the casework and Harris' original 'East' and 'West' Diapasons.

Whether one likes the style of the Gloucester organ or not, it is without question a thoroughly musical instrument. It may be true that the organs at Durham Cathedral or Saint Mary Redcliffe, Bristol will do better justice to Howells or Stanford (although I have played music by both composers at Gloucester quite effectively) - but the inescapable corollary is that the Gloucester organ plays Bach, Buxtehude and even French Romantic music far better than did its predecessor. In fact, there is recorded evidence that many genuine music lovers found the sound of the old organ oppressive and unmusical - particularly when played loudly. I believe it was Norman Sterrett who, writing in The Organ regarding the (then) recent rebuild of the organ of Exeter Cathedral, by Harrisons, described the former instrument in this cathedral - again a mixture of FHW and Arthur Harrison - as often swamping the singers with 'a windy thickness'.

It is worth remembering that these are statements made by people who were actually in these places at these times, and knew these instruments well.

Another consequence of the Gloucester rebuild was a new action, developed for this instrument - electro-mechanical in principle. It eliminated the use of all moving leather parts. I can testify that the rapidity of the response and the rate of repetition was far superior to any other action I had ever played - even prior to Nicholson's restoration.



#227
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Documentary researcher seeking people enthusiastic about Pipe Organs
July 16, 2011, 01:45:21 PM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 12:32:22 PM
... As for David Pinnegar's suggestion of the van den Heuvel at Saint-Eustache in Paris, I'm not sure. Personally, I find its sound to be excessively gritty and unblending - and I find Guillou's playing and improvisation to be self-indulgent rather than approachable. There's too much of what might be termed gratuitous virtuosity there. His influence shows in the organs he's designed - I can't think of one that I actually like, they all sound too harsh to me. Rather, I would look to Cavaillé-Coll's best - Sacré-Coeur, Saint-Sulpice and Saint-Ouen, Rouen. With respect to PCND, the Notre Dame organ has been so mucked about with that its glories are mostly faded - unless and until it's restored to its original state, it cannot, in my entirely subjective opinion, be considered equal to the other C-Cs I've named (although I know Sacré-Couer isn't exactly original - it's not even in its original home). ...

I shall deal with just one paragraph at present - I am expecting visitors shortly.

S. Eustache: I have, at the kind invitation of M. Guillou, had the privilege of playing this monumental instrument. Personally, I found it to be superb - with a wide palette of tone colours and a thrilling tutti. M. Guillou himself I found generous, charming and extremely approachable. Again, as you have said yourself, it is partly about not expecting an organ to do things it was not designed to do. As long as one approaches this organ in this spirit - and does not expect it to sound like a vintage Cavaillé-Coll, then it is possible to appreciate it for exactly what it is - an exciting, colourful and noble instrument.

Sacré-Coeur, S. Sulpice and S. Ouen, Rouen; I agree that these instruments probably repersent some of the finest achievements of Aristide Cavaillé-Coll. However, the first has been modified. It is worth comparing the 1898 stop-list with that following the restoration of 1985. For example, at some point since it was built, the Solo Orgue acquired twelve ranks of mixtures - and the Pedal Orgue additional mutations.

To an extent, I would actually agree with you regarding the instrument in Nôtre-Dame de Paris. However, we would probably disagree regarding the state (or date) to which we should wish this instrument to be restored. Personally, I should like to see it reutrn to its late-nineteen-seventies' incarnation - with one exception: I would retain the new chamade stops which were added in the 1990-92 restoration. I think that it was a great shame that both compound stops on the Récit-Expressif were removed, for example.

#228
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Documentary researcher seeking people enthusiastic about Pipe Organs
July 15, 2011, 10:13:53 PM
Quote from: barniclecompton on July 15, 2011, 07:26:58 PM
One thing the programme MUST avoid in EVERY way is snobbery and things which are seen as "high brow". If the viewer gets a whiff of it, the programme has lost its purpose straight away. It must be fun and entertaining to watch, and at the same time be informative, and show all the areas of the organ equally.
Its got to be something that people havent seen before. Other programmes which have been done about the organ have come across as stodgy, boring etc and havent done any favours. Lets not have this one be the same.

Well - not all of the other programmes were stodgy or boring. Howard Goodall's Organ Works, shown a few years ago on British network TV was both entertaining and informative. He did a follow-up series on the history of the piano, which I found to be equally good.

There is, of course, also the series currently being issued by Priory: The Grand Organ of (insert name)* Cathedral. To be honest, I think that the interest and accessibility of each is somewhat variable. For the average person, who may have only a peripheral interest in the instrument, some are better than others. The DVD featuring Simon Johnson at  Saint Paul's Cathedral includes a 'tour' around the instrument (in the tonal sense). Unfortunately, he chose to improvise on the theme from Harry Potter - which is, arguably, a little out of the age range of most of those likely to be interested in this DVD. Personally, I would rather he had chosen something different - not necessarily plainsong, but just something not so singularly identifiable. I am sure that there will be others who enjoy it, but I cannot help but think that he has possibly limited his market by using this theme so many times during the course of the DVD.

Then there is the edition from Canterbury Cathedral. Like all the other DVDs, the playing is excellent. However, the repertoire, whilst not being too 'populist', perhaps strays too far the other way. I found some of the pieces a little strange, I must admit.

However, I think that there is definitely value in the series, taken as a whole and, for those who have not yet sampled any of them, I recommend some research, in order to see if any of them may be of interest.



* Around six or seven have been completed and released for sale, to-date; the venues include Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, York Minster, Lincoln Cathedral, King's College Chapel, Cambridge, Saint Paul's Cathedral, Canterbury Cathedral and (to be released in a few months) Exeter Cathedral.
#229
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Re: Documentary researcher seeking people enthusiastic about Pipe Organs
July 15, 2011, 06:55:18 PM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 12, 2011, 10:05:41 AM
To be honest, this film would have to avoid the vast majority of church organs. Maybe the odd really notable instrument - like St Ouen, Rouen, which ought to be filmed before it falls unplayable, given its present decline - but otherwise it will have to focus on concert halls and stately homes. Blenheim Palace, anyone?

Not that you are either generalising, or making sweeping statements, here....

I can think of plenty of instruments in either good or even excellent condition in this country - I am assuming that they wish to film instruments here, as opposed to (say) France; it would certainly be cheaper to do so. Commendable though such a project is, I doubt that it will have attracted a fat budget from the programme controllers.

I am happy to post a review which I wrote for a different board (no, not the 'other' one....), detailing suitable instruments on which to record, in the London area, if anyone is interested.

#230
Restoring pipe organs / Re: Pedal Acoustic Bass 32
July 15, 2011, 04:09:08 PM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 15, 2011, 03:59:30 PM
Roger C. Fisher is not, I presume, the Roger Fisher of Chester Cathedral?

So it would seem that RHJ may have been involved in some kind of homosexual encounter and left the UK to escape prosecution for it... and why, I wonder, did the gentlemanly E.M. Skinner use those words?

With regard to your second sentence, I have yet to see any evidence to confirm this.

Ernest M. Skinner was not always so gentlemanly - see my previous post in this thread....
#231
Restoring pipe organs / Re: Pedal Acoustic Bass 32
July 15, 2011, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on July 15, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
Hi

I would recommend David Fox's book on RHJ.  (I got a copy from OHS in the States).  It seems unlikely that he went there at the behest of Wurlitzer.  According to Fox, after contacting several organ building firms, he initially joined the Austin company and was with them 1903-04, before setting up a partnership with a Lewis Harrison in 1904-5.  Note the shortness of all these partnerships!  1905-6 sees him with Skinner - and Fox quotes Ernest Skinner:- "I regret to say that Hope-Jones was with my organization for fifteen months"  The American Hope-Jones organ co. existed 1907-1910, when lack of funds led to a virtual "takeover" by Wurlitzer (who were a long-established firm producing and retailing many types of musical instruments).  As was the case with his other partnerships. H-J soon found himself at odds with his paymasters - Fox goes into a great deal of detail about this, and is widely known, he took his own life.

The homosexual incident has not been proved (and H-J himself refuted it) but seems to be the most likely reason for his sudden departure from the UK.

Other sources of info about H-J Are David Junchen's book "Wurlitzer" - primarily about the cinema organs, but covering the earlier H-J work, including the UK and the subsequent developments of the company.  Roger C. Fisher's book "From Wittal to Wurlitzer" is primarily about H-J's early years, and there was also an article (or short series) in "The Organ" magazine IIRC several years ago.

Every Blessing

Tonyt

Thank you for this, Tony. I found it helpful.

I was interested to read the comment attributed to Ernest M. Skinner. Recently, I have been re-reading back-issues of The Organ. Some years ago, there was a somewhat terse exchange of correspondence between Skinner and other readers, mostly regarding G. Donald Harrison. I gained the distinct impression that, if he thought that he could have got away with it, Skinner would have had a contract put out on Harrison. The stench of thinly-veiled hate phlebotomised from each missive....

The responses were, if predictable, at least occasionally amusing. To quote (I believe) Christopher Dearnley, who wrote to one writer in another periodical: 'You confess to crying over spilt milk, but your letter tastes more of sour grapes....'

And, no, I cannot recall to whom CD had addressed that riposte.
#232
Atheists' Corner / Re: God is like the Organ
July 15, 2011, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on July 14, 2011, 06:00:11 PM
Hi

You may not find contemporary Christian music helpful - that's fine - but please remember that thousands of others do.  It can't be judged by the "standards" of Western classical music - and, for instance, nor can Indian classical music.  Conversely,   classical music can't be judged by the "standards" of pop, rock or indeed any other genre.  This is exactly what I was saying earlier - there is a need to realise that just because "I" don't like something that doesn't mean that it's bad!  Personally I dislike Grand Opera & Classical song - but I wouldn't want to ban - or even criticize - them, nor those who do like such things.

There are plenty of traditional hymns where the words leave a lot to be desired - but most of them have fallen by the wayside, as is already happening with CCM songs from the 1960's - and even more recent ones (and in some cases I say "good riddance").  There are also some CCM songs that I won't use because the theology is poor - but then, the same can be said for at least one hymn in the most recent Baptist church hymnbook "Baptist Praise and Worship"!

There is much good sense here, Tony. I, too, dislike opera (and country and western and - having spent a few years in house churches such as Ichthus, playing either piano or drum kit for Graham Kendrick - contemporary Christian worship songs). As you say, we have no right to ban them, just because we do not like them.

However, I have noted a tendency of the type of person who does like this kind of music, to 'lecture' me on why I should like it, in preference to this old 'boring cathedral-style stuff.' This I find both ignorant and equally offensive. This is an observation - not simply my opinion.


Quote from: revtonynewnham on July 14, 2011, 06:00:11 PM
And as for your last statement - I suppose that's the traditional Catholic influence - but consider what the Bible says:- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—" (Ephesians 2:8) - and also take a close look at the Epistle of James.  We cannot work out our salvation - Christ has done all that's required on the cross.  We have to accept His free gift - and then, and this is where the real work starts, follow His example and study the Bible - and good works should then follow.

Every Blessing

Tony

At the risk of appearing to be the Devil's Advocate, surely Philippians 2:12b-13 ('...work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good ...') exhorts us to do precisely that?

(I am also mindful of the warning not to use the scriptures for one's own ends....)
#233
Restoring pipe organs / Re: Pedal Acoustic Bass 32
July 15, 2011, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 15, 2011, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on July 15, 2011, 01:28:16 AM
However, I have to agree with (Colin Pykett's) assessment of this instrument (which is now in a parlous state). Apart from residing behind a false 'brick' wall, it also contains a rare example of a Sub Quint (21 1/3ft.).

With regard to your last point, I was under the impression that Robert Hope-Jones travelled to the U.S. somewhat urgently, to escape prosecution. I have been unable to discover if this is correct.[/font]

Better that it's in a parlous state than destroyed, it could yet be restored, there or elsewhere. It does sound rather fine on Whitlock's recordings, but I cannot imagine that the wall could help. How does it compare to other well-known Comptons (Chelsea, Fleet Street - though it was built after JC's death IIRC, Downside, Derby, Wakefield etc)?

It could indeed be restored. Sadly, the present sound of this instrument is unlikely to match up to the quality of that on Whitlock's recordings.

I have played the large Compton at Saint Luke's, Chelsea - and actually quite liked it (which may surprise Voix Cynique). Having said this, my own preference would be to change the luminous light-touches for conventional draw-stops. I realise that this would alter the appearance of the console, but I had a nasty experience with the 32ft. reed, which failed to cancel at the end of the Gloria of Howells' Colleguim Regale setting of the Magnificat. For those unfamiliar with this work, this is about as desirable as being stuck in a lift with a dead horse....

I suppose that the stop units could be converted to take LEDs, but I would sooner have draw-stops. Such a change was effected on the Compton console of Hull City Hall by, I believe, Rushworth and Dreaper, around 1985. Allowing for the rather 'busy' stop-jambs, this looks reasonably acceptable.



Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 15, 2011, 12:53:29 PM
As for RHJ, I thought that RHJ went to the US because Wurlitzers had work for him there, while he struggled to obtain it here, and was the victim of a certain amount of ill-informed criticism by organists who simply didn't understand his organs or how to play them (remember the case of the Holdich at Lichfield Cathedral losing its pedalboard - or was it the whole Pedal organ? - because an organist appointed after its installation declared that he would not use any organ's pedals?).

This seems somewhat more plausible. Wurlitzer eventually bought him out, I believe.
#234
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
July 15, 2011, 01:23:39 PM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 15, 2011, 12:37:04 PM
As I understand it (and I may be quite wrong) an 8ft 'Diapason' on a C-C is actually a sort of stopped diapason? I have to confess that I hadn't NPOR'd it...

No - this is incorrect. It is an open stop. The Bourdon 8ft. roughly approximates to a Stopped Diapason.

For the record, where possible, I try to check other sources. The NPOR team do a good job, but naturally they depend on contributors checking the accuracy of their own submissions.
#235
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
July 15, 2011, 02:02:04 AM
To pick up on just one point tonight (since it is now 02:00 and I am a little sleepy)....

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 15, 2011, 01:33:17 AM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on July 14, 2011, 10:49:10 PMSince no organ by Cavaillé-Coll was designed specifically for choral accompaniment (in the Anglican sense), the absence of a Swell Open Diapason is not any great handicap. On my own church instrument, this stop is absolutely invaluable.

Wasn't Blackburn designed for choral accompaniment in the Anglican sense?

Probably not - in 1875. In any case, the style of accompaniment peculiar to the Anglican choral tradition has evolved over many years. When Cavaillé-Coll built Blackburn, aside fron the fact that the repertoire was rather different, he provided (from the look of the paper stop-list) a fairly standard * scheme, with few concessions to English requirements, other than an identifiable 'full Swell' effect - if, indeed, such a combination was even recognised in choral accompaniment at that stage.

Interestingly, this instrument possessed a Diapason at 8ft. pitch on the Récit-Expressif.



* Whilst there was no absolutely standard scheme, in the same way that one might predict a standard H&H scheme for a three-clavier instrument (built around 1920-30), nevertheless, there were some features which appeared regularly in stop-lists of a certain size.
#236
Restoring pipe organs / Re: Pedal Acoustic Bass 32
July 15, 2011, 01:28:16 AM
Quote from: Colin Pykett on April 16, 2011, 10:20:58 PM
.... As for 'Harmonics of 32 foot'. there is a 9 rank example on Compton's organ at St Osmund's, Parkstone near Poole.  Church was C of E but is now Romanian Orthodox.  Organ is protected by Grade 1 HOC.  NPOR http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N07503.  Sorry if I offend Compton enthusiasts, but this is definitely one of the least pleasant and daftest instruments I have ever played, partly because of this stop.  If this had been invented and used by Hope-Jones it would have been loudly and widely derided.  But because it was by Compton (most of whose electric technology and some of whose tonal ideas were purloined from H-J), it has people drooling over it.  (Can anyone explain this phenomenon please?.  Someone whom I cannot now recall surmised that it was because Compton was not gay whereas H-J was, at a time when it mattered more than it does now!  There might be some truth in that).

Best

Colin Pykett

Forgive me if I correct one point, Colin. The former church of Saint Osmond, Parkstone, is now used by the Greek Orthodox Church - not Romanian.

However, I have to agree with your assessment of this instrument (which is now in a parlous state). Apart from residing behind a false 'brick' wall, it also contains a rare example of a Sub Quint (21 1/3ft.).

With regard to your last point, I was inder the impression that Robert Hope-Jones travelled to the U.S. somewhat urgently, to escape prosecution. I have been unable to discover if this is correct.
#237
Organ registration / Re: small / medium size Organ specification
July 15, 2011, 12:49:38 AM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 02:21:48 PM
I've just had a thought - one of my favourite West Gallery-sited instruments - http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D03104 (a truly stupendous instrument, soon to be reopened by David Briggs - see http://www.sacredheartwimbledon.org.uk/event/inaugural_recital_on_the_restored_organ_rescheduled) has a Swell Dulciana Twelfth. This is of very little use in that space - but could such mild upperwork be useful on a house organ? Save space too, what with the narrow scaling.

To be honest, if given the space, I could hardly think of a better house organ than David's Hunter (judging purely by the stop list - I have yet to hear it). I seem to remember David commenting that the Oboe was very difficult to keep in tune, so one might drop or replace that in a hypothetical instrument, but otherwise its plentiful 8ft tone and lack of upperwork would seem perfect.

In a house organ, I would agree that little or no upperwork is desirable. I confess myself slightly puzzled that so many people specified house organs with several mutations - and even 1ft. stops.

This was confirmed last summer, wnem I happened to discover what used to be Cecil Clutton's former house organ. Whilst it had (obviously) been moved to a new location and may have been a little the worse for wear, I have to say that I thought that it was distinctly unpleasant. I do not recall a single stop which I found tonally satisfying. Given that it had been moved to a moderate-sized room, with a high ceiling, I can only imagine the effect in its original home.
#238
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
July 14, 2011, 10:49:10 PM
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
... The Acoustic Bass on that stupendous instrument uses Dulciana pipes for the Acoustic Bass's independent quint rank (the unison being, I believe, borrowed from the 16ft Open Wood) and they blend very well, providing a satisfying soft 32 for when the colossal Double Open Wood is too big. A true flute would be far too prominent - I remember vividly encountering the organ at Petworth PC where the unison was Open Wood and the quint was taken from the Bourdon. The effect was the same as playing on a 4ft flute and Nazard, only further down - no 32ft effect, just a 16ft fundamental and masses of quint.

Although, as far as I know, this is the only such example. However, I can think of many examples where the quint was taken, either from the Bourdon or a separate rank of stopped wooden pipes. Yes, of course it depends on the scale and voicing of the pipes (and the acoustics of the building), but there are a number of examples which are quite satisfactory. The organ of Chichester Cathedral is one; Gloucester Cathedral is another. In fact, the new Pedal mutations on this instrument were most favourably reviewed, following the opening concert (at which I had the privilege of acting as page-turner and occasional registrant to David Briggs). True, they included the Tierce (6 2/5ft.) and Septième (4 4/7ft.) - but the Quint was derived from the Subbass. It is simply not correct to say that 'A true flute would be far too prominent.'

For the record, one of the most effective (partly) quinted 32ft. stops I have encountered, is that on the organ of Saint James the Great, Kilkhampton, Cornwall. In 1892, T.C. Lewis added a 32ft. Sub-Bass. In 1958, Roger Yates rebuilt this instrument as a twenty-stop neo-Classical instrument, adding a French Bombarde to the Pedal Organ in 1962. The 32ft. is 'real', down to G (that is to say, it consists of fairly wide-scaled Bourdon pipes). Below this, it is 'quinted' on itself - but a fourth below. Whilst one may baulk at this (on paper, it should not work); yet, in this comparatively intimate church, with no appreciable resonance, the effect is superb, right down to the bottom note.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
Fair cop on the extra drawstop on the Choir. I also hadn't thought of the possible tuning problems with the Flute celeste! How does yours at Wimborne work? As for the way the Choir and Solo are borrowed - Mercklin often borrowed stops to form a Choir organ, Schulze did something similar with the Doncaster Solo organ... The Hautboy is there for a reason - they can be very useful on the Choir. That on the Ewell Willis (http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D08165 (admittedly an Orchestral Hautboy) could be very useful and blended well with the honky Corno di Bassetto to provide a moderately convincing Cromorne.

You have mis-read my description of the Wimborne flute céleste. We do not actually have such a stop. It is simply a lucky fluke. It is almost impossible to tune the Swell Stopped Diapason 'dead' to the G.O. Rohr Flute - the result, whilst sounding absolutely fine in combination with other ranks, is a pleasant undulating flute effect, which is both restful and useful.

I am sure that one could make a case for all sorts of derivations and borrowings; however, on most English organs, the Hautboy/Hautbois/Oboe is placed in the Swell Organ - where it is also very useful. I have played a number of instruments which possessed an Oboe on the Choir Organ; such stops have invariably been of the orchestral variety - and often not at all the same thing as a Swell Oboe. The Hill/HN&B organ at Saint Stephen's, Walbrook is a case in point. I wish that the former Clarinet had been retained instead.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
A Mixture isn't a necessity when the basic chorus has been voiced sufficiently brightly. I remember reading that one former organist at Southwark Cathedral rarely went as high as a Fifteenth and never used Mixtures and I can well understand why. Full Great to Mixture at Southwark is like stepping under a cold shower - very nice, but not to be used all the time. The reason for the leathered open diapason is that no other OD can give such warmth, power and prompt speech all in one. Schulze's big-scaled ODs are very nice but they do come on rather slowly. Those flutes were intended to be part of the Great, with all Choir stops borrowed, as Merklin often did.

I would dispute this, as a matter of personal preference. In any case, the chorus up to 2ft. in the G.O. at Southwark is not particularly strong on its own - it is when the IV-rank Mixture is added that this chorus comes to life. The same is true, to an extent, at Saint John's, Upper Norwood - or at least was, the last time I heard this in the building.

I, too, have read the description of the former organist at Southwark cathedral. As far as I recall, it did not specifically mention that he never used the mixtures - simply that people 'never heard half of it'. Perhaps you can find the relevant source, in the interest of accuracy.

With regard to leathered Open Diapasons, whist you are, of course, entitled to your viewpoint, to judge from the number of instruments which have had the leather removed and the stop revoiced, it is possible that not everyone would agree with you.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
Look at a good many Cavaillé-Colls - no Swell diapasons. Again, Exeter College Oxford has no 8ft diapasons (though it does have a 4ft Prestant for some reason). Why would you need a secondary diapason chorus on the Swell on a mere 20-rank instrument? The strings would be quite keen (not quite to Hope-Jones' standards) but, again, needn't be unblending: one of my favourite organs, a 13-stop Henry Jones, has a Viole d'Orchestre and a Voix Celeste, both keen, which blend beautifully with the Lieblich Gedact.

To quote Cavaillé-Coll as an example is arguably spurious - the style and quality (I mean aural - not value for money) of the voicing of his foundation stops * meant that a perfectly satisfactory result was obtained. In any case, since no organ by Cavaillé-Coll was designed specifically for choral accompaniment (in the Anglican sense), the absence of a Swell Open Diapason is not any great handicap. On my own church instrument, this stop is absolutely invaluable.




* Again, I am not thinking merely in terms of the G.O. 'four', here.


Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
The thoughts behind this design were to provide a moderately versatile small organ in the Romantic tradition without any pandering to the post-Organ Reform Movement way of thinking. Pretty sounds, yes, seamless crescendo, yes, but, with a Lewis-like 8/4/2 diapason chorus and reeds designed along Father Willis lines, to give power, width and bite, the full organ would be nowhere near thick or dull.

Again, this is a matter of opinion: mine is that your scheme is far from versatile, there being a number of previously mentioned omissions which I regard as somewhat more essential than endless borrowings and derivations.

Your original post made no mention of 'reeds designed along Father Willis lines'; such stops would indeed give power, vigour (my preferred description - I am not sure what is meant by 'width', in terms of organ reed stops) and bite. Salisbury is nothing without its chorus reeds.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
I didn't mention HNB - I said N&B, pre-Hill merger. Moot Hall has more independent Pedal pipework because it's got a hang sight more than 20 ranks - looking at NPOR, even allowing for the Pedal 8fts possibly being extended, and going by the original spec (without the neobaroque alterations), it must have had at least 34 ranks. The same goes for the secondary chorus - quite possible if you're prepared to accept the cost of another 14+ ranks. I shouldn't be surprised if the Mixtures were later too - N&B didn't usually provide so much, and, with a bright 8-4-2 chorus, they wouldn't be all that necessary.

No - but you did mention the instrument in Colchester's Moot Hall, in defence of your argument - which is why I looked at the scheme, and drew my own conclusions. Without further conclusive evidence, your conjecture regarding the compound stops being a later addition will have to remain precisely that - a guess.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
As for Tierces and Twenty-Firsts in mixtures: so what? Many Baroque organs had Tierce mixtures, as Pierre Lauwers will have told you. Trost, Hildebrandt etc... Tierce mixtures and Bach go together fine!

And as I have also commented to Pierre on many occasions, there are plenty of Baroque organs which possessed predominantly quint mixtures - I have, on a number of occasions, supplied firm evidence to support this - with postings of complete mixture schemes.

In any case, the matter of Trost is rather less clear-cut than has been suggested. He only attempted two major projects in his lifetime - and one of those (Waltershausen) had to be finished by another builder. §

Once again, it is a matter of personal taste. If you like the purity of your Bach (arguably) sullied by what I regard as the irritating, reedy jangle of tierce mixtures, then this is an entirely personal opinion - no more or less valid than my own.




§ Trost probably took almost twenty years to build this instrument - the dedication is not precisely documented, but might possibly have been in May, 1741. ...'These historical facts seem very strange when one considers what a significant organ project was involved. In the case of similarly placed organs, such as Zacharias Hildebrandt's organ in the St. Wenzelskirche in Namburg (also a city organ project), there was a crowning completion ceremony with famous examiners (such as Bach and Silbermann) and an opulent feast of organ music. No report of anything of this kind has been handed down to us about Waltershausen'. (My emphasis.)

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
Also, the Harrison-style Harmonics to which you refer contain twenty-firsts for a reason. These were never intended to be chorus mixtures to cap 8-4-2 open diapasons! They were supposed to be drawn with - or even after - the reeds. When one hears a good H&H organ which has such a mixture being played as it was intended to be played, it all falls into place. The reeds can be rather pervasive but lacking in bite without the Harmonics - add the Harmonics and suddenly they've got that missing piece.

If you think that I was not already aware of all this, you have not read my many posts on the Mander board regarding this point. I know perfectly well why Arthur Harrison included both the tierce and the flat twenty-first in his Harmonics. M y rejoinder (as I have written elsewhere, on more than one occasion) is that I regard the tonal design of both his Harmonics and his Trombe to be fundamentally flawed. Incidentally, Lieut.-Col. George Dixon was, I thought originally, a gunnery sergeant - but actually it was worse: artillery. It is highly likely that his hearing had sustained permanent damage - which could easily account for his taste in reeds.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
I've heard this at Tooting (a little-known masterpiece) and Margaret Street and it really works. Don't demand of an organ that which its designers never provided for! A FHW or an Arthur Harrison will never be a Bach organ (even some extremely clever registration and playing never yielded really satisfying Bach at Ewell) but if you play English and French Romantic music on it, it'll work! Oh, and I'm pretty sure Cavaillé-Coll's big Plein Jeus (like the seven-ranker at Caen) often had 21sts in them.

Cavaillé-Coll - flat twenty-firsts in compound stops? No. This is again pure conjecture on your part. He did provide separate stops at 4 4/7ft., 2 2/7ft. and 1 1/7ft. pitch on various larger organs - such as S. Sulpice and Nôtre-Dame, Paris.

I have played for services on the instrument at S. Etienne, Caen - may I assure you that the compound stops do not contain the flat twenty-first.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
Without in any way wishing to sound disrespectful - and I do share some of your tastes, particularly for the best of Walker's 1960s work - I might suggest that your distaste for leathered diapasons, powerful, rounded English reeds and Tierce/Harmonics mixtures is perhaps coloured a little by prejudice.

Disrespectful? No - just plain wrong.

It has nothing to do with prejudice - and everything to do with the fact that I happen not to like the sounds of such stops - and in a number of cases, have found little or no musical use for such tonal extremes.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
I can't comment on your experiences at Crediton, but only suggest that the recent rebuild by a little-known builder (not the original) might not have been the best thing. On the other hand, Michael Farley may be a superb craftsman and voicer - never having encountered any of his work, I cannot possibly comment.

No - but I can. I have played it both before and after the (comparatively) recent work. To the best of my knowledge, Michael Farley's contribution to the tonal side of the restoration, was to provide a 32ft. extension of the Pedal Ophicleide, an 8ft. extension to the G.O. Double Geigen (playable on both Pedal and Great organs) and a new top octave to the Choir Orchestral Bassoon. To my ears, the rest of it sounds pretty much as it did prior to this work. The NPOR survey is wrong on some details - for example, the Swell Mixture has always been 12-19-22 at CC; it never contained a tierce.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
The fact that the instrument was left for many years in only a semi-finished state by H&H also suggests that it might not have been a total thoroughbred. I know what you have also said about Bournemouth - the H&H there has been so knocked about (thinking particularly of the removal of the Harmonics mixture) that I don't think it can be considered representative.

The H&H organ at Crediton Parish Church was only 'semi-finished' with regard to the casework - a not uncommon state of affairs with this firm.

Having previously been Assistant Organist at Saint Peter's, Bournemouth (and having also played it for Choral Evensong last Sunday, for a colleague) , I am only too well aware of the fact that it is no longer representative of Arthur Harrison's work.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 14, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
I make no apologies for being a big fan of Willis, Harrison, Norman & Beard and Hope-Jones. The last remains the most persistently underrated and villified organ-builder and designer in history, which is all the more tragic since few who do him down have ever heard one of his organs. One by one the few survivors are going... Roehampton... Worcester... All Saints Upper Norwood... at least there's one Ingram-built RHJ left in St Oswald, Hartlepool, unplayable since the 1970s and so - thank God! - very largely intact and unmolested, now in possession of a Grade 1 BIOS Historic Organ Certificate. It's high time this instrument was restored (perhaps put some pressure on the local ship-scrapping yards for funding?) and that it was used as the basis of a total re-examination of RHJ's work.

You are entitled to your point of view - but, again, the fact that many instruments by Robert Hope-Jones have either been replaced or altered out of all recognition may suggest that this type of tonal style was of limited appeal.

Having played an example at Pilton Church (before it was altered) and the instrument at Worcester Cathedral (before it was removed), I cannot say that there was even the slightest resemblance between these two instruments - even allowing for the vast difference in size. In any case, since H&H (and in 1978, Wood, Wordsworth & Co.) had several attempts at 'sorting out' that at Worcester, I doubt that there were many tonally untouched ranks left from the Hope-Jones organ.

It may be worth remembering that he was actually trained as a telephone engineer. Whilst this does not in itself preclude the fact that he might have produced some good instruments, I would suggest that those which he did build (particularly those of larger size) were fundamentally flawed in their tonal design - and in fact were nothing more than 'orchestrions'.

When one strays so far from the true chorus structure of the organ, and merely provides a plethora of 8ft. and 4ft. stops, with a number of examples of tonal extremes, I would suggest that such an instrument cannot, by its very nature, be regarded as truly representative.

At this stage, it might be worth returning to the actual topic of this thread. Clearly there is little likelihood of me persuading you to alter your opinions. Conversely (and again, without wishing to resort to being discourteous), there really is nothing you can say which will convert me to your way of thinking.
#239
Organ registration / Re: Minimum specification of small organ
July 13, 2011, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: David Pinnegar on July 13, 2011, 08:36:16 AM
Quote from: pcnd5584 on July 12, 2011, 11:53:59 PM
The JW Walker insrument at Wimborne Minster has such a stop as the only G.O. sub-unison flue. It is, quite simply, superb; and I would not exchange it for a second. It is something of a chameleon, being able to provide a suitable foundation for the full G.O., yet also blending well with the flutes. It is a most versatile stop - even effective played an octave higher as a solo.

Hi!

Interesting. One of Colin Pykett's researches to which some of my posts yesterday pointed looks at the way in which some stops fit harmonics into others. An example of this that he talks about is the way in which a 4ft Principal fits its harmonics into the gaps of the harmonics of the 8ft Stopped Diapason. It's for this reason that on small instruments one does not need two Open Diapasons. One supposes that the Quintadena does this sort of thing in a particularly coloured way setting up the chorus at 16ft pitch giving the instrument the gravitas of a much larger Seize Pieds instrument.

Best wishes

David P

Indeed. In some ways, such a rank is preferable to a Double Open Diapason, which can be somewhat heavy and consequently, of limited use.
#240
Organ registration / Re: Couplers on Pistons
July 13, 2011, 10:51:31 PM
Quote from: Barry Williams on July 13, 2011, 05:04:06 PM
Henry Willis III often provided the device of 'Suitable Bass' which automatically selected matching Pedal stops.

Wilis III consoles seem to me to be very comfortable, but then I am quite happy with Infinite Speed and Gradation Swell Pedals - a controversial matter, but musically useful.

Barry Williams

There is, or at least was, on the old Liverpool Anglican Cathedral organ console, also a piston to add the next more powerful stop on, I believe the Pedal and G.O.
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